Time to go

[enrdentw]

I don't want Coyle to leave. Successful teams in this country all have long standing managers. All of these managers Wenger, Fergie, Moyes etc have all had their rough patches. Yes it's seen as a massive gamble to give managers time, especially in this day and age but I think coyle deserves at least 3 more games.

If he does go... Anyone fancy a punt on Solskjaer???

[truewhite15]

WW - we were totally outplayed for the first half v Norwich

Sunderland - started brightly, once it got a bit rough, we went hiding, and got battered

We've got no less than we deserve

Agreed CAPS and I have not said otherwise.

Though we were the better side second half against Norwich which I put down to the removal of KD and we were down a man.

I am merely tying to point out to those who argue we haven't got enough points against the teams we should get points from, that in the 3 games with 11 versus 11 we have won 2 and lost one. We lost the other 2 with 10 men - not necessarily Coyle's fault.

We only have 3 "winnable" games with a full team with which to judge him and we won 2.

I put it down to the fact that they were two goals and one man up at half time, and they promptly decided to shift down two gears at half time and park the bus. Legitimately. We would not have been "better" than Norwich in that second half had we still been with a full compliment, and if we'd only conceded 1 instead of 2.

The same thing happened against Chelsea. We get dicked first half, the other team backs off and then we look half decent in the second half because of that. Weirdly, Sunderland was the opposite. Not so bad first half, but then dicked in the second half.

You'll notice that one common theme runs through all these games. Other than the penalty we put away and Boyata's goal, we never, ever, ever, in a month of Sundays, looked like scoring in any of those three. We also looked incredibly weak at the back, and very much like we were gonna concede every time the opposition got the ball. But that's been a common theme of the entire f*cking season.

[Worthy4England]

Buck stops with the Manager - that's why they have the job title "Manager".

You keep talking about half a game here, and half a game there, but half a game doesn't make "points", if you get dicked out of sight in the other half.

As for "facts", last season, we finished 14th - could've easily been 8th, regardless of the paucity of the last few games, so I don't think anyone, when we closed last season off would have been looking to bin Coyle off (although I'm sure some were starting to get concerned in the dramatic dip in form).

This season, we've won 2 out of 10. That's a fact.

We're in the bottom 3. That's a fact.

Coyle is responsible for the performance of team, the buck stops with him and is de facto his "fault" when we don't achieve results that we're supposd to. As it does with any Manager in any walk of life.

This is true, but in the context of the thread as to whether it's time to let him go I think it is important to recognise what is beyond his control - specifically, spending power, injuries and sendings off. If you look at it in that context' as CAPS says, it may be beyond Coyle, and better managers, to do any better. In which case why would you get rid?

As far as talking about half a game here and there I am not sure what you are referring to other than perhaps where I have tried to point out that playing a half with 10 men is detrimental to us and not necessarily in Coyle's control. Of the games discussed we were not "dicked out of sight" in any of them so I am not sure of your point.

Whilst I hear what you're saying on spending power, do you think OC has been given a brief by the Chairman that it doesn't matter if we go down, because we've not spent much. No, neither do I. So whilst this gets my genuine sympathy and I wish it wasn't so - it is. Do you think we haven't spent enough to finish 17th or better?

Injuries - happens to all Managers, again sympathy to OC that it's happened to two of our better players, but they both happened in the transfer window. No one could be "counting" on Savis as part of their long term plans so I'm not even counting him. Most of our injuries are right backs (Boyata, Ricketts, Mears) where we have Steinsson as adequate cover (not saying he's "better than" just that he's adequate cover)

Sendings Off. OC is in charge of discipline at the Club - buck stops with him.

I think OC has had a rough deal on spending, compared to what the last manager got to steady the ship.

I like OC and would like him to succeed.

But even given all the above, and whose "fault" it is, doesn't change where the buck stops.

And none of the above address the core problems that organisationally we look shite.

We could bandy words around what dicked out of sight means, but in my book conceding two goals in a half would generally qualify, although I'm sure there are exceptions, where conceding two goals every 45 minutes actually looks a lot better than it is. We conceded 2 or more in one half against Swansea, Norwich and Sunderland.

Organisation is firmly in OC's sphere of influence. We don't look organised to me. That's probably colouring my view of OC at the minute. I might be prepared to concede some of the points you mentioned, if it looked like we had a fecking clue and were generally organised.

[Worthy4England]

Its possible its an impossible job, though

He's lost Sturridge, Holden, Elmander, Taylor and Lee

Jussi is on the wane - though still a good keeper

Davies is way over the hill

So, 6 big players, and he's replaced 'em with signings, the majority of whom are suspect - at best

I reckon it's beyond him, but its probably beyond some better managers than him

Like I say, its a tough job, and I'd be happy to see him at least making us hard to beat, with some consistency of selection

On that I'd agree. If we looked like we had a clue, were trying our best but just not good enough, I'd probably be saying that we just can't afford to stay in the Prem (albeit can't afford not to be in the Prem either). I still generally say when asked "What's a good season for Bolton?" that 17th or better is pretty good for Bolton, so I don't think I'm generally unrealistic. I don't even "expect" a decent Cup run, which whilst providing a decent distraction and our only real chance of a pot is just a distraction from staying in the Prem.

What I do expect is that players look like they know what they're supposed to be doing, even if they're not good enough to actually accomplish it. It's that, that I'm not seeing at the minute.

[Wandering Willy]

Whilst I hear what you're saying on spending power, do you think OC has been given a brief by the Chairman that it doesn't matter if we go down, because we've not spent much. No, neither do I. So whilst this gets my genuine sympathy and I wish it wasn't so - it is. Do you think we haven't spent enough to finish 17th or better?

Injuries - happens to all Managers, again sympathy to OC that it's happened to two of our better players, but they both happened in the transfer window. No one could be "counting" on Savis as part of their long term plans so I'm not even counting him. Most of our injuries are right backs (Boyata, Ricketts, Mears) where we have Steinsson as adequate cover (not saying he's "better than" just that he's adequate cover)

Sendings Off. OC is in charge of discipline at the Club - buck stops with him.

I think OC has had a rough deal on spending, compared to what the last manager got to steady the ship.

I like OC and would like him to succeed.

But even given all the above, and whose "fault" it is, doesn't change where the buck stops.

And none of the above address the core problems that organisationally we look shite.

We could bandy words around what dicked out of sight means, but in my book conceding two goals in a half would generally qualify, although I'm sure there are exceptions, where conceding two goals every 45 minutes actually looks a lot better than it is. We conceded 2 or more in one half against Swansea, Norwich and Sunderland.

Organisation is firmly in OC's sphere of influence. We don't look organised to me. That's probably colouring my view of OC at the minute. I might be prepared to concede some of the points you mentioned, if it looked like we had a fecking clue and were generally organised.

Firstly, to answer your question: yes I think we probably have spent enough to finish 17th or higher but's let's not forget those plans likely were put in place before the injury to Lee and certainly with a view to having Holden back at the start of this month. These 2 injuries no doubt threw a huge spanner in the works of the likely first team.

Re sendings off: I am struggling a bit with "the buck stops here" stance. I am not sure what more Coyle could do re the Gardner issue. By all accounts he gave Ricky a talking to at half time to tread carefully. Advice that was headed for 5 minutes or so. Is that Coyle's fault? For me, Klasnic's and Wheater's dismissals were soft and the ref's were conned. I accept that no player should square up to another and the manager should make this clear, but there's no legislating for cheating.

Nail on head re organisation. This, along with correct team selection is Coyle's remit and are his weakest characteristics this season. Whatever the cards you are dealt you must have a game plan and every player should know their job. But the biggest concern about Coyle for me this season has been team selection. Many have wanted Robbo and Knight replaced, but it's the persistence in playing KD that baffles me the most. KD has been way worse than Knight or Robbo yet Coyle has persisted. Saturday saw KD dropped and for me was the silver lining on the day. If he is picked on Sunday I'll be giving my head a shake.

What are the solutions? Not sure but I am giving some thought to an idea brought up by Mr Lump on another thread - perhaps it's time to look at bringing in some coaching help. Not sure what the coaching set up is now but it's not working.

Dreadfully disappointing start and like many I want Coyle to succeed. If there was a better manger out there willing to take over then needs must. I still think it's way too early to consider a change. Coyle's perhaps the best choice we have at the moment - if he gets us out of this mess with the resources he has he may just go on to be a great manger. Time will tell.

[Worthy4England]

I think we have to assume that Coyle has a reasonably free reign with his coaching team and if he can't see something's amiss then there's a problem.

For me, the continued selection of KD isn't our most intrinsic problem, although trying to adapt to a different way of playing as KD get older has always been something that would happen sooner or later. If KD isn't firing and all the rest of the team are, then the worst that happens is you might get a lot of 0-0 draws. The major problem isn't KD IMO, although it's something that need resolving.

I'm not even convinced that Robbo is the whole of the problem , although I have no doubt in my mind that he's not up to it and the CD on his side gets dragged out of position to cover too many times.

Both the MF and Defense look a complete shambles when we don't have the ball. The MF looks completely lightweight to me and whilst I don't have a major problem with Petrov, Eagles and Pratley when we have the ball, it's a horrifying group when we don't. The number of times we see teams just bypass our MF completely at speed turning and attacking position to us, into and attacking position to them is beyond a joke.

There won't be too many times you score three in a game (the best average over a season is less than 3 per game when Chelsea bagged 103), so you aren't going to win too many if you're conceding 2.

We've conceded 2, 8 times out of 10 this season and 15 times last. That's 50% of our games that we have little chance of winning (although there'll be an occasional 2-2, 3-2, 4-2 etc.). Of the 18 games left in a season, you then need to win 13 of them and grab a draw, to get to 40 points. Only win 10 and you have to draw the other 8 to get to 38 points (so no 1-0 losses). It's a tough ask.

[BWFC_Insane]

If anyone watched Newcastle play last night, they were everything we are not.

Solid, organised, players doubling up to protect full backs, compact, had an idea what they wanted to do going forwards....

They haven't spent massive amounts of money.

We beat them 5-1 last season.....

[BL3]

If anyone watched Newcastle play last night, they were everything we are not.

They haven't spent massive amounts of money.

They've spent twice as much as us, but then you thought that we'd spent more than Norwich or Swansea. Ever thought of checking your facts before you start posting this drivel?

[CAPSLOCK]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

[BL3]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

...and we've lost Sturridge, Elmander and Taylor, not to mention CYL and Holden.

[Sponge]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

...and we've lost Sturridge, Elmander and Taylor, not to mention CYL and Holden.

Elmander and Taylor were hounded incessantly by the fans when they were here—"not good enough", "Championship quality", "too slow", etc., etc.—and yet, somehow, losing them has contributed to our current problems? Fickle, fickle, fickle.

[BWFC_Insane]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

...and we've lost Sturridge, Elmander and Taylor, not to mention CYL and Holden.

Point still stands that a team we beat 5-1 last season, who have lost 4 of their top players since are now organised and structured and getting results in a way we can't.

Even if you say Newcastle have better players, there is NO excuse for how they are clearly well organised and structured compared to the organisational shambles that we resemble.

[thebish]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

...and we've lost Sturridge, Elmander and Taylor, not to mention CYL and Holden.

Point still stands that a team we beat 5-1 last season, who have lost 4 of their top players since are now organised and structured and getting results in a way we can't.

Even if you say Newcastle have better players, there is NO excuse for how they are clearly well organised and structured compared to the organisational shambles that we resemble.

that's the genius of top, top managers like Alan Pardew...

[BL3]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

...and we've lost Sturridge, Elmander and Taylor, not to mention CYL and Holden.

Elmander and Taylor were hounded incessantly by the fans when they were here—"not good enough", "Championship quality", "too slow", etc., etc.—and yet, somehow, losing them has contributed to our current problems? Fickle, fickle, fickle.

What's that got to do with anything? We've lost players who needed to be replaced, preferably with players who were at least as good. The manager was given half the money Newcastle have spent to replace the players that they lost. Perhaps that's a factor in the start that the two clubs have made to this season.

[CAPSLOCK]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

...and we've lost Sturridge, Elmander and Taylor, not to mention CYL and Holden.

Theyre top, we're bottom

[BL3]

They've spent twice as much as us

Ermm, having weakened the team to the tune of Carroll, Enrique, Nolan and Barton, I reckon their net spend stands scrutiny against ours

...and we've lost Sturridge, Elmander and Taylor, not to mention CYL and Holden.

Theyre top, we're bottom

...and they've spent twice as much as we have. This is like Groundhog Day.

[Lord Kangana]

I feel like Von Rundstedt in 1944 when he was asked what should be done.

How the f*ck we were meant to be replacing these players when we clearly have no money, and when the likes of Sean Davis are on fat contracts eating away at our wage budget and can't play doesn't seem to have been discussed in any detail.

So, when Lee and then Mears got injured, who were we supposed to bring in with no money and very little room for manoeuvre?

[BWFC_Insane]

If anyone watched Newcastle play last night, they were everything we are not.

They haven't spent massive amounts of money.

They've spent twice as much as us, but then you thought that we'd spent more than Norwich or Swansea. Ever thought of checking your facts before you start posting this drivel?

Just looked up Newcastles spending.

This summer they spent 12.5M (no loans)

Compared to our £7M (3 loans). Let assume our loans in total cost £1M in fees (which is more than likely on the low side). That puts us on £8M.

You are saying that the entire difference between Newcastle and us can be attributed to a 4.5M spending differential?

Given that we've already established both sides have lost key players??????????

[Athers]

and David Santon for £5m has barely played yet. They lost a great full back in Enrique and have a good defence with Ryan Taylor playing there.

[BL3]

If anyone watched Newcastle play last night, they were everything we are not.

They haven't spent massive amounts of money.

They've spent twice as much as us, but then you thought that we'd spent more than Norwich or Swansea. Ever thought of checking your facts before you start posting this drivel?

Just looked up Newcastles spending.

This summer they spent 12.5M (no loans)

Compared to our £7M (3 loans). Let assume our loans in total cost £1M in fees (which is more than likely on the low side). That puts us on £8M.

You are saying that the entire difference between Newcastle and us can be attributed to a 4.5M spending differential?

Given that we've already established both sides have lost key players??????????

They've spent 14.3M Euros compared to our 7.9M, not to mention the fact that we are almost certainly offering lower wages than they are. We've spent the same amount as Wigan. It's no real surprise that they're the only team below us.