A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:09 pm

palindromeofbolton wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:55 pm
Kenny speaks:
There has been a great deal of comment about the defensive strategy and team setup recently and we have taken this on board and having discussed this with the manager, l can assure you, that there will be a positive and offensive line up against Nottingham Forest this Sunday.
https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2018/april/ ... chairman7/
Not sure that in itself means much apart from sabre rattling and telling Forest what we plan. Knowing when to attack and when not and having a solid game plan is more relevant than leaving ourselves open at the back (as if we would). Be interesting to see what line up that will be. Marc Iles, Ben, Alf and Noone apart, rated the whole lot of them as 3 (Sammi 3.5) yesterday. Magic potion time?
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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Athertonian » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:14 pm

It doesn't sound good when the Chairman tells the manager how to set up his side?

I wouldn't blame parky should he walk away.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Peter Thompson » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:20 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:14 pm
It doesn't sound good when the Chairman tells the manager how to set up his side?

I wouldn't blame parky should he walk away.
I'd do fcuking cartwheels if he walked away....

I suspect ken would too, as it would save him a bit of cash I suspect

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Athertonian » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 pm

From what I have read and heard I now believe Parkinson will resign after Forest game. The chanting of anti Parkinson at Burton could be heard all over the ground and it wasn't just any chanting. The abuse hurled towards him was diabolical. He's had a smooth ride up to now and I doubt hell hang around for next term.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:27 pm

Athertonian wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 pm
From what I have read and heard I now believe Parkinson will resign after Forest game.
Well I genuinely hope he can resign having kept us up – he can, if he likes, see it as two fingers, but I don't mind. Even if he kept us up I think I'd still like to see him go. I get that he's been under special measures and I thank him for getting us promoted but for such a crucial game to prompt such a tin-eared selection and god-awful performance... I don't think there's any coming back from that.

However, he strikes me as rather hardier (read: stubborn) than to resign because somebody shouted at him.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:34 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:27 pm
Athertonian wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 pm
From what I have read and heard I now believe Parkinson will resign after Forest game.
Well I genuinely hope he can resign having kept us up – he can, if he likes, see it as two fingers, but I don't mind. Even if he kept us up I think I'd still like to see him go. I get that he's been under special measures and I thank him for getting us promoted but for such a crucial game to prompt such a tin-eared selection and god-awful performance... I don't think there's any coming back from that.

However, he strikes me as rather hardier (read: stubborn) than to resign because somebody shouted at him.
He got it massively wrong at Burton. And yes I think his time is now up.

However, that shouldn't deflect from the players. However you are setup, however much the manager wants to contain teams, there is no excuses, no excuses for what they did. And the ire is rightly mainly directed towards them.

What on earth has happened from Villa (a battling gutsy performance that had followed similar efforts at Reading and Sheffield Weds) to now.....someone in the club HAS to answer how on earth we've gone from that to spineless and clearly not wanting to wear the shirt displays....

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:46 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:34 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:27 pm
Athertonian wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 pm
From what I have read and heard I now believe Parkinson will resign after Forest game.
Well I genuinely hope he can resign having kept us up – he can, if he likes, see it as two fingers, but I don't mind. Even if he kept us up I think I'd still like to see him go. I get that he's been under special measures and I thank him for getting us promoted but for such a crucial game to prompt such a tin-eared selection and god-awful performance... I don't think there's any coming back from that.

However, he strikes me as rather hardier (read: stubborn) than to resign because somebody shouted at him.
He got it massively wrong at Burton. And yes I think his time is now up.

However, that shouldn't deflect from the players. However you are setup, however much the manager wants to contain teams, there is no excuses, no excuses for what they did. And the ire is rightly mainly directed towards them.

What on earth has happened from Villa (a battling gutsy performance that had followed similar efforts at Reading and Sheffield Weds) to now.....someone in the club HAS to answer how on earth we've gone from that to spineless and clearly not wanting to wear the shirt displays....
Most of the players aren't good enough, I agree. But the manager sets the tone. And all that gritty determination he's transmitted in the past has collapsed. I understand why you're thinking it's "something behind the scenes" - that's an entirely natural hypothesis that conjures up a magic answer. But whatever else has gone on, however (de)motivated the players, he chose an insanely negative team for a game in which a win would have more or less seen us safe. He got it so howlingly wrong, both intellectually and emotionally, that he's lost the backing of many many fans – and quite possibly the players. To misquote Gareth Southgate on Eriksson, we needed Winston Churchill and we got Neville Chamberlain – except instead of trying to delay inevitable war by appeasing a mighty warlike nation, we played for a draw at a team who've been shit all season.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:49 am

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:46 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:34 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:27 pm
Athertonian wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 pm
From what I have read and heard I now believe Parkinson will resign after Forest game.
Well I genuinely hope he can resign having kept us up – he can, if he likes, see it as two fingers, but I don't mind. Even if he kept us up I think I'd still like to see him go. I get that he's been under special measures and I thank him for getting us promoted but for such a crucial game to prompt such a tin-eared selection and god-awful performance... I don't think there's any coming back from that.

However, he strikes me as rather hardier (read: stubborn) than to resign because somebody shouted at him.
He got it massively wrong at Burton. And yes I think his time is now up.

However, that shouldn't deflect from the players. However you are setup, however much the manager wants to contain teams, there is no excuses, no excuses for what they did. And the ire is rightly mainly directed towards them.

What on earth has happened from Villa (a battling gutsy performance that had followed similar efforts at Reading and Sheffield Weds) to now.....someone in the club HAS to answer how on earth we've gone from that to spineless and clearly not wanting to wear the shirt displays....
Most of the players aren't good enough, I agree. But the manager sets the tone. And all that gritty determination he's transmitted in the past has collapsed. I understand why you're thinking it's "something behind the scenes" - that's an entirely natural hypothesis that conjures up a magic answer. But whatever else has gone on, however (de)motivated the players, he chose an insanely negative team for a game in which a win would have more or less seen us safe. He got it so howlingly wrong, both intellectually and emotionally, that he's lost the backing of many many fans – and quite possibly the players. To misquote Gareth Southgate on Eriksson, we needed Winston Churchill and we got Neville Chamberlain – except instead of trying to delay inevitable war by appeasing a mighty warlike nation, we played for a draw at a team who've been shit all season.
I'm not doubting that. I'm simply asking why our players have packed up, given up and cannot raise any energy or motivation at all.

The team that we sent out on Saturday didn't try. It was the wrong selection (entirely), but the main reason was 11 "men" were on that pitch in a yellow shirt and goodness only knows what was in white shirts. They could not be bothered. Frankly apart from perhaps 45 minutes at Barnsley they haven't been bothered since Villa. That is some turnaround.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Hoboh » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:18 am

Buying a ticket for this game is akin to buying a berth on the Titanic's maiden voyage.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Athertonian » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:09 pm

As much as I don't want to attend on Sunday, watching the Forest fans goading us with relegation chants I will be there. From a personal point, I can't see any squad member producing a goal.

I have resigned myself to the fact it will be 3rd tier football again. Will I get a season ticket? Not this time.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:12 pm

Players should be made to watch this every day until the Forest game.

And every day over the fecking summer.

Shithouses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiEFPysdX84

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:51 pm

throwawayboltonian wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:48 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:46 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:34 am
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:27 pm
Athertonian wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:00 pm
From what I have read and heard I now believe Parkinson will resign after Forest game.
Well I genuinely hope he can resign having kept us up – he can, if he likes, see it as two fingers, but I don't mind. Even if he kept us up I think I'd still like to see him go. I get that he's been under special measures and I thank him for getting us promoted but for such a crucial game to prompt such a tin-eared selection and god-awful performance... I don't think there's any coming back from that.

However, he strikes me as rather hardier (read: stubborn) than to resign because somebody shouted at him.
He got it massively wrong at Burton. And yes I think his time is now up.

However, that shouldn't deflect from the players. However you are setup, however much the manager wants to contain teams, there is no excuses, no excuses for what they did. And the ire is rightly mainly directed towards them.

What on earth has happened from Villa (a battling gutsy performance that had followed similar efforts at Reading and Sheffield Weds) to now.....someone in the club HAS to answer how on earth we've gone from that to spineless and clearly not wanting to wear the shirt displays....
Most of the players aren't good enough, I agree. But the manager sets the tone. And all that gritty determination he's transmitted in the past has collapsed. I understand why you're thinking it's "something behind the scenes" - that's an entirely natural hypothesis that conjures up a magic answer. But whatever else has gone on, however (de)motivated the players, he chose an insanely negative team for a game in which a win would have more or less seen us safe. He got it so howlingly wrong, both intellectually and emotionally, that he's lost the backing of many many fans – and quite possibly the players. To misquote Gareth Southgate on Eriksson, we needed Winston Churchill and we got Neville Chamberlain – except instead of trying to delay inevitable war by appeasing a mighty warlike nation, we played for a draw at a team who've been shit all season.
Summed up exactly how I feel DSB. Liked Parky, sympathised with is situation, but the way he's set us up April onwards has caused that to quickly evaporate.
Against Villa he started with a midfield of Derik, Henry and Pratley. With Taylor and Flanagan at full back.

How has he changed since? The setup hasn't changed, the performances and results have.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:55 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:51 pm
Against Villa he started with a midfield of Derik, Henry and Pratley. With Taylor and Flanagan at full back.

How has he changed since? The setup hasn't changed, the performances and results have.
Villa were third. Burton were second-bottom.

I'm not saying we should go all-out attack against everyone. Which is why I said after Barnsley that I hoped we didn't play the same way v Wolves in case it affected his judgement for the far more important Burton game. It's horses for courses. For this course, after this spell of results, against this opponent, with this bunch of players who couldn't get a clean sheet in a hotel laundry, and fans who were desperate to see us make a fist of it, he got it utterly howlingly wrong.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:59 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:55 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:51 pm
Against Villa he started with a midfield of Derik, Henry and Pratley. With Taylor and Flanagan at full back.

How has he changed since? The setup hasn't changed, the performances and results have.
Villa were third. Burton were second-bottom.

I'm not saying we should go all-out attack against everyone. Which is why I said after Barnsley that I hoped we didn't play the same way v Wolves in case it affected his judgement for the far more important Burton game. It's horses for courses. For this course, after this spell of results, against this opponent, with this bunch of players who couldn't get a clean sheet in a hotel laundry, and fans who were desperate to see us make a fist of it, he got it utterly howlingly wrong.
I get that. But anyone who thinks the tactics radically changed in two weeks are wrong.

I repeat, how did we go from scraping results out fairly consistently to this? I don't believe we're losing entirely because of tactics...we won against Villa using the same sort of team. We got points away from home using a similar setup.

What has happened is the fight has left the group....I don't know why. As tempting as it is to blame the manager (who is most certainly not blameless) I rather feel there needs to be a deeper examination of what has gone wrong.

We're not trying. Tactics and selections might be relevant if we saw a team busting a gut and coming up short. But they stopped busting a gut during the two week break it seems....I heard that Pratley and Henry haven't been fully fit, which might explain some of it. But we're not the same team as we were then and I don't think tactical issues come close to explaining why.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm

If the tactics aren't working, and the manager sticks to them, it's his fault.

If he can't get the players playing for him, it's his fault.

To quote Les McQueen, it's a shit business.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:09 pm

Not even a glimmer of an excuse, just a possibility that "might" have affected things, the Pirelli Stadiu has a capacity of 7,000, that's 20,000 less than the Macron, (which rarely sees more than 15,000 granted) ie more like playing a cup match away to a lower league team? As I said, not an excuse, but maybe if we'd been at home.........ah, that "if" again.
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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:11 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm
If the tactics aren't working, and the manager sticks to them, it's his fault.

If he can't get the players playing for him, it's his fault.

To quote Les McQueen, it's a shit business.
You're in danger of slipping into modern football fan binary here. I'm not saying Parkinson should stay.

I'm asking what has happened to go from a team fighting for the cause to a team that is not bothering to turn up? That doesn't happen because the manager plays a defensive midfield player too many - as it didn't happen before.

He picked a disastrous team at Burton. The players he picked were still more than able of making a fight of the game. Of defending well, scrapping trying to pick up set pieces. They didn't bother turning up.

Is the argument really, honestly that he could motivate them before the international break but after suddenly lost the ability to? Or is it perhaps something else?

I'd change managers after Sunday. But I'd also get rid of all the players too. You might exempt Noone and Alnwick from that since Alnwick has done little wrong and Noone is at least trying (the only outfield player to do so on Saturday) . The rest though, aren't exactly new to failure or bottling it with us, or playing like pathetic limp losers. Clean sweep, start again. It's going to be painful but at least that way we don't have the stench of failure round the place.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by Dave Sutton's barnet » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:43 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:11 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm
If the tactics aren't working, and the manager sticks to them, it's his fault.

If he can't get the players playing for him, it's his fault.

To quote Les McQueen, it's a shit business.
You're in danger of slipping into modern football fan binary here. I'm not saying Parkinson should stay.

I'm asking what has happened to go from a team fighting for the cause to a team that is not bothering to turn up? That doesn't happen because the manager plays a defensive midfield player too many - as it didn't happen before.

He picked a disastrous team at Burton. The players he picked were still more than able of making a fight of the game. Of defending well, scrapping trying to pick up set pieces. They didn't bother turning up.

Is the argument really, honestly that he could motivate them before the international break but after suddenly lost the ability to? Or is it perhaps something else?

I'd change managers after Sunday. But I'd also get rid of all the players too. You might exempt Noone and Alnwick from that since Alnwick has done little wrong and Noone is at least trying (the only outfield player to do so on Saturday) . The rest though, aren't exactly new to failure or bottling it with us, or playing like pathetic limp losers. Clean sweep, start again. It's going to be painful but at least that way we don't have the stench of failure round the place.
Fair enough. But no, my argument isn't "something in the shadows" which is unprovable and thus irrefutable. My argument is that he picked the wrong team for that game. For this fan – one who's backed Parky a lot when he was widely unpopular, who's forgiven him a lot of questionable actions, who's genuinely hoped he has the answers - that was the final straw, the loss of belief that the guy knows what he's doing.

It's a bit like on 28 Aug 2012 at Crawley. Coyle had been unpopular for months but that was the night my patience snapped - when he decided that the best way to combat the home side, 1-0 down but starting to boss the midfield, was to substitute Mark Davies for Kevin Davies, thus emptying the midfield and allowing them to score two late goals. I mean I'd long joined the chorus (led it, at times) saying that Coyle's substitutions, particularly of Muamba, were wrong-headed – but at that point I suddenly knew I was watching an incorrigible fantasist, and that No Good Would Come Of It. I got exactly that feeling at 2pm on Saturday. I felt so sickened that I had to go for a long walk. (Genuinely - two laps of Leverhulme Park. But you can't escape the mobile-app updates, and by the time I got back I already knew it was over.)

I get your point – something's gone wrong. You could combine two popular unprovable conspiracy theories by saying it must be something to do with Zach Clough. You might even be right. Clearly the players are not playing to the same level. But using Occam's razor, and cutting down on the number of assumptions in any given hypothesis, I'd say he has just picked the wrong team too many times. Some of that is tactical, some of it is personnel-based, some of it fitness-based (Karl Henry seems to be a shambling mess). But he's picked the wrong team too many times - hence mid-game changes in the last three away games at least - and this was the wrongest of the wrong.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:07 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:43 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:11 pm
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:02 pm
If the tactics aren't working, and the manager sticks to them, it's his fault.

If he can't get the players playing for him, it's his fault.

To quote Les McQueen, it's a shit business.
You're in danger of slipping into modern football fan binary here. I'm not saying Parkinson should stay.

I'm asking what has happened to go from a team fighting for the cause to a team that is not bothering to turn up? That doesn't happen because the manager plays a defensive midfield player too many - as it didn't happen before.

He picked a disastrous team at Burton. The players he picked were still more than able of making a fight of the game. Of defending well, scrapping trying to pick up set pieces. They didn't bother turning up.

Is the argument really, honestly that he could motivate them before the international break but after suddenly lost the ability to? Or is it perhaps something else?

I'd change managers after Sunday. But I'd also get rid of all the players too. You might exempt Noone and Alnwick from that since Alnwick has done little wrong and Noone is at least trying (the only outfield player to do so on Saturday) . The rest though, aren't exactly new to failure or bottling it with us, or playing like pathetic limp losers. Clean sweep, start again. It's going to be painful but at least that way we don't have the stench of failure round the place.
Fair enough. But no, my argument isn't "something in the shadows" which is unprovable and thus irrefutable. My argument is that he picked the wrong team for that game. For this fan – one who's backed Parky a lot when he was widely unpopular, who's forgiven him a lot of questionable actions, who's genuinely hoped he has the answers - that was the final straw, the loss of belief that the guy knows what he's doing.

It's a bit like on 28 Aug 2012 at Crawley. Coyle had been unpopular for months but that was the night my patience snapped - when he decided that the best way to combat the home side, 1-0 down but starting to boss the midfield, was to substitute Mark Davies for Kevin Davies, thus emptying the midfield and allowing them to score two late goals. I mean I'd long joined the chorus (led it, at times) saying that Coyle's substitutions, particularly of Muamba, were wrong-headed – but at that point I suddenly knew I was watching an incorrigible fantasist, and that No Good Would Come Of It. I got exactly that feeling at 2pm on Saturday. I felt so sickened that I had to go for a long walk. (Genuinely - two laps of Leverhulme Park. But you can't escape the mobile-app updates, and by the time I got back I already knew it was over.)

I get your point – something's gone wrong. You could combine two popular unprovable conspiracy theories by saying it must be something to do with Zach Clough. You might even be right. Clearly the players are not playing to the same level. But using Occam's razor, and cutting down on the number of assumptions in any given hypothesis, I'd say he has just picked the wrong team too many times. Some of that is tactical, some of it is personnel-based, some of it fitness-based (Karl Henry seems to be a shambling mess). But he's picked the wrong team too many times - hence mid-game changes in the last three away games at least - and this was the wrongest of the wrong.
Could it also be that with Henry not fully fit, Pratley also struggling that we're at the same point we were at the start of the season? If you look at then and now...at the start Henry came in and offered some stability and turned us round.

Perhaps we're reliant on a few key players we cannot cope without and if Henry isn't fit or his legs have "gone" perhaps we're back to where we were at the start?

I totally agree his team selection at Burton was about as bad as you can get. But I still maintain there is more to our decline over the past 7 games than simply who the manager picks. Had the team not dropped off from Villa I dare say he'd not have made changes as he has.

I certainly think something has happened, perhaps it is as simple as fitness catching up with us and the manager being unable to adapt.

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Re: A survival party brewing, or will we be drowning our sorrows? Burton v BWFC 28/4/2018 3pm

Post by palindromeofbolton » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:00 pm

Very much a technicality this (in terms of whether Parky walks or is sacked - and that's *if* he goes of course), but isn't he on a rolling contract? So it's not going to hurt Kenneth's pocket to sack him, and PP won't get a decent pay-off if he's sacked.

This means very little in the great scheme of things other than I can hear a "mutual agreement" playing out...

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