Palace Game

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

It's intriguing. There's lots of different ways of training. Back in the day, Bobby Robson used to have his players doing "dry runs" in training - working on set moves, like spreading it wide and crossing it in, without opponents. The players at PSV thought it was weird but they won the league.

We fans are very quick to marvel at players doing what we see as the bloomin' obvious, usually followed with "on that sort of money...!" But AT is right that any training should involve a certain amount of repetition in order to get it into muscle memory. Beckham practiced crossing and free-kicks with borderline obsession; before a world tour, The Rolling Stones will still rehearse 'Satisfaction'. The phrase "the more I practise, the luckier I get" is popular and apt for a reason. And as Dr Karl points out, players whom many had given up on (Alonso, Ream) are suddenly getting consecutive clean sheets, including at Palace where the home side haven't failed to score in months on end.

Long may working on the blooming' obvious continue, if it gets results and the players don't get disenchanted.

[mrkint]

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was in Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid that one day an opposition scout went to see Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan side do some training the day before a game or something. His crin was blithered by what he saw - the 11 players on the pitch without a ball, moving around as a unit. Sacchi would shout out where the ball was and each player would then move quickly to where they were drilled to be on the pitch whenever the ball was in such an area.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I remember reading somewhere, I think it was in Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramid that one day an opposition scout went to see Arrigo Sacchi's AC Milan side do some training the day before a game or something. His crin was blithered by what he saw - the 11 players on the pitch without a ball, moving around as a unit. Sacchi would shout out where the ball was and each player would then move quickly to where they were drilled to be on the pitch whenever the ball was in such an area.

I still remember after 20 odd years my first basketball coach bellowing on about elastic. When in defence we were expected to always move as one unit and retain an exact shape. This was practised in every training session I ever had in that team. There was no ball involved. we became so good at it that we could all anticipate each others movements and everyone could adjust instinctively. No coincidence we had the best defence in the league year after year.

I also remember back to being a teenager and attending one of Phil Neal's training sessions at Burnden Park. 70% of the session involved the players running up and down the steps in the stands. The rest was pairs passing to each other. No wonder we were shit back then

[mrkint]

Yeah I remember doing similar for basketball as a wee lad, and also for rugby working on the defensive line.

[thebish]

Yeah I remember doing similar for basketball as a wee lad, and also for rugby working on the defensive line.

ditto for rugby.... though - in our case - i think it was because we were so CRAP with the ball that we could never string enough passes together to drill any kind of shape!!! the ONLY way to do it was without the ball!

(we were fecking ACE with no ball!!!)

[Bruce Rioja]

But as Freedman seems more about the long haul than the short fix

Which is exactly how Coyle set his stall out, yet proved to be useless on both counts.

I may be expecting too much, but I'd like a manager that can work with what he's got whilst shaping things for the long haul.

Freedman's banged on for several weeks now about not knowing his best team or formation - surely he found pretty much that for the Birmingham game. So why's he ditched it?

Largely he's played the same team for the four league games from (and including) the Brum match.

He did make two changes for Milwall - Ricketts in for Mears, and N'gog in for Pratley. Other than that the rest of the team have been the same.

I'm referring more to the formation. It worked a treat. Why's he ditched it?

[BWFC_Insane]

But as Freedman seems more about the long haul than the short fix

Which is exactly how Coyle set his stall out, yet proved to be useless on both counts.

I may be expecting too much, but I'd like a manager that can work with what he's got whilst shaping things for the long haul.

Freedman's banged on for several weeks now about not knowing his best team or formation - surely he found pretty much that for the Birmingham game. So why's he ditched it?

Largely he's played the same team for the four league games from (and including) the Brum match.

He did make two changes for Milwall - Ricketts in for Mears, and N'gog in for Pratley. Other than that the rest of the team have been the same.

I'm referring more to the formation. It worked a treat. Why's he ditched it?

He reverted back to it against Palace and took pelters on here.

[thebish]

But as Freedman seems more about the long haul than the short fix

Which is exactly how Coyle set his stall out, yet proved to be useless on both counts.

I may be expecting too much, but I'd like a manager that can work with what he's got whilst shaping things for the long haul.

Freedman's banged on for several weeks now about not knowing his best team or formation - surely he found pretty much that for the Birmingham game. So why's he ditched it?

Largely he's played the same team for the four league games from (and including) the Brum match.

He did make two changes for Milwall - Ricketts in for Mears, and N'gog in for Pratley. Other than that the rest of the team have been the same.

I'm referring more to the formation. It worked a treat. Why's he ditched it?

He reverted back to it against Palace and took pelters on here.

are you suggesting Freedman changed his formation because of what is written on here????

[Enoch]

I don't think BWFC_Insane is suggesting anything of the kind, nor can I see why anyone might think he was!

[Bruce Rioja]

He reverted back to it against Palace and took pelters on here.

Well, I wasn't there so don't know what formation he played, but it stacks up with playing Davies up top in a one - though I certainly haven't read any of these 'pelters' you mention.

[Always hopeful]

If our players aren't naturally ace, then what the hell are they doing playing for us?

Surely people who are getting paid handsomely for being professional footballers, shouldn't need to be coached in the most basic skills of defending?

This really is a poor reflection of the Coyle era if Knight is openly admitting that covering and doubling up is something they've had to work on in training. I don't know about you, but I'd have kept that quiet.

Because it isn't about just turning up. You practice and you practice so it becomes 2nd nature. You stop that practice or make it irregular then the brain doesn't retain it so it is 2nd nature. It becomes vague and you have to think about it. Thinking about stuff before acting in any fast paced sport doesn't work. Training is generally quite repetitive for a reason.

You also have to take into account the number of different coaches and managers a player encounters in a career. One coach might tell you to do one thing and then the next tells you the exact opposite. We're in a transition from playing 5-a-side in training for the last couple of years to doubling up on certain opposition attackers, positioning and shape. It is a change of habit and this can take a while. How much you get paid has nowt to do with it.

Finally. If players aren't being coached to counter specific threats before a game then what are they supposed to be doing? Dougie knows Zaha better than any other manager. If he didn't have specific plans and coach the team leading up to the game to counter someone like Zaha then we really should be worrying about what goes on at the club. If we're lambasting Coyle for lack of preparation and proper coaching then lets not lambast the current manager for actually trying to coach and prepare the team.

Thanks for the sports science lecture(s). Of course I've never played any sport in my life, so I really appreciate you pointing out what happens and why practice is necessary. Most insightful.

You're missing my point. The way I read Knights comments were as though being coached to double up and cover each other was something new. This is what I found strange. On reflection, I was probably being too simplistic. However, it wouldn't have surprised me if this level of coaching had been missing when Coyle was in charge.

I agree wholeheartedly that its great to see that they're considering the basics and working on these in training. Similarly, I'm equally pleased that Freedman appears to be at least considering a game plan.

Btw, I'm not quite sure why you suggest anyone is lambasting Freedman for trying to coach the players. I don't think there's any evidence of anyone doing that?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Thanks for the sports science lecture(s). Of course I've never played any sport in my life, so I really appreciate you pointing out what happens and why practice is necessary. Most insightful.

You're missing my point. The way I read Knights comments were as though being coached to double up and cover each other was something new. This is what I found strange. On reflection, I was probably being too simplistic. However, it wouldn't have surprised me if this level of coaching had been missing when Coyle was in charge.

I agree wholeheartedly that its great to see that they're considering the basics and working on these in training. Similarly, I'm equally pleased that Freedman appears to be at least considering a game plan.

Btw, I'm not quite sure why you suggest anyone is lambasting Freedman for trying to coach the players. I don't think there's any evidence of anyone doing that?

There has been lots of speculation about Coyle's training methods or lack of them. Possibly started by comments made by players in interviews and on the telly. Given the shambles of the last couple of years I can believe it. You appeared to be questioning why players needed to be coached the basics. I was merely sharing my experience of training having played a sport at a much higher level than most experience. Not meant as condescending as you seem to have taken it. Lambast was possibly the wrong word, but there have certainly been plenty questioning his methods. I'm no freedman apologist, but from the outside he appears to be trying to do the right things. Not sure he's been that successful yet, but I'm happy to give him a bit of time. If nothing has changed towards the end of the season then I wont be so forgiving.

[bobo the clown]

Freedman has returned us to the basics. It's on this thread somewhere that, when he first arrived the players were extolling his fresh new approach, his use of more 'scientific coaching' (you know, the stuff Sam Allardyce was a master at) and that training was harder, more directed and they were now (I remember this one especially .... made by Sam Ricketts) "learning the duties of the player to each side, in front & behind of us. This has let us appreciate what's going on around us better".

None of this is the faintest criticism of Freedman. It's a big crit of Cptn. Chaos and his team and, to be honest, of players who should do this in their sleep.

If he's restored things which should be fundamental, but weren't then good for him. I agree with Hopeful's view that going all evangelical and 'praise the Lord' over him doing it is strange as it IS a bit like coaching players not to shoot directly toward the keeper.

Fundamentals they may be, but at least we are moving back to them.

[Armchair Wanderer]

Freedman has returned us to the basics. It's on this thread somewhere that, when he first arrived the players were extolling his fresh new approach, his use of more 'scientific coaching' (you know, the stuff Sam Allardyce was a master at) and that training was harder, more directed and they were now (I remember this one especially .... made by Sam Ricketts) "learning the duties of the player to each side, in front & behind of us. This has let us appreciate what's going on around us better".

None of this is the faintest criticism of Freedman. It's a big crit of Cptn. Chaos and his team and, to be honest, of players who should do this in their sleep.

If he's restored things which should be fundamental, but weren't then good for him. I agree with Hopeful's view that going all evangelical and 'praise the Lord' over him doing it is strange as it IS a bit like coaching players not to shoot directly toward the keeper.

Fundamentals they may be, but at least we are moving back to them.

'Xactly!