Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

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Should Ian Evatt stay as Bolton manager?

Stay
23
61%
Go
15
39%
 
Total votes: 38

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Worthy4England
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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by Worthy4England » Sun May 19, 2024 11:06 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:00 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 10:57 pm
What were Pompey's long term injuries? 10? 3 in Feb?

It needs different thinking. Some different personnel and a few ounces of nous.
Sure, but Pompey are an outlier in terms of injuries and results.

Mousinho did a great job. Evatt didn't.
That's pretty much the nub of it in an onfield sense. Recruitment, please weigh "a bit of gumption," and a "flash of brilliance" against "plan A" and work out the plus and minuses, instead of spreadsheeting the plusses and hoping it just works.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 19, 2024 11:16 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:06 pm
That's pretty much the nub of it in an onfield sense. Recruitment, please weigh "a bit of gumption," and a "flash of brilliance" against "plan A" and work out the plus and minuses, instead of spreadsheeting the plusses and hoping it just works.
I spoke to one BWFC bod about "character" recruitment in preseason. I think Evatt also brought it up a few times too.

It's apparently a factor for them.

I've no idea what that means to them, however.

I think Baxter has an excellent mentality, for what that's worth. Collins kept pushing more than others. Paris tried to play through a bad injury.

Maybe some of the new lads do have "it"? Or more of it, at least. Does a returning Johnston have more about him?

I've spent most of today trying not to think about football, so right now I can't make an informed call on it.

Whatever they've done hasn't worked. Ultimately nothing else matters.

I'd not be binning off players wholesale. I do know that much. Something has to change and we probably can't talk sensibly about EXACTLY what that is from the outside. We can guess a bit and we'll be able to tell next season if it has.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun May 19, 2024 11:20 pm

I thought we were just looking for a one word answer, sort of "In my opinion"?

ae:)
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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Sun May 19, 2024 11:33 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:20 pm
I thought we were just looking for a one word answer, sort of "In my opinion"?

ae:)
Okay.

Stay, in my opinion.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by DJBlu » Sun May 19, 2024 11:49 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:33 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:20 pm
I thought we were just looking for a one word answer, sort of "In my opinion"?

ae:)
Okay.

Stay, in my opinion.
I think he's beaten.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by Worthy4England » Sun May 19, 2024 11:59 pm

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:16 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:06 pm
That's pretty much the nub of it in an onfield sense. Recruitment, please weigh "a bit of gumption," and a "flash of brilliance" against "plan A" and work out the plus and minuses, instead of spreadsheeting the plusses and hoping it just works.
I spoke to one BWFC bod about "character" recruitment in preseason. I think Evatt also brought it up a few times too.

It's apparently a factor for them.

I've no idea what that means to them, however.

I think Baxter has an excellent mentality, for what that's worth. Collins kept pushing more than others. Paris tried to play through a bad injury.

Maybe some of the new lads do have "it"? Or more of it, at least. Does a returning Johnston have more about him?

I've spent most of today trying not to think about football, so right now I can't make an informed call on it.

Whatever they've done hasn't worked. Ultimately nothing else matters.

I'd not be binning off players wholesale. I do know that much. Something has to change and we probably can't talk sensibly about EXACTLY what that is from the outside. We can guess a bit and we'll be able to tell next season if it has.
Agree with this mate. We have the "kernel" in some respects, but whilst (for example) we point the Sheehan's ability (he's masterful under minimal pressure) no one's going to argue much, I wouldn't have thought, with their midfield being head and shoulders above ours, yesterday. I think Josh has worked hard this year and shown more resilience to add to his skillful kitbag, but maybe not enough to be THE difference in big games. It sorta feels a bit luxury.

Glad they talk around the mental side, because I think that's most of what us unwashed are on about when terms like "bottle" are bandied about. :-)

As a slight aside, there are some decent stats on Opta around how weak we've been on our left, defensively, which in part us why Ogbeta is a "no" from me.

If you concede 9 in 4 games vs peer group, you probably aren't going up, regardless of whether you bagged 120 or 300...

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 20, 2024 12:04 am

DJBlu wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:49 pm
I think he's beaten.
I'm pretty sure I said on here before the game that if we lost I thought he'd walk. Stuff like that is why. He's sounded like that for ages.

It's why a one word answer doesn't cut it.

A fully motivated, hungry Evatt I'll take over a new manager.

I'll happily take a new manager over an Evatt who doesn't really want to be here because he feels like he's doing us a favour and is being held back by a group of players he's assembled.

So my "stay" is based on the assumption everyone understands I only want anyone here who is ready to absolutely tear into the division next season.

I didn't like Sharon (to my eye) playing the gallery for a peerage in the commons the other day. I don't like Evatt's talk of "needing a think over the summer" for the past few months. I don't like anyone using the football club's name for a leg up. Both have, until now, been doing a good enough job that I've left all that side of things alone and tried not to bitch about it. Both have done a lot of good for this football club.

There's a lot I don't like at the minute and which feels "off", but it's just feelings and not facts. Fact is Evatt has ability, the players have ability and we have a summer where we can focus on some very specific technical fixes. Are technical fixes enough on their own to get us up? Maybe, maybe not. Are they enough to guarantee we go up? No. That means other issues need fixing, but I can't talk about how to fix them, because I can't see them.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 20, 2024 12:15 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun May 19, 2024 11:59 pm
Agree with this mate. We have the "kernel" in some respects, but whilst (for example) we point the Sheehan's ability (he's masterful under minimal pressure) no one's going to argue much, I wouldn't have thought, with their midfield being head and shoulders above ours, yesterday. I think Josh has worked hard this year and shown more resilience to add to his skillful kitbag, but maybe not enough to be THE difference in big games. It sorta feels a bit luxury.

Glad they talk around the mental side, because I think that's most of what us unwashed are on about when terms like "bottle" are bandied about. :-)

As a slight aside, there are some decent stats on Opta around how weak we've been on our left, defensively, which in part us why Ogbeta is a "no" from me.

If you concede 9 in 4 games vs peer group, you probably aren't going up, regardless of whether you bagged 120 or 300...
Yeah, not inclined to argue with any of that as far as I can tell.

If we had a first choice LWB who was on it every week I'd be happy to see Oggy coached. I think he's a talent. What I'm much less sure about (to put it mildly) is saying "This is the man who will run our left flank next season" regarding him. I could well see Oggy going to Wigan or somewhere and looking an absolute world beater after 12 months. I could also see us signing him and him struggling for a while. Wigan can be more patient than us next season.

Neither Oggy nor Williams will make me think "Nobody is living with that man today." I view Williams as a reliable, but average player. I feel the same way about Cogley, with the addition I think he's a sensational runner.

For me you keep Williams and Cogley and try to get Collins-level lads in. We missed Wilson, who is that level.

Is that "enough"? For another good chance of going up, maybe I'd feel it is. For me to think "Good luck to anyone playing us next season" I'd want to see more done. Not sure the finances are there for that, so Markham will need to pull a few rabbits out.

I think Chris has given Evatt almost exactly what he asked for. What Evatt wanted was perhaps not what he needed in the end - but it should have been enough.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by boltonboris » Mon May 20, 2024 10:50 am

I'm not Evatt out yet. I think I was on Saturday night and whilst I've still not fully simmered after a pathetic performance, I do have to look back at the good the bad and the ugly and wonder if anybody would've done a better job. I'm not sure....

What does concern me though, is where do we go from here. Does he have enough to pick the players up and go again next season. Has he lost faith in some of his players? Have they lost faith in him?

His leaders were utterly woeful. Jones, Santos, Thomasson. All absolutely abysmal. And they are supposed to be his generals on the pitch.
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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by nicholaldo » Mon May 20, 2024 10:57 am

GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 12:04 am
I didn't like Sharon (to my eye) playing the gallery for a peerage in the commons the other day.

Ditto.

I was surprised she was there at all and was surprised again that she wasn't more measured in her comments.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 20, 2024 10:58 am

boltonboris wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 10:50 am
I'm not Evatt out yet. I think I was on Saturday night and whilst I've still not fully simmered after a pathetic performance, I do have to look back at the good the bad and the ugly and wonder if anybody would've done a better job. I'm not sure....

What does concern me though, is where do we go from here. Does he have enough to pick the players up and go again next season. Has he lost faith in some of his players? Have they lost faith in him?

His leaders were utterly woeful. Jones, Santos, Thomasson. All absolutely abysmal. And they are supposed to be his generals on the pitch.
We have no leaders. Thommo is the closest thing yet he’s 23 has hardly played any football and is really the lad who should be being lead by two senior midfield players. watched the full game again and he’s at a few points virtually in tears. Nobody is there to get him through because they all went hiding and none of them are what I consider the sort of experienced pros. Brannagan showed us everything we don’t have. He was completely up for that and a leader for them in midfield. He inspired effort all around him. He scared our midfield. Scared them.

We’ve said all season this is a problem but it’s always been brushed away. We are weak mentally because our senior players are. And in some cases weak physically too.

If you can’t win your fights and your senior players shrink when the pressure is on it’s not going to be a good end.

We need big changes because most of these for me have reached their natural ends here. They won’t be able to push us any further and the result will be repeated time and time again.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 20, 2024 11:00 am

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 10:57 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 12:04 am
I didn't like Sharon (to my eye) playing the gallery for a peerage in the commons the other day.

Ditto.

I was surprised she was there at all and was surprised again that she wasn't more measured in her comments.
You don’t get peerages for select committee appearances so I think that’s wide of the mark.

The timing of that which of course she had no control over does look spectacularly bad. But I don’t think it made much difference.

If anything I think now in hindsight the worry is whether she is hard nosed enough to really get us where we need to be. It’s all well and good saying football needs to be run like other businesses but it’s not the same. It’s a hard nosed competitive sport that needs big hard decisions taking sometimes.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 20, 2024 11:01 am

Dunno about people who do a better job. I can think of at least three who will be in the Champo next season...

Don't disagree Jones, Santos and Thommo all abysmal on the day but I think a player such as Sheehan, a senior pro, whether or not he has a "gaffer" name badge were equally as cuplable.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by boltonboris » Mon May 20, 2024 11:13 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 11:01 am
Dunno about people who do a better job. I can think of at least three who will be in the Champo next season...

Don't disagree Jones, Santos and Thommo all abysmal on the day but I think a player such as Sheehan, a senior pro, whether or not he has a "gaffer" name badge were equally as cuplable.
I'm not singling those three out performance-wise, and there wasn't one player who I thought deserved any credit other than maybe Dempsey. At least he ran around a bit - The 3 I mentioned, were because they're considered team captains. Which when you think about it, is feck* bonkers. One of them doesn't have enough experience, and the other 2 often go missing when we need them to step up.

Regardless of wether or not Santos has been playing through the pain barrier, he has been quite terrible in the play off matches, as have Jones and Toal, which is a real concern
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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by nicholaldo » Mon May 20, 2024 11:15 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 11:00 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 10:57 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 12:04 am
I didn't like Sharon (to my eye) playing the gallery for a peerage in the commons the other day.

Ditto.

I was surprised she was there at all and was surprised again that she wasn't more measured in her comments.
You don’t get peerages for select committee appearances so I think that’s wide of the mark.

The timing of that which of course she had no control over does look spectacularly bad. But I don’t think it made much difference.

If anything I think now in hindsight the worry is whether she is hard nosed enough to really get us where we need to be. It’s all well and good saying football needs to be run like other businesses but it’s not the same. It’s a hard nosed competitive sport that needs big hard decisions taking sometimes.

I didn't mean the peerage thing to be fair, just her appearance there and how she spoke.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon May 20, 2024 11:19 am

nicholaldo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 11:15 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 11:00 am
nicholaldo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 10:57 am
GhostoftheBok wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 12:04 am
I didn't like Sharon (to my eye) playing the gallery for a peerage in the commons the other day.

Ditto.

I was surprised she was there at all and was surprised again that she wasn't more measured in her comments.
You don’t get peerages for select committee appearances so I think that’s wide of the mark.

The timing of that which of course she had no control over does look spectacularly bad. But I don’t think it made much difference.

If anything I think now in hindsight the worry is whether she is hard nosed enough to really get us where we need to be. It’s all well and good saying football needs to be run like other businesses but it’s not the same. It’s a hard nosed competitive sport that needs big hard decisions taking sometimes.

I didn't mean the peerage thing to be fair, just her appearance there and how she spoke.
Yeah indeed. The latter is the thing that would worry me most.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 20, 2024 11:37 am

boltonboris wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 11:13 am
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 11:01 am
Dunno about people who do a better job. I can think of at least three who will be in the Champo next season...

Don't disagree Jones, Santos and Thommo all abysmal on the day but I think a player such as Sheehan, a senior pro, whether or not he has a "gaffer" name badge were equally as cuplable.
I'm not singling those three out performance-wise, and there wasn't one player who I thought deserved any credit other than maybe Dempsey. At least he ran around a bit - The 3 I mentioned, were because they're considered team captains. Which when you think about it, is feck* bonkers. One of them doesn't have enough experience, and the other 2 often go missing when we need them to step up.

Regardless of wether or not Santos has been playing through the pain barrier, he has been quite terrible in the play off matches, as have Jones and Toal, which is a real concern
Yeah, agree mate. When that happens you're sorta hoping your seniors step in too, but they all seem pretty passive.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by Bertie Wooster » Mon May 20, 2024 11:44 am

I honestly can't understand anyone saying he should stay, if he did it would be absolutely exactly the same next season.

He's not going to want to re build his team (would FV even back him to do so after the backing he's had already ?), he won't want to get rid of some players who he's brought in himself, he won't change his chuckle brothers 'to me to you' possession for possessions sake non football, he won't bring in some experienced combative players (which we have needed for a while now), I doubt that he'd replace Santos as captain, he won't bring in skilful wingers or more experienced coaches to help him, he won't admit that his 5-3-2 isn't working.

He never ever blames himself for anything, so he's not going to stay on the basis of taking a look at himself & what went wrong etc. he won't admit that it needs a change of tactics & a few different experienced players with better mentality - I also highly doubt that he'll agree to bring in better coaches who may challenge him, will he want to stay with 60% of the fans wanting him out (a few different polls all say the same)

I'll be really surprised if he's not reached agreement with FV before the weekend and goes.

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by Worthy4England » Mon May 20, 2024 11:55 am

^^ I think for me, Bertie, if he's going to go, either under his own steam or otherwise, we just need it to occur quickly.

We've been told plenty that a minority or just a few not rights want him gone, but this little survey (obviously not statistically representative) suggests there might be a few more wanting change than we're led to believe...

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Re: Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

Post by GhostoftheBok » Mon May 20, 2024 12:00 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon May 20, 2024 11:00 am
You don’t get peerages for select committee appearances so I think that’s wide of the mark.
I didn't claim you do.

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