Tuesday's Trip to Tranmere

[PC1978]

I think that the injury "excuse" is more prevalent now than ever as (for the first time in recent years) the club has actually come out and said that there is a one in and one out policy on recruiting first team players.

has the club actually said this - publicly?

I am sure that Dougie has even if the club hasn't. And if you look at our summer transfer dealings, how many times has one player left and one arrived within a day of each other since the preseason began. I am also counting the injury to Holden as being one out!

I'm aware that there is a theory around that this is the policy - I just don't think the club has actually said it - have they? (the club and BWFCi are not the same thing! )

I haven't checked but I was sure that Dougie had said that he needed to sell (at least get wages off the bill) in order to buy in either some interview or twitter q+a jobber.

[Lord Kangana]

He's been gone nearly a year. Perhaps its time we started to actually sort the mess out, wouldn't you say? Or is it easier to say plenty and do nothing?

i'd say douglas sorted it last year. its the lack of money thats biting 'em now, hence douglas's over egging of the spearing signing as if we'd just signed a player for a billion dollars. that's still coyle's fault. but luckily for him he brown nosed his way into spending some other chumps money.

i think i know how that'll end up.

bolton might turn it round, i dunno, megson out.

I would agree that signing Spearing was all Coyle's fault. I still don't know how that impacts negatively on us now. These are the same players that got us to 7th last year. With, of course, some additions. So the difference is now that Coyle signed them and Dougie coaches them? F*ck it, I don't know why I'm even having this conversation, pwrhaps we should wait for the miraculous 35th month?

[BWFC_Insane]

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?

of course that's a factor - but there are not many periods of our recent history when we have not been "missing key players" for one reason or another... it can't be the ONLY factor, though, can it?

Nor is it the only factor that our manager is useless as some people seem to think and repeatedly tell everyone after every bad result.

no - i agree - those who insist it is ONE THING: crap manager, rubbish players, bad luck, whatever - are equally tedious!

dougie is not a crap manager and neither is he a magician
the squad is decent enough to be managed into playing a decent game it's not utter rubbish
we have had bad luck and injuries - but we always have - suck it up
we haven't got the cash of QPR - but then we already have a decent squad
some of the players ARE bought by the previous manager - some of them Dougie rates highly - Knight, Ngog, Eagles... he hasn't been able to buy a whole new team - but then how many managers get to do that? he's brought quite a few in - and quite a few of them are playing...

it's complex - there are probably myriad intersecting reasons for our poor form (and poor form it is!)

i'm nowhere near the point (despite what BWFCi claims) of calling for dougie to be sacked - nowhere near... but equally, I don't think he's performing as we hoped/anticipated - I expect him to get far more out of the resources he has got than he has, so far, this season...

The injuries are particularly bad right now though. Mark Davies, Holden (for a third time) and Wheater all damaging knee ligaments.

Wheater may have "re-done" the same injury last night. That is pretty tough for a squad to take.

Then add our main creative player Eagles being injured first game of the season, then Craig Davies seemingly now has something serious. On top of Ream possibly being out a while with a hamstring and Tierney also reported to have an injury. And NGog seemingly being "perma injured".

That is a fairly horrific run.

I don't like using injuries as an excuse because I think often managers hide behind them a bit. I think the pertinent point has been made above though. We aren't able to increase the squad numbers only one in one out. And yes Dougie has said that is the policy multiple times.

Which means that two injuries or in some cases one, in key positions and we're down to kids, who as we saw last night aren't up to the level we need.

You will note that when Dougie picked what I thought was the wrong team for the QPR game I criticised him for it. I certainly think there are a whole gamut of factors going on here.

But I stand by my opinion that if we had nearer a fully fit squad out there playing and we were suffering the same results I'd be asking more questions of Dougie.

But I agree with Dougie's assessment that beyond our first team we have little that offers much for the level we all want to be at. That does not mean that I think every decision he makes is right or that he doesn't take some blame for the situation. However, Dougie has very consistently said all summer that the squad is not strong enough. He said it very firmly at the fans forum before a ball had been kicked. I think he was and is right. And unless we are able to bring in 2 or 3 more players at first team level, we need to have a lot of luck with injuries that doesn't seem to be happening right now.

[TANGODANCER]

Get Kevin Davies back as the coach for "How to play every week without getting injured"

[thebish]

see, Insane one - you and I are broadly of the same opinion - much as it may irritate you!

our poor form is down to dougie making bad managerial decisions - AND injuries - AND a couple of yet-to-be-made key signings

we both agree it is not just one thing - but a combination.

this meeting of minds should be celebrated

[thebish]

Get Kevin Dsvies back as the coach for "How to play every week without getting injured"

aye! saw a bloke with a badly dislocated finger this morning - and told him to man-up like KD and have me just snap it back into place! (he declined - wuss!)

anyway - Kev! currently (not) banging 'em in for Preston...

[BWFC_Insane]

see, Insane one - you and I are broadly of the same opinion - much as it may irritate you!

our poor form is down to dougie making bad managerial decisions - AND injuries - AND a couple of yet-to-be-made key signings

we both agree it is not just one thing - but a combination.

this meeting of minds should be celebrated

However, I criticised him for the QPR team. With the benefit of hindsight I'm not actually sure what I'd have done to change it. I'm not sure if we had anyone available to start who was good enough to have made a difference and possibly he went with the best 11 players he had fit and available. It isn't easy this criticism lark!

[PC1978]

see, Insane one - you and I are broadly of the same opinion - much as it may irritate you!

our poor form is down to dougie making bad managerial decisions - AND injuries - AND a couple of yet-to-be-made key signings

we both agree it is not just one thing - but a combination.

this meeting of minds should be celebrated

Even Jose makes bad decisions every now and then. I reckon (as I am sure most will) that Dougie makes far less than the previous guy in charge and he is also a lot quicker to recognise this and try to put it right. I joined this debate when the post that basically said "I told you so he was the wrong manager" came on. And I do realise that wasn't you Bish! It irks me that a bad run of form can result in a knee-jerk reaction of sack the manager regardless of other factors which can be taken into account. Especially when I would struggle to think of a manager I would have more confidence in long term that would, and we could afford to, actually join us. (Cue Dan with Bothroyd!!) I was surprised that Dougie would even jump a rising ship for the challenge he was inheriting here when we appointed him to be honest.

[PC1978]

see, Insane one - you and I are broadly of the same opinion - much as it may irritate you!

our poor form is down to dougie making bad managerial decisions - AND injuries - AND a couple of yet-to-be-made key signings

we both agree it is not just one thing - but a combination.

this meeting of minds should be celebrated

However, I criticised him for the QPR team. With the benefit of hindsight I'm not actually sure what I'd have done to change it. I'm not sure if we had anyone available to start who was good enough to have made a difference and possibly he went with the best 11 players he had fit and available. It isn't easy this criticism lark!

My thoughts on that team when I saw it was along the lines of it looked okay but I would much prefer Eagles or Mavies in for Lee.

[BWFC_Insane]

see, Insane one - you and I are broadly of the same opinion - much as it may irritate you!

our poor form is down to dougie making bad managerial decisions - AND injuries - AND a couple of yet-to-be-made key signings

we both agree it is not just one thing - but a combination.

this meeting of minds should be celebrated

Even Jose makes bad decisions every now and then. I reckon (as I am sure most will) that Dougie makes far less than the previous guy in charge and he is also a lot quicker to recognise this and try to put it right. I joined this debate when the post that basically said "I told you so he was the wrong manager" came on. And I do realise that wasn't you Bish! It irks me that a bad run of form can result in a knee-jerk reaction of sack the manager regardless of other factors which can be taken into account. Especially when I would struggle to think of a manager I would have more confidence in long term that would, and we could afford to, actually join us. (Cue Dan with Bothroyd!!) I was surprised that Dougie would even jump a rising ship for the challenge he was inheriting here when we appointed him to be honest.

I reckon Jose gets loads "wrong". Though its all a bit subjective.

Against Man Utd he played for a 0-0 for much of the match with no recognised striker.

If Dougie did that he'd get battered by Bolton fans.

It is when managers keep doing the same things over and over and they keep having the same results. Or when it seems that players are not really playing for a manager that you have to worry IMO.

[89bwfc89]

What've I missed re Tierney? Reports of injury? From where?

[BWFC_Insane]

What've I missed re Tierney? Reports of injury? From where?

BBC. Radio Manchester. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23863352" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Nothing to do with the fact we are missing several key players then?
Take players of the quality of Eagles and Mark Davies out of any of the favourites for this league and they will struggle.
Most people agreed that whoever came in that it would be a big job to turn around the decline in our club but some people just like to post the same old, monotonous managerial dagger stabs after every game which goes badly.

I'm not saying the likes of Eagles and Mavies aren't big misses, but we've been trotting something very very similar to what you said for a while now. The relegation season, last season and now this season.

Genuine question. At what point does it stop being unlucky with injuries and where does it start becoming an issue with the management of the problem?

I'm happy at this stage to accept he has brought in new people to deal with the science bit and some new medical type people. Hopefully we'll see this start to bear fruit. That said, Dougie should have plans in place to deal with the fallout from injuries. We've 2 defenders that have been returning from long(ish) injuries in Wheater, Mills and Mears. Whilst we've brought in 2 full backs and lost one. We also have the youngster injured. I'm not convinced Dougie has done enough there. Look at the creative side and you could argue the same. I don't know how much is money, but I'm not convinced we've prioritised correctly.

I've somewhat rambled, but my main point is can we really continue with the injury excuse into the 3rd season?

I think that the injury "excuse" is more prevalent now than ever as (for the first time in recent years) the club has actually come out and said that there is a one in and one out policy on recruiting first team players. This means that if you lose four defenders or two of your creative midfielders or whatever, then your options are far more limited. Gone are the days where we could say suchabody is out for 6 months so we just buy or loan another. Likewise, managers in the past few years (none more so than Allardyce) drafted in seemingly endless streams of potentially good players for little or no fees but taking a wage. Most of these players turned out to be useless but there was the odd diamond in the mix as we well know. I just think it is unfair at the minute to put all the blame at Dougie's door when the situation at the club is like it is. I trust that when he can ship out a defender or two that he will sign somebody up to standard and the club will turn around. Alternatively, I also trust that when we have the likes of Eagles or Mark Davies or even a fully fit and up to speed Moritz that our creative side of things will be fine.

Basically, I am saying stop the panic as we have had a lot of bad luck both with injuries and with what I saw as a very difficult first 6 matches. But leave Dougie alone for a bit to see what happens between now and Christmas at the very least. When the whole of the Reebok are saying something akin to why has he subbed Muamba or why 4-4-2 with Kev up front then get on his back.

But my issue is that we knew we had injuries but have done little to mitigate against those players not getting back to fitness.

Defence from last season:
Wheater - returning from long term injury
Knight - fit
Mills -returning from medium term injury
Ream - fit
Riley - injured
Alonso - left club
Mears - returning from illness/injury
Ricketts - released/sold
Dawson - loan ended

We've replaced Alonso and brought in Baptiste. In my opinion we've taken a huge risk that players will get fit and remain fit that have spent a fair amount of time injured in recent months/this year. Is it really a shock that we're short of options now when we could only reasonably expect 2 from last season to be fully fit and raring to go, with 2 newbies added?

Acknowledging the restricted budget Dougie is working under, I would have been prioritising a defender before anything else. Even if it was a loan to cover the first couple of months of the season.

[PC1978]

I would have said that the defence is the more pressing at the minute but going into the pre-season attack and midifeld (especially with Holden's injury) were equally as pressing. The reason we have strengthened other areas in my view is because we have been able to ship out players from those positions. Had Mills or Mears gone then I would hope that Dougie had someone lined up ready to come in, as he seems to have been doing in other positions. Perhaps if this doesn't happen before the 2nd Sept, then he may be allowed to get in another loan until January.

[shoot and score]

I think that Freedman has been stuck with some players (whilst good players as you say) that are incompatible with each other. I would rate Wheater or Knight or Mills in this division as individual players, but not rate any two of them as a central defensive pair. I think in the long term that he will be a success but it was always going to take a long time to sort out.

HE GOT RID OF RICKETTS WHO COULD PLAY ANYWHERE ALONG THE BACK AND LOOKED OUT FOR ZK. WHEN CAHILL WAS RED CARDED RICKETTS DIDNT PUT A FOOT WRONG AT CB SO WHY DIDHE LET HIM GO?

[BWFC_Insane]

But my issue is that we knew we had injuries but have done little to mitigate against those players not getting back to fitness.

Defence from last season:
Wheater - returning from long term injury
Knight - fit
Mills -returning from medium term injury
Ream - fit
Riley - injured
Alonso - left club
Mears - returning from illness/injury
Ricketts - released/sold
Dawson - loan ended

We've replaced Alonso and brought in Baptiste. In my opinion we've taken a huge risk that players will get fit and remain fit that have spent a fair amount of time injured in recent months/this year. Is it really a shock that we're short of options now when we could only reasonably expect 2 from last season to be fully fit and raring to go, with 2 newbies added?

Acknowledging the restricted budget Dougie is working under, I would have been prioritising a defender before anything else. Even if it was a loan to cover the first couple of months of the season.

Isn't that what Dougie has pretty much been saying all summer? He's essentially been pleading for more resources.

We have gaps all over the show. People can write names down but in terms of the required quality we have no Eagles replacement (been shown). No NGog replacement. No Mark Davies replacement (Moritz- big maybe). No Pratley replacement. Spearing and Medo cover each other so probably ok there.

The back four needs attention. I just don't think he's been given the money to sort all this out. Argue over whether we should have spent it on Spearing or someone else, but the vast majority of Bolton fans were calling for Spearing back and given Andrews early performances I doubt many were happy with that midfield.

I was panicking in the summer about not signing a centre back and I got told not to panic. Can we officially panic yet?

I just hope Eddie will sign a few more cheques because I think it will turn ugly otherwise.

[PC1978]

I think that Freedman has been stuck with some players (whilst good players as you say) that are incompatible with each other. I would rate Wheater or Knight or Mills in this division as individual players, but not rate any two of them as a central defensive pair. I think in the long term that he will be a success but it was always going to take a long time to sort out.

HE GOT RID OF RICKETTS WHO COULD PLAY ANYWHERE ALONG THE BACK AND LOOKED OUT FOR ZK. WHEN CAHILL WAS RED CARDED RICKETTS DIDNT PUT A FOOT WRONG AT CB SO WHY DIDHE LET HIM GO?

He replaced him with Baptiste. I was a big fan of Ricketts but his best days were well behind him in my view. He was 32(???) and had a lot of previous trouble with injuries.

[Lord Kangana]

Didn't Dougie give Wheater a new contract? Its hardly like he's wanted to ship them all out, is it?

[PC1978]

Didn't Dougie give Wheater a new contract? Its hardly like he's wanted to ship them all out, is it?

I didn't say he wanted to ship them all out. He probably sees Wheater as a long term replacement for Knight.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

But my issue is that we knew we had injuries but have done little to mitigate against those players not getting back to fitness.

Defence from last season:
Wheater - returning from long term injury
Knight - fit
Mills -returning from medium term injury
Ream - fit
Riley - injured
Alonso - left club
Mears - returning from illness/injury
Ricketts - released/sold
Dawson - loan ended

We've replaced Alonso and brought in Baptiste. In my opinion we've taken a huge risk that players will get fit and remain fit that have spent a fair amount of time injured in recent months/this year. Is it really a shock that we're short of options now when we could only reasonably expect 2 from last season to be fully fit and raring to go, with 2 newbies added?

Acknowledging the restricted budget Dougie is working under, I would have been prioritising a defender before anything else. Even if it was a loan to cover the first couple of months of the season.

Isn't that what Dougie has pretty much been saying all summer? He's essentially been pleading for more resources.

We have gaps all over the show. People can write names down but in terms of the required quality we have no Eagles replacement (been shown). No NGog replacement. No Mark Davies replacement (Moritz- big maybe). No Pratley replacement. Spearing and Medo cover each other so probably ok there.

The back four needs attention. I just don't think he's been given the money to sort all this out. Argue over whether we should have spent it on Spearing or someone else, but the vast majority of Bolton fans were calling for Spearing back and given Andrews early performances I doubt many were happy with that midfield.

I was panicking in the summer about not signing a centre back and I got told not to panic. Can we officially panic yet?

I just hope Eddie will sign a few more cheques because I think it will turn ugly otherwise.

If money is as scarce as you and Dougie are saying then why did we spend a couple of million and probably top end of our range wages for Spearing? Most of us like Spearing and most of us are happy to have him, but no way was it a priority signing.

Did Dougie really follow the crowd? Did he really rush a decision that Andrews was pants in a couple of games, yet spent the summer deciding Zat was his man and Wheater was worth a new contract?

Don't get me wrong. I think Dougie should be given more time and I do think we've had some bad luck. I also think the priorities are not quite right and I don't think he's made best use of what is at his disposal (funds and personnel). I hope he turns it around, but at the moment I'm struggling to see what the plan is other than hope Eagles gets fit and WBA relent and let us have Dawson.