Arsenal v Bolton (match thread)

[TANGODANCER]

Now, now. We don't need Tango Vs thebish Round 4,763.

I said I'd drop Petrov because Taylor is better at set-pieces and Martin has played two games over this international period. We've got a squad, there's no reason why we shouldn't use it.

It would be nice to believe that all things are equal and that we could go to the Emirates, express ourselves and beat them fair and square, but it's unlikely to happen. If we give Arsenal the same possestion and territorial advantage in the first half as we did West Ham, they will be out of sight.

I know what have been our failings Tom, and also Arsenals' strengths. But we beat them previously by getting amongst them with a bit of belief we could win. With Lee and Petrov we have something we didn't previously have, at least for a fair while, the ability to actually beat men and get early balls inot the box. We also have Holden and Muamba, a combination they haven't come across yet, and whilst I quite like Taylor, he isn't renowned either for pace or beating defenders. We need to mix our game up a bit and use both long balls and worked moves, but more, a belief we can do it. If Walcott and Van Persie are both out it will be an easier task, although they still have plenty front talent. If we're going to lose how man matters not so let's take it to them.

[Sir Nut]

Now, now. We don't need Tango Vs thebish Round 4,763.

I said I'd drop Petrov because Taylor is better at set-pieces and Martin has played two games over this international period. We've got a squad, there's no reason why we shouldn't use it.

It would be nice to believe that all things are equal and that we could go to the Emirates, express ourselves and beat them fair and square, but it's unlikely to happen. If we give Arsenal the same possestion and territorial advantage in the first half as we did West Ham, they will be out of sight.

I know what have been our failings Tom, and also Arsenals' strengths. But we beat them previously by getting amongst them with a bit of belief we could win. With Lee and Petrov we have something we didn't previously have, at least for a fair while, the ability to actually beat men and get early balls inot the box. We also have Holden and Muamba, a combination they haven't come across yet, and whilst I quite like Taylor, he isn't renowned either for pace or beating defenders. We need to mix our game up a bit and use both long balls and worked moves, but more, a belief we can do it. If Walcott and Van Persie are both out it will be an easier task, although they still have plenty front talent. If we're going to lose how man matters not so let's take it to them.

Tom is absoloutley spot on here, if he leaves Davies on (which he will) we might aswell play direct and play to his strenghts, who has the best delivery from a set piece? Taylor by a mile, therefore he should start, when starting Lee and Petrov, Elmander and Klasnic should start as they will link up better and feed better of Lee and Petrovs balls. Davies, Lee and Petrov is a miss match.

[TANGODANCER]

Now, now. We don't need Tango Vs thebish Round 4,763.

I said I'd drop Petrov because Taylor is better at set-pieces and Martin has played two games over this international period. We've got a squad, there's no reason why we shouldn't use it.

It would be nice to believe that all things are equal and that we could go to the Emirates, express ourselves and beat them fair and square, but it's unlikely to happen. If we give Arsenal the same possestion and territorial advantage in the first half as we did West Ham, they will be out of sight.

I know what have been our failings Tom, and also Arsenals' strengths. But we beat them previously by getting amongst them with a bit of belief we could win. With Lee and Petrov we have something we didn't previously have, at least for a fair while, the ability to actually beat men and get early balls inot the box. We also have Holden and Muamba, a combination they haven't come across yet, and whilst I quite like Taylor, he isn't renowned either for pace or beating defenders. We need to mix our game up a bit and use both long balls and worked moves, but more, a belief we can do it. If Walcott and Van Persie are both out it will be an easier task, although they still have plenty front talent. If we're going to lose how many matters not so let's take it to them.

Tom is absoloutley spot on here, if he leaves Davies on (which he will) we might aswell play direct and play to his strenghts, who has the best delivery from a set piece? Taylor by a mile, therefore he should start, when starting Lee and Petrov, Elmander and Klasnic should start as they will link up better and feed better of Lee and Petrovs balls. Davies, Lee and Petrov is a miss match.

Why? Be nice to see him get a ball to head in a forwards direction for a change. We can't hope to live off set pieces we might not even get. You've slated Davies persistently for not doing things with goal kicks eight feet off the deck now you say play to his stengths by doing it.

[thebish]

What was the side like away at West Ham? Same idea as the home games?

Would you take Petrov or leave him out due to him not getting stuck in enough?

One says drop Lee, one suggests leaving Petrov out and we spent most of last season crying out for some skill and a better class of fotball.

not every game is the same Tango. )

WOW! Is that from Revelations?

no - it's an opinion about how we should play Arsenal.

if you accept that every game is different - then surely you accept that we play different sides differently - no? In which case it is not mind-boggling for people to suggest an alternative style of football designed specifically to nullify the side that will be in front of us this particular weekend - namely, Arsenal... and that is not out of step with "crying out for some skill and a better class of football".

[truewhite15]

Now, now. We don't need Tango Vs thebish Round 4,763.

I said I'd drop Petrov because Taylor is better at set-pieces and Martin has played two games over this international period. We've got a squad, there's no reason why we shouldn't use it.

It would be nice to believe that all things are equal and that we could go to the Emirates, express ourselves and beat them fair and square, but it's unlikely to happen. If we give Arsenal the same possestion and territorial advantage in the first half as we did West Ham, they will be out of sight.

I know what have been our failings Tom, and also Arsenals' strengths. But we beat them previously by getting amongst them with a bit of belief we could win. With Lee and Petrov we have something we didn't previously have, at least for a fair while, the ability to actually beat men and get early balls inot the box. We also have Holden and Muamba, a combination they haven't come across yet, and whilst I quite like Taylor, he isn't renowned either for pace or beating defenders. We need to mix our game up a bit and use both long balls and worked moves, but more, a belief we can do it. If Walcott and Van Persie are both out it will be an easier task, although they still have plenty front talent. If we're going to lose how many matters not so let's take it to them.

Tom is absoloutley spot on here, if he leaves Davies on (which he will) we might aswell play direct and play to his strenghts, who has the best delivery from a set piece? Taylor by a mile, therefore he should start, when starting Lee and Petrov, Elmander and Klasnic should start as they will link up better and feed better of Lee and Petrovs balls. Davies, Lee and Petrov is a miss match.

Why? Be nice to see him get a ball to head in a forwards direction for a change. We can't hope to live off set pieces we might not even get. You've slated Davies persistently for not doing things with goal kicks eight feet off the deck now you say play to his stengths by doing it.

I'm with Tango. Plus - Taylor has a better delivery than Petrov, who is widely renowned to have the best left foot in the Prem? I think I might just have Petrov...

[TANGODANCER]

What was the side like away at West Ham? Same idea as the home games?

Would you take Petrov or leave him out due to him not getting stuck in enough?

One says drop Lee, one suggests leaving Petrov out and we spent most of last season crying out for some skill and a better class of fotball.

not every game is the same Tango. )

WOW! Is that from Revelations?

no - it's an opinion about how we should play Arsenal.
if you accept that every game is different - then surely you accept that we play different sides differently - no? In which case it is not mind-boggling for people to suggest an alternative style of football designed specifically to nullify the side that will be in front of us this particular weekend - namely, Arsenal... and that is not out of step with "crying out for some skill and a better class of football".

Me, I'm just happy to leave that to Owen Coyle. He knows more about it than me.

[Sir Nut]

Now, now. We don't need Tango Vs thebish Round 4,763.

I said I'd drop Petrov because Taylor is better at set-pieces and Martin has played two games over this international period. We've got a squad, there's no reason why we shouldn't use it.

It would be nice to believe that all things are equal and that we could go to the Emirates, express ourselves and beat them fair and square, but it's unlikely to happen. If we give Arsenal the same possestion and territorial advantage in the first half as we did West Ham, they will be out of sight.

I know what have been our failings Tom, and also Arsenals' strengths. But we beat them previously by getting amongst them with a bit of belief we could win. With Lee and Petrov we have something we didn't previously have, at least for a fair while, the ability to actually beat men and get early balls inot the box. We also have Holden and Muamba, a combination they haven't come across yet, and whilst I quite like Taylor, he isn't renowned either for pace or beating defenders. We need to mix our game up a bit and use both long balls and worked moves, but more, a belief we can do it. If Walcott and Van Persie are both out it will be an easier task, although they still have plenty front talent. If we're going to lose how many matters not so let's take it to them.

Tom is absoloutley spot on here, if he leaves Davies on (which he will) we might aswell play direct and play to his strenghts, who has the best delivery from a set piece? Taylor by a mile, therefore he should start, when starting Lee and Petrov, Elmander and Klasnic should start as they will link up better and feed better of Lee and Petrovs balls. Davies, Lee and Petrov is a miss match.

Why? Be nice to see him get a ball to head in a forwards direction for a change. We can't hope to live off set pieces we might not even get. You've slated Davies persistently for not doing things with goal kicks eight feet off the deck now you say play to his stengths by doing it.

Tango, we will be lucky to see Davies getting on the end of one of Petrovs, Lee's cross from open play and he'll only score 2 or 3 max from open play with his head. I think he's scored about 15 in his whole career. The fact he already has made his run before the cross has been made means - for him to score with his head it needs to be absoloutely perfect and delivered right on his noggin.

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

I never stated - smash goalkicks to his head, what i mean by set pieces is if we have a free kick around the half way line or further in, Taylor has the delivery to cause havok in the box and Davies has the pressence to cause Mayhem when deep in thier box, he doesnt have to head it to anyone, he just needs to head it (it can bounce anywhere), now when he heads it from goal kicks and just heads it 9 times out of 10 it falls to one of thier players meaning they have possesion. Elmander is having to guess where he is heading the ball.

[thebish]

One says drop Lee, one suggests leaving Petrov out and we spent most of last season crying out for some skill and a better class of fotball.

not every game is the same Tango. )

WOW! Is that from Revelations?

no - it's an opinion about how we should play Arsenal.
if you accept that every game is different - then surely you accept that we play different sides differently - no? In which case it is not mind-boggling for people to suggest an alternative style of football designed specifically to nullify the side that will be in front of us this particular weekend - namely, Arsenal... and that is not out of step with "crying out for some skill and a better class of football".

Me, I'm just happy to leave that to Owen Coyle. He knows more about it than me.

except you didn't! You had a go at those who suggested various formations - which is fine - it's a thread to discuss the Arsenal game - it's why we're here surely?

[Lord Kangana]

What we're arguing around here is basically put Taylor in 4-5-1 and lose by 1 or 2 nil, or leave Petrov and Lee there and lose 5 or 6 to 3. F*ck it, lets go gung-ho, we've nowt to lose.

[TANGODANCER]

Tango, we will be lucky to see Davies getting on the end of one of Petrovs, Lee's cross from open play and he'll only score 2 or 3 max from open play with his head. I think he's scored about 15 in his whole career. The fact he already has made his run before the cross has been made means - for him to score with his head it needs to be absoloutely perfect and delivered right on his noggin.

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

I never stated - smash goalkicks to his head, what i mean by set pieces is if we have a free kick around the half way line or further in, Taylor has the delivery to cause havok in the box and Davies has the pressence to cause Mayhem when deep in thier box, he doesnt have to head it to anyone, he just needs to head it (it can bounce anywhere), now when he heads it from goal kicks and just heads it 9 times out of 10 it falls to one of thier players meaning they have possesion. Elmander is having to guess where he is heading the ball.

Thanks for all that. After watching Bolton for sixty years, from Nat onwards, I think I might know what heading a ball's about. Davies inevitably gets pushed, pulled and barged in the back when, as I said, jumping for headers eight feet off the deck. His job is to drag defenders around and stop them winning the headers, something he does with great success, although most of the time, until very recently, he's been the only one up there anyway. If he gets the right balls from the wings he scores, he did it against Chelsea and again the disallowed one against Fulham last season by doing just that. When was the last time we had running wingers who could deliver early balls? I've nothing at all against Elmander and Klasnic being up front, but against big defenders they won't have Davies's effect. Horses for courses and, for me, Arsenal need to be harrassed. Nobody's better at that than Davies.

[Prufrock]

First big test in terms of making my mind up on Mr Coyle. A chance to see whether we have a Tony Mowbray martyr type, or a proper football manager. If he plays Elmander AND Davies, ELmander has to play much deeper and make up the numbers in midfield, otherwise....*gulp*

[Worthy4England]

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

The supply that the people you're comparing against is rather better than the supply Davies has had in his career. I think just about all the names you mention are better strikers than Davo for goalscoring ability - although Scholes is a midfielder, but Davo scores a higher percentage of his goals with his head than any of them and the frequency of him doing so is pretty good too. Shearer has a much higher frequency, but the % of goals he got from open play isn't hugely different than Davo's. Just as an aside, Shearer is 6 foot tall...

Headed goals.

Scholes - 18 out of 102 (17.6%) - 447 appearances - heads one in every 25 games...
Owen - 16 out of 147 (10.9%) - 308 appearances - 19.25 games
Fowler - 28 out of 163 (17.1%) - 379 appearances - 13.5 games
Shearer - 46 out of 260 (17.7%) - 441 appearances - 9.5 games
Davies - 22 out of 74 (29.7%) - 378 appearances - 17.1 games

[Hoboh]

Now, now. We don't need Tango Vs thebish Round 4,763.

I said I'd drop Petrov because Taylor is better at set-pieces and Martin has played two games over this international period. We've got a squad, there's no reason why we shouldn't use it.

ummmmm could be a reason Petrov has played two international games let me think ah because he,s a better player, silly me!

It would be nice to believe that all things are equal and that we could go to the Emirates, express ourselves and beat them fair and square, but it's unlikely to happen. If we give Arsenal the same possestion and territorial advantage in the first half as we did West Ham, they will be out of sight.

firmly agree with that bit Tom but if we get into them we can do it please just don't tell me Taylors the man for that job the game the ball and all the arses will pass him by keeper included!

[Montreal Wanderer]

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

The supply that the people you're comparing against is rather better than the supply Davies has had in his career. I think just about all the names you mention are better strikers than Davo for goalscoring ability - although Scholes is a midfielder, but Davo scores a higher percentage of his goals with his head than any of them and the frequency of him doing so is pretty good too. Shearer has a much higher frequency, but the % of goals he got from open play isn't hugely different than Davo's. Just as an aside, Shearer is 6 foot tall...

Headed goals.

Scholes - 18 out of 102 (17.6%) - 447 appearances - heads one in every 25 games...
Owen - 16 out of 147 (10.9%) - 308 appearances - 19.25 games
Fowler - 28 out of 163 (17.1%) - 379 appearances - 13.5 games
Shearer - 46 out of 260 (17.7%) - 441 appearances - 9.5 games
Davies - 22 out of 74 (29.7%) - 378 appearances - 17.1 games

Trust you to ruin a stupid and emotional argument with facts, Worthy. Takes all the fun out of the unsupportable opinions aired here.

[Hoboh]

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

The supply that the people you're comparing against is rather better than the supply Davies has had in his career. I think just about all the names you mention are better strikers than Davo for goalscoring ability - although Scholes is a midfielder, but Davo scores a higher percentage of his goals with his head than any of them and the frequency of him doing so is pretty good too. Shearer has a much higher frequency, but the % of goals he got from open play isn't hugely different than Davo's. Just as an aside, Shearer is 6 foot tall...

Headed goals.

Scholes - 18 out of 102 (17.6%) - 447 appearances - heads one in every 25 games...
Owen - 16 out of 147 (10.9%) - 308 appearances - 19.25 games
Fowler - 28 out of 163 (17.1%) - 379 appearances - 13.5 games
Shearer - 46 out of 260 (17.7%) - 441 appearances - 9.5 games
Davies - 22 out of 74 (29.7%) - 378 appearances - 17.1 games

Trust you to ruin a stupid and emotional argument with facts, Worthy. Takes all the fun out of the unsupportable opinions aired here.

I'll bet defenders have a better headed goal ratio than forwards, that why Sir nut (sorry Megson) kept signing them?

[thebish]

What we're arguing around here is basically put Taylor in 4-5-1 and lose by 1 or 2 nil, or leave Petrov and Lee there and lose 5 or 6 to 3. F*ck it, lets go gung-ho, we've nowt to lose.

except it wasn't that long ago that matty scored 2 against arsenal...

[BWFC_Insane]

First big test in terms of making my mind up on Mr Coyle. A chance to see whether we have a Tony Mowbray martyr type, or a proper football manager. If he plays Elmander AND Davies, ELmander has to play much deeper and make up the numbers in midfield, otherwise....*gulp*

Sorry Pru but I'm not sure if I follow this argument.

When do we ever take points of Arsenal at the Emirates?

If we'd done that quite often under more shall we say "pragmatic" managers in Allardyce and Megson then I could understand that line of thought.

IMO its not a game to judge Coyle in.

Can't see him playing 2 up front but I guess either way a point is unlikely.

[Armchair Wanderer]

I'm trusting Coyle to know what he's doing more than me.

The thing with some of these players is their workrate off the ball when playing away against top 6/7. Tracking back, tackling, putting a shift in. Petrov is probably much better than Taylor with the ball. It depends on tactics. Like others have said, we might get a cricket score if we set up and play like we have been at home.

I'm going to the game and I'm going to be very interested in what formation we go with. Apparently we've been working on different formations over the summer.

[Newfan55]

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!

0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

[BWFC_Insane]

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!
0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

Did you see the Birmingham game? Davies was 10 times more effective up on his own.

He's best as a lone striker, always will be IMO. Never looks right playing in a front two.