Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:49 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:07 am

Who is the big lad you want to play up with ALF? We haven't got one....
Gee, I forgot, we sold Madine..... :shock: Anybody over six feet has to be a better bet than Alf at winning headers. With the greatest respect for his effort, his job is on the deck hiding in the grass waiting to pounce..
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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:52 pm

But then we come back to the same old problem: to play two up top, we either have to play a back three, a wide-open 4-4-2 (when we struggle enough in central midfield with three of them) or some sort of very narrow 4-4-2 that would presumably stop us playing wingers when Ameobi is our best player and Morais our most consistent creator.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:32 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:52 pm
But then we come back to the same old problem: to play two up top, we either have to play a back three, a wide-open 4-4-2 (when we struggle enough in central midfield with three of them) or some sort of very narrow 4-4-2 that would presumably stop us playing wingers when Ameobi is our best player and Morais our most consistent creator.
So why can't we play something a little more unconventional, something with a bit of fluidity, so ok, if we forget the lump it forward to two big'uns model, and concentrate on the two speedy up front ones why can't we analyse what we've got to create a system in which they can operate.
Basics. Wheater's immobile but a good defender so keep him there. Morais creates so have forward going in the midfield. Ameobi as you say is our best player, so let him be fluid up front and unpredictable to the opposition as to where he turns up. Have Clough up front as the nominal target man but not a 'lump it' target more a pass it target. Have our two fastest as wingers, who I'd say to be zRobinson and Little. We're stuck with Alnwick in goal, but we can dump the real dross - and that includes Derik and Wilbraham. So pick the other four players from the rest of the squad and don't forget the youngsters like Connor Whatsisface.
I'm saying this because if we stick with how we've played the last bunch of games we're going down anyway. Nothing ventured, but properly ventured and not tinkered with, nothing gained. My one major caveat with all this wild speculation is that I don't think Parkinson has the slightest capability of unconcreting his mindset...
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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 pm

If you want to play a fancy, intricate system then that takes intensive tactical coaching and players with a level of footballing intelligence. You can't just switch to that sort of thing with 4 games to go - it's something that has to be drilled into players over a number of seasons. The reason most clubs play fairly rigid systems is because it's much, much easier than playing fluid, asymmetric styles. It's worse when you're then saying we should play players out of position or in roles they aren't used to, as there's more to playing in a position than pace or technical ability. Playing a fluid system is all about positioning and movement, which is exactly what players struggle with when they don't understand a position well. It's also hard to say "play youngsters" when the coaching staff work with them every day and clearly don't think they're ready.

Asking Parky to go for it and play a standard 4-4-2 would be one thing. Asking him to play like Ajax in their pomp is another thing entirely. Putting this lot out without defined and understood roles would be total suicide.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:32 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:52 pm
But then we come back to the same old problem: to play two up top, we either have to play a back three, a wide-open 4-4-2 (when we struggle enough in central midfield with three of them) or some sort of very narrow 4-4-2 that would presumably stop us playing wingers when Ameobi is our best player and Morais our most consistent creator.
So why can't we play something a little more unconventional, something with a bit of fluidity, so ok, if we forget the lump it forward to two big'uns model, and concentrate on the two speedy up front ones why can't we analyse what we've got to create a system in which they can operate.
Basics. Wheater's immobile but a good defender so keep him there. Morais creates so have forward going in the midfield. Ameobi as you say is our best player, so let him be fluid up front and unpredictable to the opposition as to where he turns up. Have Clough up front as the nominal target man but not a 'lump it' target more a pass it target. Have our two fastest as wingers, who I'd say to be zRobinson and Little. We're stuck with Alnwick in goal, but we can dump the real dross - and that includes Derik and Wilbraham. So pick the other four players from the rest of the squad and don't forget the youngsters like Connor Whatsisface.
I'm saying this because if we stick with how we've played the last bunch of games we're going down anyway. Nothing ventured, but properly ventured and not tinkered with, nothing gained. My one major caveat with all this wild speculation is that I don't think Parkinson has the slightest capability of unconcreting his mindset...
Might take something radical like this, but its a huge risk. One that could easily lead to a confused WTF performance.

I get that is what is happening anyhow. But I suspect that Parky will try to recreate the Villa game more than anything else. The fact that we went from that to the next 4 is ridiculous really.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:25 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 pm
If you want to play a fancy, intricate system then that takes intensive tactical coaching and players with a level of footballing intelligence. You can't just switch to that sort of thing with 4 games to go - it's something that has to be drilled into players over a number of seasons. The reason most clubs play fairly rigid systems is because it's much, much easier than playing fluid, asymmetric styles. It's worse when you're then saying we should play players out of position or in roles they aren't used to, as there's more to playing in a position than pace or technical ability. Playing a fluid system is all about positioning and movement, which is exactly what players struggle with when they don't understand a position well. It's also hard to say "play youngsters" when the coaching staff work with them every day and clearly don't think they're ready.

Asking Parky to go for it and play a standard 4-4-2 would be one thing. Asking him to play like Ajax in their pomp is another thing entirely. Putting this lot out without defined and understood roles would be total suicide.
I was only suggesting a 'fluid' style with players out of position because frankly playing a Parky style with players nailed into his system isn't working. And I know that conventional wisdom says that players must practice defined roles and processes, but you know what, kids don't, they go for it, and then are later coached into these static models. I'm not suggesting total anarchy, just a little loosening of the bounds that tie, a little creativity, a tiny step back towards the playground; and fer cris'sake, after all they are Professionals, paid to play, why the fxck can't they loosen up and still know how to kick a ball and tackle, and pass and all the rest of the basics?
But then again, I wasn't serious as putting this forward as a real proposition, because as I stated, even if it could, just marginally, be contemplated and put forward as a plan, well Parkinson couldn't put it into action in a million years - he's too de riguer into the prevailing convention.
Finally, playing with a little fluidity is not the same as "playing like Ajax in their pomp", it's that kind of 'derogatory' comparison that keeps us all nailed into this modern convention. I think sometimes it's worthwhile reading some newspaper reports from the 1880's to see how professional football was played then. One of the first things you'll notice is that most teams also played to a system (widely different to modern formations) but most teams played different systems to each other (formations, seriously, like 2-1-2-5) some however had the nous to allow a fluidity of movement that upset their opponents - and they were the teams that went on to be dominant and through time allowed the rise of teams like Ajax in their pomp, teams like Bolton Olympic for example - a team made up of local tradesmen and two or three Scots/Welsh professionals who'd make Madine look like Ronaldo. They, and others like them led a revolution.
So all I'm suggesting really is a serious review of why all this conventional stuff is failing us. We don't want blinkered minds, do we?
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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:35 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:32 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:52 pm
But then we come back to the same old problem: to play two up top, we either have to play a back three, a wide-open 4-4-2 (when we struggle enough in central midfield with three of them) or some sort of very narrow 4-4-2 that would presumably stop us playing wingers when Ameobi is our best player and Morais our most consistent creator.
So why can't we play something a little more unconventional, something with a bit of fluidity, so ok, if we forget the lump it forward to two big'uns model, and concentrate on the two speedy up front ones why can't we analyse what we've got to create a system in which they can operate.
Basics. Wheater's immobile but a good defender so keep him there. Morais creates so have forward going in the midfield. Ameobi as you say is our best player, so let him be fluid up front and unpredictable to the opposition as to where he turns up. Have Clough up front as the nominal target man but not a 'lump it' target more a pass it target. Have our two fastest as wingers, who I'd say to be zRobinson and Little. We're stuck with Alnwick in goal, but we can dump the real dross - and that includes Derik and Wilbraham. So pick the other four players from the rest of the squad and don't forget the youngsters like Connor Whatsisface.
I'm saying this because if we stick with how we've played the last bunch of games we're going down anyway. Nothing ventured, but properly ventured and not tinkered with, nothing gained. My one major caveat with all this wild speculation is that I don't think Parkinson has the slightest capability of unconcreting his mindset...
Might take something radical like this, but its a huge risk. One that could easily lead to a confused WTF performance.

I get that is what is happening anyhow. But I suspect that Parky will try to recreate the Villa game more than anything else. The fact that we went from that to the next 4 is ridiculous really.
It would be a huge, but in my opinion worthwhile, risk.
But as you say he'll probably fall back on attempting to recast in concrete the Villa game.
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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:01 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:35 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:32 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:52 pm
But then we come back to the same old problem: to play two up top, we either have to play a back three, a wide-open 4-4-2 (when we struggle enough in central midfield with three of them) or some sort of very narrow 4-4-2 that would presumably stop us playing wingers when Ameobi is our best player and Morais our most consistent creator.
So why can't we play something a little more unconventional, something with a bit of fluidity, so ok, if we forget the lump it forward to two big'uns model, and concentrate on the two speedy up front ones why can't we analyse what we've got to create a system in which they can operate.
Basics. Wheater's immobile but a good defender so keep him there. Morais creates so have forward going in the midfield. Ameobi as you say is our best player, so let him be fluid up front and unpredictable to the opposition as to where he turns up. Have Clough up front as the nominal target man but not a 'lump it' target more a pass it target. Have our two fastest as wingers, who I'd say to be zRobinson and Little. We're stuck with Alnwick in goal, but we can dump the real dross - and that includes Derik and Wilbraham. So pick the other four players from the rest of the squad and don't forget the youngsters like Connor Whatsisface.
I'm saying this because if we stick with how we've played the last bunch of games we're going down anyway. Nothing ventured, but properly ventured and not tinkered with, nothing gained. My one major caveat with all this wild speculation is that I don't think Parkinson has the slightest capability of unconcreting his mindset...
Might take something radical like this, but its a huge risk. One that could easily lead to a confused WTF performance.

I get that is what is happening anyhow. But I suspect that Parky will try to recreate the Villa game more than anything else. The fact that we went from that to the next 4 is ridiculous really.
It would be a huge, but in my opinion worthwhile, risk.
But as you say he'll probably fall back on attempting to recast in concrete the Villa game.
Happen to agree with you, in that I can't see how we'll score goals as we are. But the risk may or may not pay off. And I fully understand why Parky and most managers wouldn't do it at this stage.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Mar » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:25 pm

Might just need something as simple as putting Little back in the team ahead of Flanagan. Little has been far more impressive attacking prior to being sent off and was a great contributor going forward.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by GhostoftheBok » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:00 pm

It depends whether you think Parky is holding the players back, or setting them up so that they at least don't get thrashed 0-4 every game. Parky will point out that we're at least going into the last few games with a chance of staying up, rather than being rock bottom and already down.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Mar » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:37 pm

I'd imagine Parkinson is searching for a system that works as opposed to being happy with one that works. Different formations and players seem somewhat panicky. It's understandable that he's getting nervous and making mistakes, it's the same thing the players have been doing.

Find something that worked against Barnsley and drill that into the players for the away game. Proof the system works is that it worked for other teams, players might not necessarily fit the system but at least they would be given definitive roles on the day.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:24 pm

Here's a thought; why don't we play just like we did Tuesday except a bit better, you know, sort of Alf be half a second quicker in getting his shot away with the goal at his mercy early on, our sixteen stabs at a goal chance with one going in, our defence wakes up a bit and stops the free shooting gallery, Clough be awake to the fact that you don't get time for a ready-steady-go before somebody grabs the ball off you and breaks to score. Take care of a few things, be a bit more clinical and hey, we might just win (and we're not playing a top six club in Barnsley) . Forget magical systems, play football with a bit of passion and...who knows?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:13 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:24 pm
Here's a thought; why don't we play just like we did Tuesday except a bit better, you know, sort of Alf be half a second quicker in getting his shot away with the goal at his mercy early on, our sixteen stabs at a goal chance with one going in, our defence wakes up a bit and stops the free shooting gallery, Clough be awake to the fact that you don't get time for a ready-steady-go before somebody grabs the ball off you and breaks to score. Take care of a few things, be a bit more clinical and hey, we might just win (and we're not playing a top six club in Barnsley) . Forget magical systems, play football with a bit of passion and...who knows?
Well I kind of was saying that but in a completely different way... :wink:
I wasn't proposing any particular magical system. What I was doing was berating our reliance on fixed conventional systems that aren't working for us. I was suggesting that we become more 'fluid'. I'll take more better, or more alert, or more clinical, or more awake, or more quicker, or more all of the above - which to be frank pretty much translates to me as more fluid.
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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:05 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:13 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:24 pm
Here's a thought; why don't we play just like we did Tuesday except a bit better, you know, sort of Alf be half a second quicker in getting his shot away with the goal at his mercy early on, our sixteen stabs at a goal chance with one going in, our defence wakes up a bit and stops the free shooting gallery, Clough be awake to the fact that you don't get time for a ready-steady-go before somebody grabs the ball off you and breaks to score. Take care of a few things, be a bit more clinical and hey, we might just win (and we're not playing a top six club in Barnsley) . Forget magical systems, play football with a bit of passion and...who knows?
Well I kind of was saying that but in a completely different way... :wink:
I wasn't proposing any particular magical system. What I was doing was berating our reliance on fixed conventional systems that aren't working for us. I was suggesting that we become more 'fluid'. I'll take more better, or more alert, or more clinical, or more awake, or more quicker, or more all of the above - which to be frank pretty much translates to me as more fluid.
So we're in agreement that they need to buck their ideas up then? :lol:
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: Lion tamers or clowns? Bolton v Millwall Tuesday Apr 10th 8 pm. .

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:11 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:05 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:13 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:24 pm
Here's a thought; why don't we play just like we did Tuesday except a bit better, you know, sort of Alf be half a second quicker in getting his shot away with the goal at his mercy early on, our sixteen stabs at a goal chance with one going in, our defence wakes up a bit and stops the free shooting gallery, Clough be awake to the fact that you don't get time for a ready-steady-go before somebody grabs the ball off you and breaks to score. Take care of a few things, be a bit more clinical and hey, we might just win (and we're not playing a top six club in Barnsley) . Forget magical systems, play football with a bit of passion and...who knows?
Well I kind of was saying that but in a completely different way... :wink:
I wasn't proposing any particular magical system. What I was doing was berating our reliance on fixed conventional systems that aren't working for us. I was suggesting that we become more 'fluid'. I'll take more better, or more alert, or more clinical, or more awake, or more quicker, or more all of the above - which to be frank pretty much translates to me as more fluid.
So we're in agreement that they need to buck their ideas up then? :lol:
Yup.
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