Nat Lofthouse statue

[thebish]

Can you post a close-up of the head? To be honest that's really the most important part.

I found this photo which might be useful. You can zoom in for more detail by first clicking on the magnifying glass icon in the top right of the photo and then using the + button in the top left. You can then move around the photo by clicking and dragging the mouse:

http://picasaweb.google.com/10206197702 ... 1230922722" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd be very surprised if that's not at least one of the photos used... the hairline is spot on..

I appreciate that detail is hard with plasticine - but I suspect it is in the prominence of the eyebrows (Nat had quite neanderthal eyebrows!) that it's not quite right - and nat's nose isn't as "flared" in the nostril as the maquette.... needs that oafish/crooked smile too!

[BL3]

Please feel free to make further constructive criticism, it really does help!

I think that the face should be a little bit more elongated. At the moment he's bit too square jawed. I also think that the hair looks a bit 'flat'.

I tried grafting the hair from your first model onto your second model in Photoshop and adding a slightly narrower chin and lower jawline from the photo i posted a link to earlier. Obviously the chin isn't quite at the right angle but there is now a definate resemblance to Nat:

[TANGODANCER]

Considering the scale worked on I thinks that's very good John, very good indeed. I can see where you're going with it and, life-sized and viewed from below it should finish up excellent if your Fred Dibnah head is anything to go by. I truly hope you getthe commission if it gets agreed to. Keep up the good work and the very best of luck.

[John Pilkington]

Can you post a close-up of the head? To be honest that's really the most important part.

I totally agree that in a portrait (sculpture or painting) the facial likeness is crucial, but it is only a PART of what is required when you are looking at a full length pose. There are some real "howlers" out there because the body proportions are all wrong. The classic one being the one of Ted Bates at Southampton:


and there is also another which Boltonians will also know well!

Every individual creates his own unique "shape" and we recognise people we know from a distance because we recognise their "shape" and we don't need to see their faces close up to know its them. In sculpture, since the medium (i.e. clay, bronze, plasticine) is monochrome we have to create shadows and highlights to give the "illusion" rather than use colours to create the image. Therefore, a portrait sculptor has to identify the specific shadows that any individual creates and use the medium to recreate those same shadows and highlights in the portrait, and often, the least amount of fussy detail creates the most effective shadows. i.e less is more. For example, if you try to produce life-like eyes in sculpture with full eyeballs, the face looks like a zombie, whereas, if you create a shadow under the eyebrow by omitting an eye, just to create shade, that looks considerably more life-like. Likewise, the face is constantly moving in action, so if you use a standing posed face on a sculpture of someone running, then they will look like an idiot, so copying the image you've linked wouldn't look right at all!

I could spend endless hours more on the maquette seeking absolute perfection, but that's not the purpose of a maquette: it's not meant to be a finished work in itself. If I get the commission I will take as long as it takes to ensure that the finished work has the required likeness for a permanent commemoration. What I'm really asking on this forum is can you point out any obvious glaring faults so that any larger work based on my maquette wouldn't produce another "Ted Bates".

[ajwbolton]

Considering the scale worked on I thinks that's very good John, very good indeed. I can see where you're going with it and, life-sized and viewed from below it should finish up excellent if your Fred Dibnah head is anything to go by. I truly hope you getthe commission if it gets agreed to. Keep up the good work and the very best of luck.

everything he said - bloody brilliant mate. there's just one part of me keeps seeing Crocodile Dundee in it....

[BL3]

I could spend endless hours more on the maquette seeking absolute perfection, but that's not the purpose of a maquette: it's not meant to be a finished work in itself. If I get the commission I will take as long as it takes to ensure that the finished work has the required likeness for a permanent commemoration. What I'm really asking on this forum is can you point out any obvious glaring faults so that any larger work based on my maquette wouldn't produce another "Ted Bates".

If the club had approached you then you might have a point. But if you're going to pitch to them for a statue which could cost over £100,000 to produce, then they're probably going to want to know exactly what it will look like. If that means making a maquette out of clay, then that's what you have to do. Otherwise why should they commission you, rather than say, the guy who created the Tom Finney statue?

[TANGODANCER]

I think you can see and understand John, that having some beautiful sculptures in our town: the Cenotaph in the town hall square, Samuel Crompton, the lone soldier at Dunscar etc, folk are a bit wary of another Fred monster or that deformed midget in your pic, not exactly masterpieces to say the least.

[John Pilkington]

If the club had approached you then you might have a point. But if you're going to pitch to them for a statue which could cost over £100,000 to produce, then they're probably going to want to know exactly what it will look like. If that means making a maquette out of clay, then that's what you have to do. Otherwise why should they commission you, rather than say, the guy who created the Tom Finney statue?

I take your point absolutely. In answer: for all the reasons that I've given in my previous posting about shadows and highlights in sculpture, my maquette actually looks better when you see it "live" than it does in photographs, because the slightest movement of your head shows the 3D form of the maquette whereas a photograph only shows 2D from a fixed viewpoint. I intend to ask those in charge of commissioning the statue to see my maquette and an another over life-size bust of Nat that I've already made. If they were then to ask me to produce another speculative piece after what they've seen so far then I'll be in the position to produce the work that THEY might want for further consideration. If left to my own devices I have several ideas for a finished work, but if its a case of making something specific to someone else's requirement I've got to know what they want before I can attempt to make it. I am not proposing my maquette should form the finished piece. As it is, the powers that be may already have chosen their desired sculptor, in which case I may well be wasting my time?

At the end of the day the choice will be theirs and not mine. I'm sure that nobody in Bolton wants to see another sculptural "howler" get erected. I certainly don't!

I think you can see and understand John, that having some beautiful sculptures in our town: the Cenotaph in the town hall square, Samuel Crompton, the lone soldier at Dunscar etc, folk are a bit wary of another Fred monster or that deformed midget in your pic, not exactly masterpieces to say the least.

I understand absolutely! This is the reason why I've produced a maquette and an over life-size bust of Nat, so that the powers that be can see what I can do. If they don't like my work or they can find someone better, I can certainly live with that, but if all other sculptors under consideration have to do the same then there won't be another howler in Bolton and that will really please me because, as you say there's some excellent work around the town. I am a Boltonian myself. In essence, I'm laying down a marker.

If those who'd commissioned the Ted Bates statue had asked to see a maquette from the sculptor of that howler BEFORE it was made, then if he'd produced a miniature of the finished version, even without any detail, they would've seen that the proportions are ALL WRONG, so how could the finished work ever be right? Likewise, if they'd seen the full-size statue in clay BEFORE it was prepared to be cast in bronze, then they should have pulled the plug on the job. The same applies to the howler in Bolton.

[CAPSLOCK]

So, did you do the Dibnah one?

[John Pilkington]

So, did you do the Dibnah one?

If you mean the statue in Oxford Street, I most certainly did NOT! I'd love to make a replacement of it though and I'd do the work for FREE!

I did the bust of Fred which is in Bolton Museum see here: http://www.freddibnah.co.uk/fred-bronze ... museum.htm

[CAPSLOCK]

Thats OK

I was gonna ask how you manage to pay your bills

[John Pilkington]

I've spent just a little more time on the maquette today and put a lot more effort into taking a decent photograph to capture the highlights and shadows. I hope you all agree that the resemblance is now pretty damned close, especially bearing in mind the scale and that it's made in plasticine.

[Montreal Wanderer]

It's over fifty years since I saw him, John, but it seems to me when he played he had a thinner squarer face, with a bit more hair - but I'm not much of a judge of these things. Good luck with the project.

[BL3]

I intend to ask those in charge of commissioning the statue to see my maquette and an another over life-size bust of Nat that I've already made. If they were then to ask me to produce another speculative piece after what they've seen so far then I'll be in the position to produce the work that THEY might want for further consideration.

I think you're missing the point to be honest. If you show them something that doesn't quite look like Nat what makes you think they're going to give you another crack at it? As someone else has also pointed out, his face needs to be thinner and you had his hair right in the first model.

I also think that you're underestimating the role that the supporters play. The club and Nat's family will ultimately decide whether this project happens but it's almost certainly going to be the supporters who will be paying for it. If you get the supporters on board then you will probably have a better chance of getting the commission.

[CrazyHorse]

I also think that you're underestimating the role that the supporters play. The club and Nat's family will ultimately decide whether this project happens but it's almost certainly going to be the supporters who will be paying for it.

Are you organising a whip round then?

Us lot don't have role to play in this project and we certainly won't be paying for it.

[BL3]

Are you organising a whip round then?

Us lot don't have role to play in this project and we certainly won't be paying for it.

Yes we do and yes we will.

Are you aware of the many attempts that have been made to get this project off the ground in the past? Every single one of them has been an initiative by the supporters.

Who do you think paid for the statues of Tom Finney at Preston? Stan Mortensen at Blackpool? The club or the supporters?

[CrazyHorse]

Oh, ok then. I stand corrected.

I'll expect the information pack and donation details to be plopping through my letterbox any day now then shall I?

[John Pilkington]

I think you're missing the point to be honest. If you show them something that doesn't quite look like Nat what makes you think they're going to give you another crack at it? As someone else has also pointed out, his face needs to be thinner and you had his hair right in the first model.

I also think that you're underestimating the role that the supporters play. The club and Nat's family will ultimately decide whether this project happens but it's almost certainly going to be the supporters who will be paying for it. If you get the supporters on board then you will probably have a better chance of getting the commission.

BL3,

I do agree with your point that I will only get one chance to create a first impression.

However, I think that you are failing to see the whole point of a maquette. It is NOT intended to be a finished work in itself. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquette. You seem to be focusing your attention all on a facial likeness to YOUR personal satisfaction in a maquette and not on a finished piece. I am able to produce a facial likeness to any given pose, but clearly the pose that I have chosen to use in the maquette isn't to your liking. You say that I had the hair right in the first model, but I can tell you that I've NOT changed the hair at all since taking that particular photo!

I'd like to ask you to take another look at that statue of Ted Bates and identify all the faults in that work and then please point out to me any similar errors in form and proportions in my maquette, because those are the inherent errors that need to be rectified at the "maquette stage" not the absolute facial likeness.

You are more than welcome to come to my place and see for yourself the maquette "live" in 3D and you can give me your input and I can then make adjustments to your liking.

Take a look at these two photos and do you think there's the same likeness?

[John Pilkington]

Yes we do and yes we will.

Are you aware of the many attempts that have been made to get this project off the ground in the past? Every single one of them has been an initiative by the supporters.

Who do you think paid for the statues of Tom Finney at Preston? Stan Mortensen at Blackpool? The club or the supporters?

I know of two statues of footballers, one of which has been paid for by the FA and the other by the Northwest Regional Development Agency.

It might be worth the BW fans making an approach to both these bodies for funding.

[BL3]

I know of two statues of footballers, one of which has been paid for by the FA and the other by the Northwest Regional Development Agency.

It might be worth the BW fans making an approach to both these bodies for funding.

Perhaps you should talk to the BWSA before you approach the club: http://www.thebwsa.co.uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They should be able to give you more details about the ongoing discussions with the club.