Plundering the capital, or capital punishment? QPR v BWFC 17/2/2018

[Lost Leopard Spot]

We had an appalling start. To be where we are now is a miracle and testament to Parky.

???
You can't even see the contradiction in what you write, can you?
Was Parky not there at the start of the season then? Had he perchance been packed off by The Institute of Great Management to do a thirteen week course in How to Become A Miracle and Testament?

[BWFC_Insane]

We had an appalling start. To be where we are now is a miracle and testament to Parky.

???
You can't even see the contradiction in what you write, can you?
Was Parky not there at the start of the season then? Had he perchance been packed off by The Institute of Great Management to do a thirteen week course in How to Become A Miracle and Testament?

He had to beg borrow and steal over the summer and had injuries at the wrong time pre-season. It was an awful run. But it happens. We lost 6 league games in a row under Allardyce, and had other similarly poor runs. Key thing is coming out of them. Good managers do, bad ones - well we've seen what happens.

He's a very good manager. The absolutely best thing we've got at the club. That is my view. The job he's done in the circumstances is remarkable. I was pleased to see an article recently in the football league paper that also picked up on the job he's done under ridiculously difficult circumstances. I'm glad that football in general can see the job he's done considering the tools he's had to work with, even if some Bolton fans can't.

When he goes, unless its on the back of a billionaire takeover, I will guarantee that we'll end up with a far worse manager and obtain far worse results over the following season. You can quote me on that.

[TANGODANCER]

Insaney, not wanting to specifically target you, but can I just clarify something? Is anybody actually blaming Parky for anything? We're what and where we are due to circumstances (and that includes having to sell a player) that Jose Maurinho would have found dire. Wanting the results to change a bit in our favour isn't an "out with the pitchforks, tar and feathers" rallying call, it's facing facts that we need a change of fortune any way we can get one. I don't see/hear any fans certainlt not on here, saying differently. My reference to Rochdale was from a fighting attitude, not their league position (which I suspect you knew) and the fact that we need the same. You don't fight sitting on a stool in the corner and shouting "go away", and that's what we looked like Saturday, but in fairness playing away with ten is hardly ideal. I just want, like most on here, to see a bit of something to cheer. Overcoming the threat of relegation will do nicely for now.

[BWFC_Insane]

Insaney, not wanting to specifically target you, but can I just clarify something? Is anybody actually blaming Parky for anything? We're what and where we are due to circumstances (and that includes having to sell a player) that Jose Maurinho would have found dire. Wanting the results to change a bit in our favour isn't an "out with the pitchforks, tar and feathers" rallying call, it's facing facts that we need a change of fortune any way we can get one. I don't see/hear any fans certainlt not on here, saying differently. My reference to Rochdale was from a fighting attitude, not their league position (which I suspect you knew) and the fact that we need the same. You don't fight sitting on a stool in the corner and shouting "go away", and that's what we looked like Saturday, but in fairness playing away with ten is hardly ideal. I just want, like most on here, to see a bit of something to cheer. Overcoming the threat of relegation will do nicely for now.

Yes, lots of people. Including some on here.

Twitter is a wash with Parkyout nonsense too.

As for fighting spirit, we showed that in bucket loads against Bristol and Fulham. Two top 6 sides (at the time). The problem is, as I said, you can't repeat those performances week in week out. You need more basic ways of achieving results. The other problem is all season as I've repeatedly said games are on the finest of margins. We've won games 1-0 where we and the opposition have essentially had 2 good chances each. We took one of ours they didn't. But the tiniest of things change that. Start of the season some games we lost on those margins. Madine was scoring goals at the right times in some matches to tip the margins in our favour. Little getting sent off on Saturday for instance...had that not happened although we'd been bobbins we were 0-0 in a match away after 60 minutes. We may have nicked a point or even a win and then the story would have been "heroic goalkeeping and defending" as it was against Fulham in a match we could have just as easily lost 3-0 as drew 1-1.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Insaney, not wanting to specifically target you, but can I just clarify something? Is anybody actually blaming Parky for anything? We're what and where we are due to circumstances (and that includes having to sell a player) that Jose Maurinho would have found dire. Wanting the results to change a bit in our favour isn't an "out with the pitchforks, tar and feathers" rallying call, it's facing facts that we need a change of fortune any way we can get one. I don't see/hear any fans certainlt not on here, saying differently. My reference to Rochdale was from a fighting attitude, not their league position (which I suspect you knew) and the fact that we need the same. You don't fight sitting on a stool in the corner and shouting "go away", and that's what we looked like Saturday, but in fairness playing away with ten is hardly ideal. I just want, like most on here, to see a bit of something to cheer. Overcoming the threat of relegation will do nicely for now.

Yes, lots of people. Including some on here.

Twitter is a wash with Parkyout nonsense too.

Well I for one am not blaming him. (I happen to think we could and should do better with somebody else, although there's absolutely no chance of that happening now). But even so I'll reiterate, I'm not blaming Parky.

[BWFC_Insane]

Insaney, not wanting to specifically target you, but can I just clarify something? Is anybody actually blaming Parky for anything? We're what and where we are due to circumstances (and that includes having to sell a player) that Jose Maurinho would have found dire. Wanting the results to change a bit in our favour isn't an "out with the pitchforks, tar and feathers" rallying call, it's facing facts that we need a change of fortune any way we can get one. I don't see/hear any fans certainlt not on here, saying differently. My reference to Rochdale was from a fighting attitude, not their league position (which I suspect you knew) and the fact that we need the same. You don't fight sitting on a stool in the corner and shouting "go away", and that's what we looked like Saturday, but in fairness playing away with ten is hardly ideal. I just want, like most on here, to see a bit of something to cheer. Overcoming the threat of relegation will do nicely for now.

Yes, lots of people. Including some on here.

Twitter is a wash with Parkyout nonsense too.

Well I for one am not blaming him. (I happen to think we could and should do better with somebody else, although there's absolutely no chance of that happening now). But even so I'll reiterate, I'm not blaming Parky.

That's the very definition of "blaming the manager" is it not?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Insaney, not wanting to specifically target you, but can I just clarify something? Is anybody actually blaming Parky for anything? We're what and where we are due to circumstances (and that includes having to sell a player) that Jose Maurinho would have found dire. Wanting the results to change a bit in our favour isn't an "out with the pitchforks, tar and feathers" rallying call, it's facing facts that we need a change of fortune any way we can get one. I don't see/hear any fans certainlt not on here, saying differently. My reference to Rochdale was from a fighting attitude, not their league position (which I suspect you knew) and the fact that we need the same. You don't fight sitting on a stool in the corner and shouting "go away", and that's what we looked like Saturday, but in fairness playing away with ten is hardly ideal. I just want, like most on here, to see a bit of something to cheer. Overcoming the threat of relegation will do nicely for now.

Yes, lots of people. Including some on here.

Twitter is a wash with Parkyout nonsense too.

Well I for one am not blaming him. (I happen to think we could and should do better with somebody else, although there's absolutely no chance of that happening now). But even so I'll reiterate, I'm not blaming Parky.

That's the very definition of "blaming the manager" is it not?

No, it's not. Just like I think there are better players than Madine, even in the position he played, I wasn't blaming him. I'm not blaming any one person, even though I believe there are better alternatives for every single player we've got. What I'm blaming is the financial position we are in that makes it nigh on impossible to replace the lump Madine with somebody better, or get a better goalkeeper, or a better xxx* [*name any position]. My contention about Parky isn't one of "blaming" him- my contention is, sorry was, simple insofar as I believe the most efficient way of upping our game would be through replacing one man - the manager. But now we can't even afford to do that one thing as we've spanked what little cash we didn't have on paying the cleaners etc.
So, NO it isn't the very definition of blaming the manager.

[BWFC_Insane]

Insaney, not wanting to specifically target you, but can I just clarify something? Is anybody actually blaming Parky for anything? We're what and where we are due to circumstances (and that includes having to sell a player) that Jose Maurinho would have found dire. Wanting the results to change a bit in our favour isn't an "out with the pitchforks, tar and feathers" rallying call, it's facing facts that we need a change of fortune any way we can get one. I don't see/hear any fans certainlt not on here, saying differently. My reference to Rochdale was from a fighting attitude, not their league position (which I suspect you knew) and the fact that we need the same. You don't fight sitting on a stool in the corner and shouting "go away", and that's what we looked like Saturday, but in fairness playing away with ten is hardly ideal. I just want, like most on here, to see a bit of something to cheer. Overcoming the threat of relegation will do nicely for now.

Yes, lots of people. Including some on here.

Twitter is a wash with Parkyout nonsense too.

Well I for one am not blaming him. (I happen to think we could and should do better with somebody else, although there's absolutely no chance of that happening now). But even so I'll reiterate, I'm not blaming Parky.

That's the very definition of "blaming the manager" is it not?

No, it's not. Just like I think there are better players than Madine, even in the position he played, I wasn't blaming him. I'm not blaming any one person, even though I believe there are better alternatives for every single player we've got. What I'm blaming is the financial position we are in that makes it nigh on impossible to replace the lump Madine with somebody better, or get a better goalkeeper, or a better xxx* [*name any position]. My contention about Parky isn't one of "blaming" him- my contention is, sorry was, simple insofar as I believe the most efficient way of upping our game would be through replacing one man - the manager. But now we can't even afford to do that one thing as we've spanked what little cash we didn't have on paying the cleaners etc.
So, NO it isn't the very definition of blaming the manager.

Do you think Parky has done a good job here taking everything into consideration?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Insaney, not wanting to specifically target you, but can I just clarify something? Is anybody actually blaming Parky for anything? We're what and where we are due to circumstances (and that includes having to sell a player) that Jose Maurinho would have found dire. Wanting the results to change a bit in our favour isn't an "out with the pitchforks, tar and feathers" rallying call, it's facing facts that we need a change of fortune any way we can get one. I don't see/hear any fans certainlt not on here, saying differently. My reference to Rochdale was from a fighting attitude, not their league position (which I suspect you knew) and the fact that we need the same. You don't fight sitting on a stool in the corner and shouting "go away", and that's what we looked like Saturday, but in fairness playing away with ten is hardly ideal. I just want, like most on here, to see a bit of something to cheer. Overcoming the threat of relegation will do nicely for now.

Yes, lots of people. Including some on here.

Twitter is a wash with Parkyout nonsense too.

Well I for one am not blaming him. (I happen to think we could and should do better with somebody else, although there's absolutely no chance of that happening now). But even so I'll reiterate, I'm not blaming Parky.

That's the very definition of "blaming the manager" is it not?

No, it's not. Just like I think there are better players than Madine, even in the position he played, I wasn't blaming him. I'm not blaming any one person, even though I believe there are better alternatives for every single player we've got. What I'm blaming is the financial position we are in that makes it nigh on impossible to replace the lump Madine with somebody better, or get a better goalkeeper, or a better xxx* [*name any position]. My contention about Parky isn't one of "blaming" him- my contention is, sorry was, simple insofar as I believe the most efficient way of upping our game would be through replacing one man - the manager. But now we can't even afford to do that one thing as we've spanked what little cash we didn't have on paying the cleaners etc.
So, NO it isn't the very definition of blaming the manager.

Do you think Parky has done a good job here taking everything into consideration?

I think he did a splendid job of getting us out of League One. I think he has done a mediocre job of trying to keep us in the Championship. So taking everything into consideration I'm for replacing him, if we could afford to, which we can't, and as we can't I no longer believe it to be worthwhile 'going on about it', so I've shut up about replacing him.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think he did a splendid job of getting us out of League One. I think he has done a mediocre job of trying to keep us in the Championship. So taking everything into consideration I'm for replacing him, if we could afford to, which we can't, and as we can't I no longer believe it to be worthwhile 'going on about it', so I've shut up about replacing him.

So mediocre. Do you think he has the tools to do better and what evidence do you have for that?

I look through our team and I'd say the back three/four look ok at this level.

Keeper? 50:50.

Midfield - Way below standard for the championship.

Up front - None of these players have proven themselves in any great regard to be championship quality strikers. The latest two unwanted by a team not much better than ourselves. I think it shows what we're working with.

I'll repeat it again, staying up with these players would be a miracle. Probably the biggest achievement since I've been watching BWFC. Especially when you sell your top scorer in January and nobody else is even half way to double figures - and we weren't exactly prolific before. None of that is because of Parky - I'm totally certain of it. We're just not really a very good championship side. Which is no surprise when Birmingham (yes Birmingham) spent £17M quid in the summer and are struggling down there with us. We've not spent a single penny. And hadn't the season before either.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I think he did a splendid job of getting us out of League One. I think he has done a mediocre job of trying to keep us in the Championship. So taking everything into consideration I'm for replacing him, if we could afford to, which we can't, and as we can't I no longer believe it to be worthwhile 'going on about it', so I've shut up about replacing him.

So mediocre. Do you think he has the tools to do better and what evidence do you have for that?

I look through our team and I'd say the back three/four look ok at this level.

Keeper? 50:50.

Midfield - Way below standard for the championship.

Up front - None of these players have proven themselves in any great regard to be championship quality strikers. The latest two unwanted by a team not much better than ourselves. I think it shows what we're working with.

I'll repeat it again, staying up with these players would be a miracle. Probably the biggest achievement since I've been watching BWFC. Especially when you sell your top scorer in January and nobody else is even half way to double figures - and we weren't exactly prolific before. None of that is because of Parky - I'm totally certain of it. We're just not really a very good championship side. Which is no surprise when Birmingham (yes Birmingham) spent £17M quid in the summer and are struggling down there with us. We've not spent a single penny. And hadn't the season before either.

It's not all about the money. Really terrible managers would fail to get the best out of a team even if they had all the money in the world.
A manager's job is to pick, shape and motivate the team. Managers are well overrated in what it is they can do overall, but the areas they can influence a game are crucial to a team's performance.
So in some of those areas Mr Parkinson doesn't quite hit the gold standard (in my opinion). He's had the team long enough that if he hasn't forged it to his heart's content then he isn't very influential. Brilliant managers will beg, borrow and steal the players they want - and it's no good saying Parky hasn't been given the resources, because another good attribute of a top notch gold standard manager is that they don't take no for an answer in that regard, they badger, inveigle and influence the owner and board.
Another aspect of a super-duper manager is that they have more than a plan A so that when plan a goes tits up they can attempt to do something about it from the sidelines. I think it was DSB that showed some stsats that bear out the proposition that Parky is a not a Plan B Man very successfully.
(I have to go away now, I have to pick my dog up from the vets...)

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I think it was DSB that showed some stsats that bear out the proposition that Parky is a not a Plan B Man very successfully.

If it was, I don't remember it – I'm not sure how to quantify that. We have gone through periods this season and last wherein the team to open the scoring usually won, for better or worse; it could be argued that rarely gaining points from behind illustrates a lack of Plan B, but it could equally be argued that not all managers have equal resources – Sheffield Wednesday can bring on Jordan Rhodes, we wheel on Aaron Wilbraham, etc etc.

Hope the dog's OK.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I think it was DSB that showed some stsats that bear out the proposition that Parky is a not a Plan B Man very successfully.

If it was, I don't remember it – I'm not sure how to quantify that. We have gone through periods this season and last wherein the team to open the scoring usually won, for better or worse; it could be argued that rarely gaining points from behind illustrates a lack of Plan B, but it could equally be argued that not all managers have equal resources – Sheffield Wednesday can bring on Jordan Rhodes, we wheel on Aaron Wilbraham, etc etc.

Hope the dog's OK.

I though you posted something that showed goals from subs, or turn around from subs where we were amongst the bottom of the Championship. I might have dreamed it, but I don't think I did. And as you a Stat Meister I just assumed it probably came from you.
Anyway it's not every day that one comes up with a new media trend - Fake Stats, it's the future of meedya!
(Dog's ok thanks, she just insisted on doing a spot of amateur limbo dancing this morning, unfortunately under barbed wire. The vets' done the dog equivalent of stomping the divots back in the putting green).

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I though you posted something that showed goals from subs, or turn around from subs where we were amongst the bottom of the Championship.

I'd be interested to see that, especially if I posted it... I don't remember it, but then that's no guarantee these days...

[BWFC_Insane]

I think he did a splendid job of getting us out of League One. I think he has done a mediocre job of trying to keep us in the Championship. So taking everything into consideration I'm for replacing him, if we could afford to, which we can't, and as we can't I no longer believe it to be worthwhile 'going on about it', so I've shut up about replacing him.

So mediocre. Do you think he has the tools to do better and what evidence do you have for that?

I look through our team and I'd say the back three/four look ok at this level.

Keeper? 50:50.

Midfield - Way below standard for the championship.

Up front - None of these players have proven themselves in any great regard to be championship quality strikers. The latest two unwanted by a team not much better than ourselves. I think it shows what we're working with.

I'll repeat it again, staying up with these players would be a miracle. Probably the biggest achievement since I've been watching BWFC. Especially when you sell your top scorer in January and nobody else is even half way to double figures - and we weren't exactly prolific before. None of that is because of Parky - I'm totally certain of it. We're just not really a very good championship side. Which is no surprise when Birmingham (yes Birmingham) spent £17M quid in the summer and are struggling down there with us. We've not spent a single penny. And hadn't the season before either.

It's not all about the money. Really terrible managers would fail to get the best out of a team even if they had all the money in the world.
A manager's job is to pick, shape and motivate the team. Managers are well overrated in what it is they can do overall, but the areas they can influence a game are crucial to a team's performance.
So in some of those areas Mr Parkinson doesn't quite hit the gold standard (in my opinion). He's had the team long enough that if he hasn't forged it to his heart's content then he isn't very influential. Brilliant managers will beg, borrow and steal the players they want - and it's no good saying Parky hasn't been given the resources, because another good attribute of a top notch gold standard manager is that they don't take no for an answer in that regard, they badger, inveigle and influence the owner and board.
Another aspect of a super-duper manager is that they have more than a plan A so that when plan a goes tits up they can attempt to do something about it from the sidelines. I think it was DSB that showed some stsats that bear out the proposition that Parky is a not a Plan B Man very successfully.
(I have to go away now, I have to pick my dog up from the vets...)

See for me, the biggest, most important thing a manager does at a football club is man management. Making the players want to play for him. There is in my mind no doubt the players would run through walls for Parky.

I think tactics/selections etc are overplayed. We've played a lot of systems under Parky and generally each one has been made to work when required. The issue he has as DSB points out is that teams in and around us bring on players who cost millions being paid millions and we've got a lad who should have retired a year or two back. Its hard to change games with that. I will concede that Parky is a fairly basic tactician. But then no more than Allardyce was/is. (I watched his three at the back at Arsenal recently....oh my).

I don't buy the "Parky should have not taken no for an answer". I mean he didn't want to sell Madine. Publically said selling him was "ludicrous". Short of walking out, what else could he have done? He works closely with Ken and I think like Sam and Gartside in the good days, good managers work with their chairman constructively, rather than throw toys out of the pram. His player was sold against his wishes with a few hours of the window left. I think Parky has a say in players coming in, but as is the modern game, sometimes he gets what he is told and not what he would like. I don't for one second believe in his ideal world that Clough would have been the last minute deadline signing. I'm sure he was happy to take Zach over nobody, but with free choice I'm also sure he would have gone elsewhere. End of the day each window he's taking scraps fed to him, rather than enacting what he says as a real concrete long term plan.

At the end of the day, as statistics show us, there is a resource ceiling. There is a correlation (and its strong) between spending and league position, between wages and league position. I'd say in our current predicament we're overachieving simply being in this league. I don't really think that is much of a debate when you see some of the bottom half teams and the quality players who can't even get into their first 11s. Our major trouble always has been that our first 11/12/13 can compete at this level. Once you dip beyond that it starts to look a bit grim. Our other trouble is scoring goals. And that simply hasn't been helped by recent developments.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I think he did a splendid job of getting us out of League One. I think he has done a mediocre job of trying to keep us in the Championship. So taking everything into consideration I'm for replacing him, if we could afford to, which we can't, and as we can't I no longer believe it to be worthwhile 'going on about it', so I've shut up about replacing him.

So mediocre. Do you think he has the tools to do better and what evidence do you have for that?

I look through our team and I'd say the back three/four look ok at this level.

Keeper? 50:50.

Midfield - Way below standard for the championship.

Up front - None of these players have proven themselves in any great regard to be championship quality strikers. The latest two unwanted by a team not much better than ourselves. I think it shows what we're working with.

I'll repeat it again, staying up with these players would be a miracle. Probably the biggest achievement since I've been watching BWFC. Especially when you sell your top scorer in January and nobody else is even half way to double figures - and we weren't exactly prolific before. None of that is because of Parky - I'm totally certain of it. We're just not really a very good championship side. Which is no surprise when Birmingham (yes Birmingham) spent £17M quid in the summer and are struggling down there with us. We've not spent a single penny. And hadn't the season before either.

It's not all about the money. Really terrible managers would fail to get the best out of a team even if they had all the money in the world.
A manager's job is to pick, shape and motivate the team. Managers are well overrated in what it is they can do overall, but the areas they can influence a game are crucial to a team's performance.
So in some of those areas Mr Parkinson doesn't quite hit the gold standard (in my opinion). He's had the team long enough that if he hasn't forged it to his heart's content then he isn't very influential. Brilliant managers will beg, borrow and steal the players they want - and it's no good saying Parky hasn't been given the resources, because another good attribute of a top notch gold standard manager is that they don't take no for an answer in that regard, they badger, inveigle and influence the owner and board.
Another aspect of a super-duper manager is that they have more than a plan A so that when plan a goes tits up they can attempt to do something about it from the sidelines. I think it was DSB that showed some stsats that bear out the proposition that Parky is a not a Plan B Man very successfully.
(I have to go away now, I have to pick my dog up from the vets...)

See for me, the biggest, most important thing a manager does at a football club is man management. Making the players want to play for him. There is in my mind no doubt the players would run through walls for Parky.

I think tactics/selections etc are overplayed. We've played a lot of systems under Parky and generally each one has been made to work when required. The issue he has as DSB points out is that teams in and around us bring on players who cost millions being paid millions and we've got a lad who should have retired a year or two back. Its hard to change games with that. I will concede that Parky is a fairly basic tactician. But then no more than Allardyce was/is. (I watched his three at the back at Arsenal recently....oh my).

I don't buy the "Parky should have not taken no for an answer". I mean he didn't want to sell Madine. Publically said selling him was "ludicrous". Short of walking out, what else could he have done? He works closely with Ken and I think like Sam and Gartside in the good days, good managers work with their chairman constructively, rather than throw toys out of the pram. His player was sold against his wishes with a few hours of the window left. I think Parky has a say in players coming in, but as is the modern game, sometimes he gets what he is told and not what he would like. I don't for one second believe in his ideal world that Clough would have been the last minute deadline signing. I'm sure he was happy to take Zach over nobody, but with free choice I'm also sure he would have gone elsewhere. End of the day each window he's taking scraps fed to him, rather than enacting what he says as a real concrete long term plan.

At the end of the day, as statistics show us, there is a resource ceiling. There is a correlation (and its strong) between spending and league position, between wages and league position. I'd say in our current predicament we're overachieving simply being in this league. I don't really think that is much of a debate when you see some of the bottom half teams and the quality players who can't even get into their first 11s. Our major trouble always has been that our first 11/12/13 can compete at this level. Once you dip beyond that it starts to look a bit grim. Our other trouble is scoring goals. And that simply hasn't been helped by recent developments.

Well you see, we happen to have different opinions. I think I can sum it up quite succinctly.

I think we are hovering on the cusp of relegation because we have a mediocre team playing under a mediocre manager with no resources available from the owner, who has sold his best current asset to keep the club going for a little longer, and that sale will make little or no difference to our overall attempt to stay up.
If we go down it will be because we didn't get the points necessary during the season (all of the season, not just the bits without Madine). If we stay up it will be because the team (and manager) did just enough.

You seem to think that we are absolutely bound to be relegated because our team are worse than terrible and the points we do have are entirely due to an awesome manager who works miracles and one player who is a behemoth of talent, but this player, the only player that counts, has been sold for no reason whatsoever and that sale guarantees we will be relegated and then lose even more money in the lower divisions which will see us Dommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmed forever. (Except that Parkinson might single-handedly perform a miracle and get his collection of scrap players that have been foisted on him in an underhand way to run through walls to gather the necessary points to just possibly stay up).
If we go down it's because the owner is the stingiest owner on the planet and he deliberately formed a team who aren't proper football players, and he sold the only real football player he had. If we stay up it is because Parkinson is the Son of God.

I think this difference of opinions is irreconcilable: we'll just have to live with it. There will be no proof in the pudding - we either go down or stay up, but the reasons why, either way, will still boil down to the opposing arguments of "the team didn't/did do enough" vs "we lost Madine/Parkinson is Ace".