Racism - Elias Kachunga

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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:55 am

officer_dibble wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:41 am
No, you misunderstand me. I mean because coverage and condemnation is so widespread (rightly) it makes it easier for young/stupid/naive people to say something hurtful when an opposition player winds them up - they know what will hurt them. Not excusing it at all.
I agree Dibs. I understood where you we coming from.
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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:05 pm

Monty's signature, if he'll excuse me using it, about sums it up..!

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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:47 pm

Racism is a massive societal issue. Social media is merely the conduit. Its NOT the problem nor is it the solution. Yes SM companies need to do more absolutely. All the ideas around controlling that and ensuring anonymous accounts are harder or managed are absolutely right - making it accountable is the way forward. BUT that's not addressing the actual problem. We have growing racism in our society. As does quite a few parts of the Western world. You can theorise what caused it but for me its fairly obvious that the political discourse and voices we've allowed to have a bigger and bigger impact on such discourse over the last 20 and in particular the last 10 years are the major reason. We've now got people defending racism on the basis of 'its all them BLM wokies who've provoked it'. I've seen that argument countless times. Or blame Blair or the EU or Cameron - its all 'their fault' for trying to stop racism. How very.....Nazi that sort of thing is - because of course that's exactly the tactic used in the late 20's early 30's - label anyone who points out how unpleasant you are a 'Commie bastard' and then blame them for everything (even though there are relatively few actual Commies then and now).

So as a society we've had this slow creep of people feeling emboldened and enabled. After all if you can have posters of refugees from a certain country to win a vote - then we know that half the population will shake their heads and tut but do little else about it. When you have a government with such a terrible history in their statements and actions - you know more and more people feel emboldened.

And we come to the final defence 'I'm not racist you are just changing the definition of racism'. No, nobody has even done that. What made you racist in 1955 still applies. Its just that people rightly are probably less likely to tolerate it. And we've all learned over 70 years how to better behave around people from other races and cultures. Or we'd hope to have. Racism has never ever ever just been about 'race hate'. You don't have to want genocide to be a racist. You don't have to actually hate another race to be a racist. So saying something to someone purely because of their race, religion, culture, background whatever is racism. If you can't accept that then I'd like to say you don't really belong in Britain - but that's the problem - how can you have a sensible and civilised welcoming country when you have leaders who have, lets be honest, been overtly racist historically? And not even apologise for it? How can you?

And how can we as a society tackle it when swathes of people across the Western world are indoctrinated with these thoughts by the very people we look to for guidance and help with these issues?

The only way out is for everyone to take responsibility in the way Bolton fans on the whole seem to have done and stand up for what is right. Applaud the kneeling - loudly. Back the players who receive abuse and show them that even though its an emboldened one, its still a minority. Don't hide behind 'its them not me' - accept that we're all part of this problem and also all part of the fix. Be better people than our leaders (not hard) and educate those who need it.

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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:14 pm

Not disagreeing Insano, but my addition is that it isn't a western problem rather than a western one. My own personal experience is that racism is even worse in some non-western parts of the world and I don't mean because it is just more overt. We undoubtedly have an issue in our society, starting with politicians, but I think our problem here in the UK is more to do with privilege and a sense of misplaced superiority.

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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:49 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:14 pm
Not disagreeing Insano, but my addition is that it isn't a western problem rather than a western one. My own personal experience is that racism is even worse in some non-western parts of the world and I don't mean because it is just more overt. We undoubtedly have an issue in our society, starting with politicians, but I think our problem here in the UK is more to do with privilege and a sense of misplaced superiority.
Oh I agree. Its not a Western issue at all. It is as you say far worse elsewhere. But its getting worse here in the West - and noticeably so. I wasn't meaning to say 'its a Western problem' at all. Just that racism is notably on the rise in many of these countries. As a society I fully believe Britain is one of the best in terms of tolerance and welcoming and all those things. We shouldn't lose sight of that. I'm not self-flagellating. Just noting that the growth of the problem is somewhat concerning and not isolated to 'a few idiots on social media'.

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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:56 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:49 pm
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:14 pm
Not disagreeing Insano, but my addition is that it isn't a western problem rather than a western one. My own personal experience is that racism is even worse in some non-western parts of the world and I don't mean because it is just more overt. We undoubtedly have an issue in our society, starting with politicians, but I think our problem here in the UK is more to do with privilege and a sense of misplaced superiority.
Oh I agree. Its not a Western issue at all. It is as you say far worse elsewhere. But its getting worse here in the West - and noticeably so. I wasn't meaning to say 'its a Western problem' at all. Just that racism is notably on the rise in many of these countries. As a society I fully believe Britain is one of the best in terms of tolerance and welcoming and all those things. We shouldn't lose sight of that. I'm not self-flagellating. Just noting that the growth of the problem is somewhat concerning and not isolated to 'a few idiots on social media'.
Agree it is a problem and growing. There is an easy platform to spout from that reaches further than ever before. Because they can get it out there easier politicians are pandering to it more so they appeal to more segments of voters, which is the business they are in first and foremost.

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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by Prufrock » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:05 pm

I'm just not convinced it is growing. And I lean towards thinking social media is a big part of the problem.

I think the problem is numbers. In a country of, say 60m people even a tiny percentage of racists is a relatively big number. The difference now is almost all of them have access to a smartphone and a Twitter account. In addition there is far more of a culture of highlighting this stuff and pointing it out.

In the past these people had no platform and got ignored. They'd say some nonsense in the pub and broadly everyone would roll their eyes. Now they can broadcast it to the world and in addition people will pick it up and share it saying looking at this nice person.

In the past two years we've had the taking the knee campaign, and three black players missing penalties in a major final being supported and applauded through the country. Not without problems of course, a not insignificant minority booed the first and abused the second, but those would have been far more mainstream positions even 10 years ago IMO.
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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:21 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:05 pm
I'm just not convinced it is growing. And I lean towards thinking social media is a big part of the problem.

I think the problem is numbers. In a country of, say 60m people even a tiny percentage of racists is a relatively big number. The difference now is almost all of them have access to a smartphone and a Twitter account. In addition there is far more of a culture of highlighting this stuff and pointing it out.

In the past these people had no platform and got ignored. They'd say some nonsense in the pub and broadly everyone would roll their eyes. Now they can broadcast it to the world and in addition people will pick it up and share it saying looking at this nice person.

In the past two years we've had the taking the knee campaign, and three black players missing penalties in a major final being supported and applauded through the country. Not without problems of course, a not insignificant minority booed the first and abused the second, but those would have been far more mainstream positions even 10 years ago IMO.
There are numerous pieces of research that show racism is rising according to a number of measures like racist motivated crimes and also the experience of people in the country. I mean even the obvious, we had an MP murdered…..

So I think it’s not really up for questioning. Social media amplifies it but doesn’t change what is there. And everyone can see social media in 2012 say was very very different to how it is today. And we all know the triggers for this behaviour. But it is on the rise outside of social media too. There were studies of people from other countries that looked at their experiences and it shows racism towards them has risen. I’ve personally seen it on a couple of occasions. Situations that had you said this would happen in 2005 say I’d have never believed you.

We have a government where a number of the front bench including the PM have history of racial slurs…that again twenty years ago would have been condemned but now are almost celebrated. It’s inconceivable for example that the country would have put up with someone in public office having a history akin to what Gove has only today been revealed to have said back twenty years ago. Just inconceivable. Yet today this Is defended vigorously.

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Re: Racism - Elias Kachunga

Post by irie Cee Bee » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:13 pm

Racism is systemic in my eyes. A System built by some to maintain and protect the status quo which has been passed from generation to generation. African people were taken from their homes, their families and their countries, enslaved and forced to work for people in shackles, who saw them little more than dogs and monkeys, never to see their families again... a thing to dominate and kick at their pleasure. The success of the economic system at the time depended on this view being maintained. Even though slavery in that manner is reduced for the most part but not eliminated, It has been maintained to this day by many, subconsciously by some, deliberately by others. I live in a country where racism is not a problem (Out of many we are one is the motto), but we have a class system where wealth is maintained by a few and the system protects that. Cost of education making many unable to get a degree; job upward mobility through connections, Cost of housing..etc.

Generally, these problems run deep. Social media has given people a voice to broadcast their deep rooted prejudices. The companies who own these social media platform facilitates these voices because it enables them to make more money and so do nothing about it as they do not want to "bite" the "system" that puts money in their pockets.

I normally try not to comment on these in public forums like this, but people who say these awful, hurtful, cruel racists things about football players should be found, permanently banned from football and arrested.

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