The Trotters v Spurs

[Worthy4England]

I know Asian friends who have referred to themselves as Pakis. And I'm offended by that. And when I've told them, they've apologised.

To be honest, I can count the number of Asian friends on oine hand, but I can also count the number of friends I have on two hands. But what's your point? Does the number of friends within a certain demographic automatically stop your right to be offended by vile behaviour?

Oh, and I'll lighten up when we're not glorifying or trivialising vile, racist language, thank you.

Why is it more vile than calling someone a Manc, if it's not perjorative? I call myself a Manc - I wouldn't expect anyone to get upset over it and certainly wouldn't apologise for it. It's where I'm from.

[as]

I know Asian friends who have referred to themselves as Pakis. And I'm offended by that. And when I've told them, they've apologised.

To be honest, I can count the number of Asian friends on oine hand, but I can also count the number of friends I have on two hands. But what's your point? Does the number of friends within a certain demographic automatically stop your right to be offended by vile behaviour?

Oh, and I'll lighten up when we're not glorifying or trivialising vile, racist language, thank you.

So your 'mates' apologise to you for referring to themselves in a way you don't like?

Of course they do.

I'm offended by nowt, you should try it sometime, then again you'll help keep Points Of View on telly in future, so I'll pass on your regards to the BBC.

As fer't match.......... yids 2 northern peasants 0

[Worthy4England]

I think you'll find Northen Monkey's is the appropriate term...

[KeeeeeeeBaaaaaaab]

They have. One, at first, was as scathing as you are. But, when I explained why I'd been surrounded by that word as a youngster in such hateful tones that I wouldn't want to hear that word again, they understood and apologised.

These are guys that are involved in youth football coaching in West London, so have had all manners of abuse thrown at them from sidelines. But they're also big enough and adult enough to accept that these things aren't as pigeonholed as most people think.

I'd love to be offended by nothing. There isn't much that offends me, but there are things. Obviously being offended by something makes you completely soft and incapable of being an adult.

And now I'll move on, safe in the knowledge that there's at least one person on here that thinks offence at something = rabid over-reactionary.

[Puskas]

I know Asian friends who have referred to themselves as Pakis. And I'm offended by that. And when I've told them, they've apologised.

To be honest, I can count the number of Asian friends on oine hand, but I can also count the number of friends I have on two hands. But what's your point? Does the number of friends within a certain demographic automatically stop your right to be offended by vile behaviour?

Oh, and I'll lighten up when we're not glorifying or trivialising vile, racist language, thank you.

Why is it more vile than calling someone a Manc, if it's not perjorative? I call myself a Manc - I wouldn't expect anyone to get upset over it and certainly wouldn't apologise for it. It's where I'm from.

Worthy - I'm not sure whether you're being inordinately disingenuous or hugely naive.

The word isn't merely a contraction of Pakistani - it's used (and I've only ever heard it used) as a term of abuse for anyone from South Asia. Not, like Manc, as a description from someone from a certain area. I don't recall the NF in the 70s not beating up folk from Sri Lanka or India because they were only interested in "paki bashing"

[Puskas]

When I was a lad our neighbour had a black labrador called "Ni....". Used to wake me up late at night shouting it out after he'd let the dog out for a number 1 or number 2.

You lived up Daubhill, didn't you

He had a second dog, called C+++

That's good.

Was he an aspirant object-oriented programmer who got a little over-enthusiastic?

[thebish]

I think the use of the word "yids" here is interesting - and probably merits discussion..

most accounts suggest that the origin as a name for Spurs was yonks ago when they had a large Jewish fanbase - and "yid" songs were chanted by away fans as racial abuse - in much the same kind of way that monkey noises were made at black players...

(incidentally - chelsea and west ham fans are still occasionally found singing songs such as "I'd rather be a paki than a jew" in and around white hart lane.)

the story goes - and there seems no reason to doubt it - that spurs fans turned the tables by using the word "yids" to describe themselves - hence "yid army" - in precisely the same way as some sections of the black community have appropriated the word "Nigger" and sections of the GLBT community have embraced the word "queer" - and some black shopkeepers will call any white customer "boss" - in a kind of ironic affirming fashion.

it can be empowering for groups to do this - else they wouldn't do it

(I think the same is happening over words like "nerd" and "geek"... nerds and geeks are describing themselves with such words - which takes the sting out of them...)

what I DON'T think is acceptable is for others then to resume using them.

what complicates the matter is that most of the spurs fans using the title "yid army" are NOT jewish - i suspect miost of them have no real idea why they use it - but I also suspect that there are some that use it deliberately - even though they are NOT jewish - in much the same way as non-jews sewed yellow stars to their clothing - or a whole hillside shouted out - "I'm Spartacus"

to a lesser degree - it is fine for me to call myself a "northern bastard" - but NOT fine for a southerner to call me that - because out of their lips it is an entirely different thing - for me it is pride - for them it is abuse.

now - that's not all that complicated, is it?

[Lofthouse Lower]

How do you explain our supporters singing songs about 'still having foreskins' when at White Hart Lane?

Racist? Cretinous? Ill-educated?

[thebish]

How do you explain our supporters singing songs about 'still having foreskins' when at White Hart Lane?

Racist? Cretinous? Ill-educated?

all of the above.

[Worthy4England]

I know Asian friends who have referred to themselves as Pakis. And I'm offended by that. And when I've told them, they've apologised.

To be honest, I can count the number of Asian friends on oine hand, but I can also count the number of friends I have on two hands. But what's your point? Does the number of friends within a certain demographic automatically stop your right to be offended by vile behaviour?

Oh, and I'll lighten up when we're not glorifying or trivialising vile, racist language, thank you.

Why is it more vile than calling someone a Manc, if it's not perjorative? I call myself a Manc - I wouldn't expect anyone to get upset over it and certainly wouldn't apologise for it. It's where I'm from.

Worthy - I'm not sure whether you're being inordinately disingenuous or hugely naive.

The word isn't merely a contraction of Pakistani - it's used (and I've only ever heard it used) as a term of abuse for anyone from South Asia. Not, like Manc, as a description from someone from a certain area. I don't recall the NF in the 70s not beating up folk from Sri Lanka or India because they were only interested in "paki bashing"

I'm being neither disingenuous nor naive.

There's plenty of connotations to the word "Paki" and it's not a word that I use. As you mention, you've only heard it as a term of abuse. I did play cricket once-over for a team that was comprised mainly of people either from Pakistan or from England, but who were from Pakistani descent. Often they would descibe some of our overseas Pakistani players as Pakis, occasionally they would call themselves Pakis. No-one would bat an eyelid. I certainly wasn't offended by it, but wouldn't have used the word myself.

Just because some folk want to put a particular spin on a word, doesn't mean it always has that particular spin associated with it.

[CrazyHorse]

Let's move on; this is a match thread.

I wonder, shall I use my invisibility super power for good or for evil?

[Montreal Wanderer]

Isn't 'yid' a bit, like, racist?

They call themselves that. I think if we censor the use of that term then we shouldn't be able to refer to ourselves as Trotters or Wanderers

Some black people use the N word to describe themselves, and I've heard the use of that horrible, sick "P" word used by people who have probably been abused by that word by sick bastards before. Is it OK if we start using them again, if "they" call "themselves" that?

What's the 'p' word? Feel free to link to the Wikipedia article so that it can remain academic and all.

We need a turn-our-season-around moment. Might as well be two doubles.

I would guess it begins with pak but I'm not sure tbh.

[thebish]

I know Asian friends who have referred to themselves as Pakis. And I'm offended by that. And when I've told them, they've apologised.

To be honest, I can count the number of Asian friends on oine hand, but I can also count the number of friends I have on two hands. But what's your point? Does the number of friends within a certain demographic automatically stop your right to be offended by vile behaviour?

Oh, and I'll lighten up when we're not glorifying or trivialising vile, racist language, thank you.

Why is it more vile than calling someone a Manc, if it's not perjorative? I call myself a Manc - I wouldn't expect anyone to get upset over it and certainly wouldn't apologise for it. It's where I'm from.

Worthy - I'm not sure whether you're being inordinately disingenuous or hugely naive.

The word isn't merely a contraction of Pakistani - it's used (and I've only ever heard it used) as a term of abuse for anyone from South Asia. Not, like Manc, as a description from someone from a certain area. I don't recall the NF in the 70s not beating up folk from Sri Lanka or India because they were only interested in "paki bashing"

I'm being neither disingenuous nor naive.

There's plenty of connotations to the word "Paki" and it's not a word that I use. As you mention, you've only heard it as a term of abuse. I did play cricket once-over for a team that was comprised mainly of people either from Pakistan or from England, but who were from Pakistani descent. Often they would descibe some of our overseas Pakistani players as Pakis, occasionally they would call themselves Pakis. No-one would bat an eyelid. I certainly wasn't offended by it, but wouldn't have used the word myself.

Just because some folk want to put a particular spin on a word, doesn't mean it always has that particular spin associated with it.

there is a distinction you are (deliberately?) not seeing...

it is one thing for someone from Pakistan to refer to himself or his friends/family from pakistan as "paki" - it might, in that case be slang (simple contraction) or pride

it is quite another for some one NOT from pakistan to use the term - why? - because of the history of racial abuse that is attached to it.

the same is true of words like "queer", "nigger", "dyke"

in a slightly different - perhaps milder way - it is OK for my daughter (as she does) to call me "that boring fat baldy minister" when asked who did the service at church that morning - it would NOT be ok for someone else's child to do so.

surely you can see this?

[CrazyHorse]

Well done.