Arsenal v Bolton (match thread)

[Newfan55]

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!
0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

Did you see the Birmingham game? Davies was 10 times more effective up on his own.

He's best as a lone striker, always will be IMO. Never looks right playing in a front two.

I wouldnt say 10 time more effective. I think davis and elmander looked to b a deadly combo 2 of the 3 goals scored vs west ham came from davis working with elmander i believe. i think often times when we use the long bomb to davis he can win the ball in the air but either goes to the opponents defenders or GK. And you cant tell from just 1 game im talking about K. Davis last season when he was in a scoreless drought playing as a lone striker... Just my opinion i respect yours but imma go with mine

[as]

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

The supply that the people you're comparing against is rather better than the supply Davies has had in his career. I think just about all the names you mention are better strikers than Davo for goalscoring ability - although Scholes is a midfielder, but Davo scores a higher percentage of his goals with his head than any of them and the frequency of him doing so is pretty good too. Shearer has a much higher frequency, but the % of goals he got from open play isn't hugely different than Davo's. Just as an aside, Shearer is 6 foot tall...

Headed goals.

Scholes - 18 out of 102 (17.6%) - 447 appearances - heads one in every 25 games...
Owen - 16 out of 147 (10.9%) - 308 appearances - 19.25 games
Fowler - 28 out of 163 (17.1%) - 379 appearances - 13.5 games
Shearer - 46 out of 260 (17.7%) - 441 appearances - 9.5 games
Davies - 22 out of 74 (29.7%) - 378 appearances - 17.1 games

People who know football.....

[potter1989bwfc]

Saturday is damage limitation

Which means what? Extra midfielder? Which means drop whom? Goalscoring captain/fulcrum or form-finding record signing?

Wenger seems to like Bolton under Coyle more than previously, and any further "You Know What To Expect" would further polish his reputation as Queen Whinge.

Drop Lee, Davies on RW M Davies in Centre

Er, no. Why would you want to drop an attacking, pacy midfielder who's happy as Larry to have signed a contract for double his salary?

Because Lee has been poor since the start of the season. I think he deserves a rest, maybe even put Blake in for a few games. Lee has played half a season in Korea, Full season with us then the world cup and how much of a break has he had 2 week?

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!
0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

Did you see the Birmingham game? Davies was 10 times more effective up on his own.

He's best as a lone striker, always will be IMO. Never looks right playing in a front two.

I thought Davies was piss poor like all the team that day. I give him his due it was a good penalty

[BWFC_Insane]

Saturday is damage limitation

Which means what? Extra midfielder? Which means drop whom? Goalscoring captain/fulcrum or form-finding record signing?

Wenger seems to like Bolton under Coyle more than previously, and any further "You Know What To Expect" would further polish his reputation as Queen Whinge.

Drop Lee, Davies on RW M Davies in Centre

Er, no. Why would you want to drop an attacking, pacy midfielder who's happy as Larry to have signed a contract for double his salary?

Because Lee has been poor since the start of the season. I think he deserves a rest, maybe even put Blake in for a few games. Lee has played half a season in Korea, Full season with us then the world cup and how much of a break has he had 2 week?

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!
0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

Did you see the Birmingham game? Davies was 10 times more effective up on his own.

He's best as a lone striker, always will be IMO. Never looks right playing in a front two.

I thought Davies was piss poor like all the team that day. I give him his due it was a good penalty

Davies was superb in the last 20 minutes on his own upfront. Turned the game for us really.

[potter1989bwfc]

Which means what? Extra midfielder? Which means drop whom? Goalscoring captain/fulcrum or form-finding record signing?

Wenger seems to like Bolton under Coyle more than previously, and any further "You Know What To Expect" would further polish his reputation as Queen Whinge.

Drop Lee, Davies on RW M Davies in Centre

Er, no. Why would you want to drop an attacking, pacy midfielder who's happy as Larry to have signed a contract for double his salary?

Because Lee has been poor since the start of the season. I think he deserves a rest, maybe even put Blake in for a few games. Lee has played half a season in Korea, Full season with us then the world cup and how much of a break has he had 2 week?

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!
0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

Did you see the Birmingham game? Davies was 10 times more effective up on his own.

He's best as a lone striker, always will be IMO. Never looks right playing in a front two.

I thought Davies was piss poor like all the team that day. I give him his due it was a good penalty

Davies was superb in the last 20 minutes on his own upfront. Turned the game for us really.

He won the penalty which he put away well, apart from that he didn't do much.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

If he plays Elmander AND Davies, ELmander has to play much deeper and make up the numbers in midfield, otherwise....*gulp*

Agreed.

There seems though to be some confusion over systems here - that a 4-4-2 is automatically gung-ho and that an extra midfielder means we're manning the barricades. Not necessarily the case - it's horses for courses, matching the opposition. Arsenal play five in midfield (and often Arshavin up front) but are they defensive?

It takes an incredibly effective central midfield duo to take charge when outnumbered - that's why Ferguson changed MU's previously all-conquering 4-4-2 a decade ago, because even Beckham/Scholes/Keane/Giggs in their pomp weren't as good as the five-man midfields they met, especially the technically superior European ones.

As ever the key is positional flexibility, but even so, in the modern 4-2-3-1 system the *starting* formation shouldn't be so much

------------Bogdan---------
Steinsson Cahill Knight Robbo
-----------Muamba--------
--------Mavis Holden------
Lee------------------- Petrov
-------------Davo-----------

...as...

------------Bogdan---------
Steinsson Cahill Knight Robbo
--------Muamba-Holden-------
Lee---------Mavis-------Petrov
-------------Davo-----------

That might seem like splitting hairs but it's an important distinction. Instead of dropping Muamba deeper we're simply swapping a striker for an attacking midfielder; let Davo run the front line alone, knowing Elmo's got a shift to come. Meanwhile, when Arsenal have the ball, Mavis drops in alongside the established midfield four - but when we have it, the idea is for he, Lee and Petrov to make up a front four.

[thebish]

that sounds spot on.

I will be more confident (though still not exactly "confident") if we have the midfield numbers to stop Arsenal very simply controlling the game - setting the pace and having us chase shadows. Despite rumours that they have now learned how to deal with sides that close them down - I'm not 100% sure they have. psychologically, though, if even if Arsenal only believe they have now worked out how to play physical sides that snap and harry and close them down - then that is a boost for them.

I'm not looking for 90mins of attritional hoofball, but I do think it is unavoidable step ONE if we have any ambition of getting anything out of this game to harry, harry, harry, harry and harry again and never let any of them settle on the ball - hunting in packs and closing them down - then - we do have the tools in the box now for a pacey breakaway move - OR - for a hoof into the box - I'll accept either if it gets results.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think the team will be similar to what DSB has said.

Personally I don't think it matters 4-5-1 4-4-2, we don't have the midfield to stop Arsenal. Muamba is our only destroyer, Holden as honest and lively as he is was positionally caught out by Brum and Lee Bowyer. So adding Mark Davies to that is not going to help out other than in numbers terms.

So I hope I'm wrong but I can't see much hope away to Arsenal.

[Il Pirate]

Is Van Persie playing?

[Worthy4England]

Is Van Persie playing?

[boltonboris]

------------Bogdan---------
Steinsson Cahill Knight Robbo
--------Muamba-Holden-------
Lee---------Mavis-------Petrov
-------------Davo-----------

That might seem like splitting hairs but it's an important distinction. Instead of dropping Muamba deeper we're simply swapping a striker for an attacking midfielder; let Davo run the front line alone, knowing Elmo's got a shift to come. Meanwhile, when Arsenal have the ball, Mavis drops in alongside the established midfield four - but when we have it, the idea is for he, Lee and Petrov to make up a front four.

That formation is the future of international football for years to come. It's nothing new, but it's been tweaked into an atacking formation. Low set his team up doing this during the World cup and were just unlucky that they met Spain in the semi's

[as]

Drop Lee, Davies on RW M Davies in Centre

Er, no. Why would you want to drop an attacking, pacy midfielder who's happy as Larry to have signed a contract for double his salary?

Because Lee has been poor since the start of the season. I think he deserves a rest, maybe even put Blake in for a few games. Lee has played half a season in Korea, Full season with us then the world cup and how much of a break has he had 2 week?

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!
0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

Did you see the Birmingham game? Davies was 10 times more effective up on his own.

He's best as a lone striker, always will be IMO. Never looks right playing in a front two.

I thought Davies was piss poor like all the team that day. I give him his due it was a good penalty

Davies was superb in the last 20 minutes on his own upfront. Turned the game for us really.

He won the penalty which he put away well, apart from that he didn't do much.

Didn't do much?

Good heavens, I was drunk and could see that he turned the game. He was outstanding in the 2nd half.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

------------Bogdan---------
Steinsson Cahill Knight Robbo
--------Muamba-Holden-------
Lee---------Mavis-------Petrov
-------------Davo-----------

That formation is the future of international football for years to come. It's nothing new, but it's been tweaked into an atacking formation. Low set his team up doing this during the World cup and were just unlucky that they met Spain in the semi's

Fabio Capello certainly hopes so - it's the formation he's played in the last two games, only Rooney hasn't had quite so many defensive duties out of dire necessity. Still tracked back though.

[BWFC_Insane]

------------Bogdan---------
Steinsson Cahill Knight Robbo
--------Muamba-Holden-------
Lee---------Mavis-------Petrov
-------------Davo-----------

That formation is the future of international football for years to come. It's nothing new, but it's been tweaked into an atacking formation. Low set his team up doing this during the World cup and were just unlucky that they met Spain in the semi's

Fabio Capello certainly hopes so - it's the formation he's played in the last two games, only Rooney hasn't had quite so many defensive duties out of dire necessity. Still tracked back though.

Mavis or Rooney, Mavis or Rooney hmmmmmm.....

[boltonboris]

------------Bogdan---------
Steinsson Cahill Knight Robbo
--------Muamba-Holden-------
Lee---------Mavis-------Petrov
-------------Davo-----------

That formation is the future of international football for years to come. It's nothing new, but it's been tweaked into an atacking formation. Low set his team up doing this during the World cup and were just unlucky that they met Spain in the semi's

Fabio Capello certainly hopes so - it's the formation he's played in the last two games, only Rooney hasn't had quite so many defensive duties out of dire necessity. Still tracked back though.

I don't think Gerrard has played as defensively as the formation suggests. But he's certainly bee more disciplined. He also looked the player we all thought he was! I still maintain though, that I'd hate to play alongside him. You'd never get a bloody kick for all his Hollywood passes.

I'm not sure that's the formation that Capello has been using in the last 2 games though, aside from Gerrard. It's the same as during the World Cup. Left midfielder inverted, Cole providing the width to free up space on the other flank for Walcott / Lennon / Johnson to get one-on-one with the full back. Hence Rooney's dropping deep to spray the ball out there

[Sir Nut]

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

The supply that the people you're comparing against is rather better than the supply Davies has had in his career. I think just about all the names you mention are better strikers than Davo for goalscoring ability - although Scholes is a midfielder, but Davo scores a higher percentage of his goals with his head than any of them and the frequency of him doing so is pretty good too. Shearer has a much higher frequency, but the % of goals he got from open play isn't hugely different than Davo's. Just as an aside, Shearer is 6 foot tall...

Headed goals.

Scholes - 18 out of 102 (17.6%) - 447 appearances - heads one in every 25 games...
Owen - 16 out of 147 (10.9%) - 308 appearances - 19.25 games
Fowler - 28 out of 163 (17.1%) - 379 appearances - 13.5 games
Shearer - 46 out of 260 (17.7%) - 441 appearances - 9.5 games
Davies - 22 out of 74 (29.7%) - 378 appearances - 17.1 games

People who know football.....

Oi, wiki boy. You know what them stats tell me, that they have all scored more open play headers than Davies, also they are all smaller than him and we play 90% of our game around Davies, thanks for clearing that up for me.

[TANGODANCER]

He won the penalty which he put away well, apart from that he didn't do much.

Some blokes mix cement all day, others run it up and down ladders. They work their bollox off and when the house is finished the bricklayer and the plasterer get told "Nice job mate". Well, the others didn't do much did they?

[Sir Nut]

Tango, we will be lucky to see Davies getting on the end of one of Petrovs, Lee's cross from open play and he'll only score 2 or 3 max from open play with his head. I think he's scored about 15 in his whole career. The fact he already has made his run before the cross has been made means - for him to score with his head it needs to be absoloutely perfect and delivered right on his noggin.

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

I never stated - smash goalkicks to his head, what i mean by set pieces is if we have a free kick around the half way line or further in, Taylor has the delivery to cause havok in the box and Davies has the pressence to cause Mayhem when deep in thier box, he doesnt have to head it to anyone, he just needs to head it (it can bounce anywhere), now when he heads it from goal kicks and just heads it 9 times out of 10 it falls to one of thier players meaning they have possesion. Elmander is having to guess where he is heading the ball.

Thanks for all that. After watching Bolton for sixty years, from Nat onwards, I think I might know what heading a ball's about. Davies inevitably gets pushed, pulled and barged in the back when, as I said, jumping for headers eight feet off the deck. His job is to drag defenders around and stop them winning the headers, something he does with great success, although most of the time, until very recently, he's been the only one up there anyway. If he gets the right balls from the wings he scores, he did it against Chelsea and again the disallowed one against Fulham last season by doing just that. When was the last time we had running wingers who could deliver early balls? I've nothing at all against Elmander and Klasnic being up front, but against big defenders they won't have Davies's effect. Horses for courses and, for me, Arsenal need to be harrassed. Nobody's better at that than Davies.

That header was a corner not from open play. Davies gets pushed pulled and barged, oh yeah and he just stands there does he? Also its no good making sure the defenders dont win the headers at the half way line when its a 1/4 chance of us getting it anyway. Theres a difference when Elmander heads the ball, he directs it to a player, Davies just makes a nuiscance of himself and lets it hit his head randomly behind him which makes it close to impossible for someone to guess where he's going to head it. You know why Big sam didnt go for wingers? because he knew Davies wouldnt work in that system, he's a set piece player who takes the biggest defenders out of the equation. Arsenal dont need to be relaxed they need to be countered, if we attack them we will get hammered just like Blackpool did.

[TKIZ!]

Drop Lee, Davies on RW M Davies in Centre

Er, no. Why would you want to drop an attacking, pacy midfielder who's happy as Larry to have signed a contract for double his salary?

Because Lee has been poor since the start of the season. I think he deserves a rest, maybe even put Blake in for a few games. Lee has played half a season in Korea, Full season with us then the world cup and how much of a break has he had 2 week?

I have to say we should drop Lee for this match because he was playing a friendly match in Korea this week so he needs rest.

Having said that i dont think packing midfield in a 4-5-1 is good idea. We should come out hard and play aggressively in a 4-4-2 to get that all mighty first goal and maybe...a very slight chance we can hold the 1 goal lead!! Realistically tho... fabregas is probably going to run the show and we wont have any posession but i dont like the idea of "lets come out play defensively and grind out a win... we're never going to score like this imo. K.davis as a lone striker?? i dont think this works anymore.... he's a great player up front when u got another clinical striker with him like Klasnic and well... elmander a little bit this year!!
0-1 for BOLTON is my prediction!!

Did you see the Birmingham game? Davies was 10 times more effective up on his own.

He's best as a lone striker, always will be IMO. Never looks right playing in a front two.

I thought Davies was piss poor like all the team that day. I give him his due it was a good penalty

Davies was superb in the last 20 minutes on his own upfront. Turned the game for us really.

He won the penalty which he put away well, apart from that he didn't do much.

That's just balls. Played well scond half

[TANGODANCER]

Tango, we will be lucky to see Davies getting on the end of one of Petrovs, Lee's cross from open play and he'll only score 2 or 3 max from open play with his head. I think he's scored about 15 in his whole career. The fact he already has made his run before the cross has been made means - for him to score with his head it needs to be absoloutely perfect and delivered right on his noggin.

Think of players like Scholes, Owen, Shearer, Fowler ect all under 6 foot but scored goals with their heads for fun, its all about clever movement and Davies well just isnt clever when it comes to making runs, watch him, he passes the ball, he then just runs to the back post behind the defender not adapting to where the ball's being played (Lampard does the simular thing for England).

I never stated - smash goalkicks to his head, what i mean by set pieces is if we have a free kick around the half way line or further in, Taylor has the delivery to cause havok in the box and Davies has the pressence to cause Mayhem when deep in thier box, he doesnt have to head it to anyone, he just needs to head it (it can bounce anywhere), now when he heads it from goal kicks and just heads it 9 times out of 10 it falls to one of thier players meaning they have possesion. Elmander is having to guess where he is heading the ball.

Thanks for all that. After watching Bolton for sixty years, from Nat onwards, I think I might know what heading a ball's about. Davies inevitably gets pushed, pulled and barged in the back when, as I said, jumping for headers eight feet off the deck. His job is to drag defenders around and stop them winning the headers, something he does with great success, although most of the time, until very recently, he's been the only one up there anyway. If he gets the right balls from the wings he scores, he did it against Chelsea and again the disallowed one against Fulham last season by doing just that. When was the last time we had running wingers who could deliver early balls? I've nothing at all against Elmander and Klasnic being up front, but against big defenders they won't have Davies's effect. Horses for courses and, for me, Arsenal need to be harrassed. Nobody's better at that than Davies.

That header was a corner not from open play. Davies gets pushed pulled and barged, oh yeah and he just stands there does he? Also its no good making sure the defenders dont win the headers at the half way line when its a 1/4 chance of us getting it anyway. Theres a difference when Elmander heads the ball, he directs it to a player, Davies just makes a nuiscance of himself and lets it hit his head randomly behind him which makes it close to impossible for someone to guess where he's going to head it. You know why Big sam didnt go for wingers? because he knew Davies wouldnt work in that system, he's a set piece player who takes the biggest defenders out of the equation. Arsenal dont need to be relaxed they need to be countered, if we attack them we will get hammered just like Blackpool did.

Er, yeah, okay.