Should I(E) stay or should I(E) go?

[Bertie Wooster]

Not sure anyone, anywhere, ever has said that Evatt should carry on as he is. I've repeatedly said he needs to change. I can't speak for all stay-voters, but I'm confident they all think the same to a greater or lesser extent.

There's a serious conversation to be had, and it'd be lovely if it started rather than fatuous exaggeration.

And you & the other stay voters seriously think that the 'stubborn' Evatt will openly admit that he needs to change - and will shape the squad to play slightly different next season & have a few players to use in a non 5-3-2 Plan B.

You think that he will bring in a couple of leaders, address the mentality issues, sign some more experienced combative players, perhaps even a tricky, pacy winger to bring on should he need a Plan B, or even a tricky winger to perhaps start games with when he knows beforehand that the opposition know how to stifle his standard Plan A 'to me to you', Santos QB tactic.

[Prufrock]

Unsurprising that the stay vote is creeping up, given the timing of the initial poll!

I have no issue with those who want out. Up to this point the criticism has been daft. This is the first time he's failed, but he's failed. Not by much, 3rd and a play off defeat is as close as you can get without succeeding, but think there are no more chances. Struggle to see a world where this time next year we are in L1 and he's the manager.

I'm a stay, but I suspect like most that's very much not on a plan A but better basis. There are clear failings that need fixing. We need to concede fewer goals, and we need more consistency of the good stuff. Up to him to deliver that (we've all got ideas!) and he'll be judged on results.

That of course is if he gets the chance and wants it. That needs answering v soon as next season has already started.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Not sure anyone, anywhere, ever has said that Evatt should carry on as he is. I've repeatedly said he needs to change. I can't speak for all stay-voters, but I'm confident they all think the same to a greater or lesser extent.

There's a serious conversation to be had, and it'd be lovely if it started rather than fatuous exaggeration.

And you & the other stay voters seriously think that the 'stubborn' Evatt will openly admit that he needs to change - and will shape the squad to play slightly different next season & have a few players to use in a non 5-3-2 Plan B.

You think that he will bring in a couple of leaders, address the mentality issues, sign some more experienced combative players, perhaps even a tricky, pacy winger to bring on should he need a Plan B, or even a tricky winger to perhaps start games with when he knows beforehand that the opposition know how to stifle his standard Plan A 'to me to you', Santos QB tactic.

Not sure how many times I can type "I think he needs to change". If he doesn't, it won't work and he should be potted.

It's now 59% stay. Like Pru, I compleeeeeetely understand why people want him out. I'm not there quite yet - but it's very close, needs a lot of action in summer and a damn fast start.

[boltonboris]

I gave myself some time before voting. I voted stay. He has failed but has credit in the bank. If he starts the season poorly, or makes excuses about investment, or not having the right players available, then he can go.

But I think that after what was a huge blip, the team with a few tweaks can be in a good position to go again next season, as long as the manager has the appetite to lead them

[Prufrock]

Not sure anyone, anywhere, ever has said that Evatt should carry on as he is. I've repeatedly said he needs to change. I can't speak for all stay-voters, but I'm confident they all think the same to a greater or lesser extent.

There's a serious conversation to be had, and it'd be lovely if it started rather than fatuous exaggeration.

And you & the other stay voters seriously think that the 'stubborn' Evatt will openly admit that he needs to change - and will shape the squad to play slightly different next season & have a few players to use in a non 5-3-2 Plan B.

You think that he will bring in a couple of leaders, address the mentality issues, sign some more experienced combative players, perhaps even a tricky, pacy winger to bring on should he need a Plan B, or even a tricky winger to perhaps start games with when he knows beforehand that the opposition know how to stifle his standard Plan A 'to me to you', Santos QB tactic.

Admit it? Probably not now (though if he does and it works I imagine he'll be taking credit in hindsight).

But he's changed before. Ditched the 352 for a 433 and won promotion from L2. Ditched the 433 and went back to 352 first season up when we signed Fossey (though I'd argue the as much as Fossey that was about the others we signed that window - Charles, Morley and Dempsey so we no longer had to play Nathan Delfounso and George Johnston in central midfield).

If he doesn't do that, I fear failure unless we can get in the gold standard wing backs one on each side. Between Fossey and Bradley (and nearly Wilson) that might be doable on the right. But all that plus a left foot on the other side? I'm unconvinced. Not sure we'd had a single one on the side who's ever looked like being consistently at the level.

[Worthy4England]

Not sure anyone, anywhere, ever has said that Evatt should carry on as he is. I've repeatedly said he needs to change. I can't speak for all stay-voters, but I'm confident they all think the same to a greater or lesser extent.

There's a serious conversation to be had, and it'd be lovely if it started rather than fatuous exaggeration.

And you & the other stay voters seriously think that the 'stubborn' Evatt will openly admit that he needs to change - and will shape the squad to play slightly different next season & have a few players to use in a non 5-3-2 Plan B.

You think that he will bring in a couple of leaders, address the mentality issues, sign some more experienced combative players, perhaps even a tricky, pacy winger to bring on should he need a Plan B, or even a tricky winger to perhaps start games with when he knows beforehand that the opposition know how to stifle his standard Plan A 'to me to you', Santos QB tactic.

Not sure how many times I can type "I think he needs to change". If he doesn't, it won't work and he should be potted.

It's now 59% stay. Like Pru, I compleeeeeetely understand why people want him out. I'm not there quite yet - but it's very close, needs a lot of action in summer and a damn fast start.

It's 59% stay on here from a statistically inconsequential sample. And we're generally a fairly non-militant lot. Other way around on WW with more votes but still statistically inconsequential. - 53%-47% - go - so narrowing, but 181 votes. That looks way too marginal for keep, in my book.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

In the end, there's only two votes that matter - Evatt's and Brittan's - but you can't say it's not interesting that on each forum the Go vote is sliding and the Stay vote shoring up. Makes sense as anger subsides in some, but as has been correctly noted, there's still plenty of it about – and when the actual football starts again it's easier to shout "BOOOO" than "Give it time to turst the process and maybe things will be OK in the end if there's enough humility and acceptance of the need for change"

[Mar]

LOL @ "the usual nonsense". Aye, there's certainly loads of that about.

"WHAT DO WE WANT?"
"SOMEONE NEW!"
"WHO SHALL WE HIRE?"
"DUNNO!"




"I think you'll find it's not my role to comment on the details of the thing I've held forth about at length. In summary, Something Must Be Done, but don't ask me precisely what."

Of course, there is a manager out there who can restore us to greatness. There are also plenty who won't. That's the risk when you roll the dice. There's also risk when you don't.

I see the qualification criteria are sliding around now. If only footballers could shift goalposts as nimbly.

If I may summarise. "What we need is a managerial appointment that works and will make sense in hindsight. My unprovable green-grass alternative reality would definitely be better." Duh.

Andranik for manager!

People have named names - managers out of work with a track record in this league.

What more do you want someone to do?

Maybe fix what's wrong with our current setup.

Weve done well in a lot of games this season but there's no doubt we need to do better in the ones we struggled.

No point throwing away the good when trying to fix the bad.

As for naming names that's a tad pointless. We need to see a plan and have it evident in how we play. Evatt has that plan, but he doesn't have a plan B.

Sorting out the plan B is what counts.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Not sure anyone, anywhere, ever has said that Evatt should carry on as he is. I've repeatedly said he needs to change. I can't speak for all stay-voters, but I'm confident they all think the same to a greater or lesser extent.

There's a serious conversation to be had, and it'd be lovely if it started rather than fatuous exaggeration.

And you & the other stay voters seriously think that the 'stubborn' Evatt will openly admit that he needs to change - and will shape the squad to play slightly different next season & have a few players to use in a non 5-3-2 Plan B.

You think that he will bring in a couple of leaders, address the mentality issues, sign some more experienced combative players, perhaps even a tricky, pacy winger to bring on should he need a Plan B, or even a tricky winger to perhaps start games with when he knows beforehand that the opposition know how to stifle his standard Plan A 'to me to you', Santos QB tactic.

I held off voting until last night. As there wasn't a fence sitting option I wanted to vote in a measured way rather than react to the shambles that was Saturday. I think we are all united in our reaction to Saturday - not acceptable. Whilst the vote splits us into 2 camps of stay/go I think there are many shades to each side. If we use politics as an analogy then I think a decent number of us probably site centre out and centre stay and wouldn't take a huge amount to shift us the other way. A few definitely land on the hard go, but I'm not sure anyone is a hard stay.

As to my own reasoning and where I know I differ to Insano is I don't hate this division. Yes, I want us to get promoted, but it isn't a disaster in of itself to not. My requirement for satisfaction is to be competitive and give it our best shot. Cleary we failed on second part, so I'm not a satisfied fella. The other thing for me is I think changing managers and therefore chunks of playing staff constantly is a bad thing. Yes, sometimes it needs to happen, but sometimes stability is better. On balance, on the assumption that Evatt is 100% committed AND willing to make some changes, then I think we've a better chance in the short term than ripping it up and starting again. There is plenty that he's got right, he now has to prove he can fix the things that we failed at this season without breaking the rest. This season he fixed some of our forward stuff but broke the defence. Can he now fix the defence without breaking the other stuff. If by October it is clear he's failing again then I'm jumping to out. The alternative is give someone else a year or two to come in and maybe do better.

I don't think anyone is asking for more of the same however they voted.

[boltonboris]

^^ Like button for Abdoulaye's Twin

[Worthy4England]

^^ Like button for Abdoulaye's Twin

This is the stay camp all over - they try to make you believe there's a "like button," when, in fact there is none as should be plain to see.

[chester white]

Not sure anyone, anywhere, ever has said that Evatt should carry on as he is. I've repeatedly said he needs to change. I can't speak for all stay-voters, but I'm confident they all think the same to a greater or lesser extent.

There's a serious conversation to be had, and it'd be lovely if it started rather than fatuous exaggeration.

And you & the other stay voters seriously think that the 'stubborn' Evatt will openly admit that he needs to change - and will shape the squad to play slightly different next season & have a few players to use in a non 5-3-2 Plan B.

You think that he will bring in a couple of leaders, address the mentality issues, sign some more experienced combative players, perhaps even a tricky, pacy winger to bring on should he need a Plan B, or even a tricky winger to perhaps start games with when he knows beforehand that the opposition know how to stifle his standard Plan A 'to me to you', Santos QB tactic.

I held off voting until last night. As there wasn't a fence sitting option I wanted to vote in a measured way rather than react to the shambles that was Saturday. I think we are all united in our reaction to Saturday - not acceptable. Whilst the vote splits us into 2 camps of stay/go I think there are many shades to each side. If we use politics as an analogy then I think a decent number of us probably site centre out and centre stay and wouldn't take a huge amount to shift us the other way. A few definitely land on the hard go, but I'm not sure anyone is a hard stay.

As to my own reasoning and where I know I differ to Insano is I don't hate this division. Yes, I want us to get promoted, but it isn't a disaster in of itself to not. My requirement for satisfaction is to be competitive and give it our best shot. Cleary we failed on second part, so I'm not a satisfied fella. The other thing for me is I think changing managers and therefore chunks of playing staff constantly is a bad thing. Yes, sometimes it needs to happen, but sometimes stability is better. On balance, on the assumption that Evatt is 100% committed AND willing to make some changes, then I think we've a better chance in the short term than ripping it up and starting again. There is plenty that he's got right, he now has to prove he can fix the things that we failed at this season without breaking the rest. This season he fixed some of our forward stuff but broke the defence. Can he now fix the defence without breaking the other stuff. If by October it is clear he's failing again then I'm jumping to out. The alternative is give someone else a year or two to come in and maybe do better.

I don't think anyone is asking for more of the same however they voted.

Yep… I’m on board with this having calmed down 3 days on. Probably more so when I see names like Ainsworth and Cook being thrown about as potential replacements.

[boltonboris]

^^ Like button for Abdoulaye's Twin

This is the stay camp all over - they try to make you believe there's a "like button," when, in fact there is none as should be plain to see.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Nice post, AT. You speak for me, too.

On the other point (replacement) - I understand why people say "It's not up to me to name a name" but the point is, to believe in change I need to see the alternative and to believe in it.

For me, Gareth Ainsworth is very much a no thanks - partly on style, partly on dreadful T2 PPG, but also on the feeling that he's better at an overachieving small club than one with a large number of fans who truly believe it's underachieving*. Paul Cook was the name that sort of surprised me when I did that research - I knew he'd had a load of lower-league promotions, but I'd forgotten he kept Wigan up until the finances bit - but it's still a sort of meh appointment, certainly not one that would make the heart leap. Alex Neil - possibly, maybe; makes sense; I can't remember watching his teams much but at least he has the experience.

I dunno. None of the names who've "been there, done that" light my candle. I'd probably much rather us take on a young manager. Again: just in the last two seasons, Mousinho, Buckingham, Schumacher and McKenna have been promoted from this division in their 30s and their first EFL management jobs – their first anywhere for all bar Buckingham, whose previous experience in New Zealand and India would presumably hugely underwhelm many a Bolton fan looking for the next Rioch.

*Again like AT, I don't clutch pearls and faint at the very thought of being in this division; it's where I came in, forty years ago, and the experiences here have been happier than many in the division above, certainly since the Major/Blair era. I know a few other matchgoers who feel the same. I know there'll be many who don't. Fair enough.

[Harry Genshaw]

I voted go but it won't be the worst thing in the world if he stays. Since we apparently needed to find £20m if we went up, perhaps we're better off in a small pond for now.

The biggest reason for sticking with him right now, is the very real possibility any replacement would be much worse. When Neal left, I and many others, voted for Don Mackay in a BEN phone poll. Wonder what happened to him?

[BWFC_Insane]

Would a Gareth Ainsworth or similar sort side ever go to a play off final and fail to register a shot on target?

I can’t imagine it. Even when his side were a lowly underdog I doubt that would happen.

I respect some people seem heavily invested in style. But it can’t be something we hide behind. The style of football in my opinion is the worst - it is style over substance. We definitely need substance over everything else now.

[irie Cee Bee]

I voted him to go. I have somewhat calmed down and still say he should go. He has a passing grade since he has been here, but tactically, cannot compete with the top managers in L1. I am not satisfied staying in this league. I have higher ambitions for our club.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Ainsworth's lost two play-off finals, in which the only goal his teams scored was an oggie. (To be fair, he's also won one.) He was sacked this season after losing six games on the bounce. So yeah, he knows about failure.

So do even great managers. Again, under Allardyce - who history proved to be a brilliant manager - we reached a two-legged semi-final against local rivals and lost 4-0 on aggregate. That's a team featuring Gudni Bergsson, Claus Jensen and Eidur Godjohnsen humiliated by one featiring Clint Hill, Alan Mahon and Andy Parkinson.

The problem with saying "Mr X's teams would never..." is that they sometimes do.

None of which means Evatt's infallible - again, he needs to learn, and fast. But "if imaginary thing X happened I can't imagine imaginary thing Y happening" is not a strong proposition.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yes Allardyce lost three semi finals. Next season he fixed it though and with a far less prestigious squad. And I mean those three semis were off the back of his first half season.

Evatt has build this squad up to his exact need. And I’m not having an Ainsworth or a Parky or any experienced manager who is worth their salt would have let Saturday happen. Sure they might have lost the game but not so appallingly and without fight.

This idea that Evatt needs to learn - I get it. But it’s not about learning it’s about him having the face to rip up his entire mantra here and instead build a team with the physicality and resilience and mental strength to get out of league one. Abandoning the idea that centre halves have got to be able to play. Abandoning the idea we have to dominate possession on the half way line.

All that needs to change if we want a chance. He might learn that but I just don’t think he’s humble enough to do so here in a summer. Not close.

It’s like saying ‘Coyle has to learn’ after Wembley defeat to Stoke and the fallout. He did. But was he ever going to? Not a chance.

Ultimately it comes down to I don’t believe a few tweaks will suffice. A new manager MIGHT find ways of using some of these players in a more robust system and style that is more repeatable over the season. And that might mean we need less recruitment. I just am unconvinced Evatt can or will do so.

[Bertie Wooster]

I voted go & have calmed down a bit after Saturday and want him to go more than ever !

I actually don't mind him as a person, I just think he's a poor manager who talks the talk but hasn't improved us at all IMO in any area of the pitch. I'm talking watching us live at matches (not just stats) He will not change, he believes in his approach & his own management style (best team in the league, fittest team in the league etc.), but its just talk as we simply are not either of those.

How many times over the past two years have we said that the team is mentally frail, weak, lacks leadership on the pitch, we are too soft we need a few bruisers etc.), time after time Evatt has said that we are wrong, then after the game on Saturday comes out and says that we lost because of 'fear & pressure' and 'mentally I don't think we were tough enough or strong enough today'. It's all just talk, he's done nothing to address the issues in the squad that most fans can see.

This no plan B that many fans say is 100% correct, he doesn't have the flexibility in the squad to bring on a winger or a big bruiser up top to change it up and go direct, its just more of the same plan A but with different players all brought in to play the same way.

I'm more puzzled as to why some fans think that he will & can change - what evidence is this faith based on ?