Would you...

[Lord Kangana]

I'm not sure I'd send PG to the corner shop. If I did he'd have to show me the receipt.

And if you did then you'd have to hope that the shopkeeper could tell him which goods and services are VAT rated and which aren't. Isn't Gartside a Management Accountant by profession? This really is embarrassing.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/111 ... ?ref=var_0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I see Mark Curtis name has been dragged up again. Phil Gartside seems to have made a decent living out of stunning naivety.

[TANGODANCER]

I'm really struggling to understand, when asked why he was happy with the 1.8 mil fine, Gartside said it had gone on too long he was satisfied. Why on earth didn't he show anger and say " I'm not happy, or satisfied with it. I have to accept it because that's what the court ruled. Happy doesn't describe being sick as a parrot at losing 1.8 million".......or something similar?

Amount edited to 1.8.

[Harry Genshaw]

It shows how fecked up football has become that when a manager decides he wants to buy a well known established Premiership player like Gavin McCann, we have to stump up £300k to agents to help 'get the transfer done'

[bobo the clown]

Amazing.

I'm not really a "Gartside Out" sort of guy, but this suggests he's either inept or bent.

You know, I think I prefer the idea of bent ??

[Puskas]

When you've invested over £100M in a business you can decide who you want to let run it. Until then your opinion is rather moot, no?

So only those with money are entitled to an opinion?

Sounds like the dark ages again.

If thats the case, then lets quickly abandon the Forum and close it down immediately as none of us are now entitled to our opinion

Woah why are you sticking the word entitled in?

It has nothing to do with being entitled to an opinion or otherwise. Eddie has invested the money, into a business. Who he chooses to run it surely is then, entirely up to him?

The "football is just a business" argument has always struck me as being a tad disingenuous. It clearly is rather more than that - there is an emotional attachment that doesn't come with buying a tin of beans, and owners have long exploited that.

If it is just a business, then consider the rather sub-standard product that has been on offer at the Reebok for the past few seasons, and compare it to what's available a few miles down the road. What would you say to a customer who thinks "sod this, I'm off to the Etihad"? If it's "fickle, glory-hunting bastard", you're not really buying into football as a business - you should be congratulating them for being a rational agent making a sensible decision in a free market.

[boltonboris]

When you're completely soulless about the game of football as BWFCI seems to me, to be, then football is just that. a business.

It feck* me off. Said it before. I am NOT a customer. I'm a fvckin' fan.

[jaffka]

to me its not a business its entertainment

regardless of what the sport is a supporter is brand loyal

[BWFC_Insane]

When you're completely soulless about the game of football as BWFCI seems to me, to be, then football is just that. a business.

It feck me off. Said it before. I am NOT a customer. I'm a fvckin' fan.

I'm not really sure why you'd argue I'm soulless about the game? What does that actually mean?

Are you meaning I should be of the view that Eddie is responsible to the fans and should do what they tell him?

Because there are two sides to this. One being the idealogical, how football should be. And the other being the realistic, and unchangeable how football actually works in 2014.

I could pretend that we're living in some parallel utopian universe where football isn't dictated by money, where clubs don't need owners cash to have success and where every team plays 4-4-2 on the deck and the fans only pay £2 to go and sit, or stand on a traditional terrace and where every team is managed by Bruce Rioch and Bolton can buy any great player they want simply because..... And I could hide behind that and argue that is the way it should be and moan about every decision that is taken in reality, based on some fantasy concept for how I think football should be. But it isn't like that so what is the point?

For example I wouldn't (and couldn't) offer up a suggestion as to who Eddie should or shouldn't appoint to run one of his businesses - we're talking Burnden Leisure here, which is wider than just Bolton Wanderers Football Club, any more than I could suggest who the next CEO of Tesco should be....(though I'm really not sure it should matter to me all that much). That doesn't make me some terrible new age football fan with no soul, well not in my eyes at least. It doesn't mean I'm happy that essentially my relationship with the club is to all extents and purposes now, merely boiled down to a contract for a reserved seat at the Reebok in exchange for my direct debit payment. It doesn't mean I'm happy that football has become a rich villains playground.

But it has and I just choose not to pretend otherwise......

[thebish]

When you've invested over £100M in a business you can decide who you want to let run it. Until then your opinion is rather moot, no?

So only those with money are entitled to an opinion?

Sounds like the dark ages again.

If thats the case, then lets quickly abandon the Forum and close it down immediately as none of us are now entitled to our opinion

Woah why are you sticking the word entitled in?

It has nothing to do with being entitled to an opinion or otherwise. Eddie has invested the money, into a business. Who he chooses to run it surely is then, entirely up to him?

The "football is just a business" argument has always struck me as being a tad disingenuous. It clearly is rather more than that - there is an emotional attachment that doesn't come with buying a tin of beans, and owners have long exploited that.

If it is just a business, then consider the rather sub-standard product that has been on offer at the Reebok for the past few seasons, and compare it to what's available a few miles down the road. What would you say to a customer who thinks "sod this, I'm off to the Etihad"? If it's "fickle, glory-hunting bastard", you're not really buying into football as a business - you should be congratulating them for being a rational agent making a sensible decision in a free market.

aye - all of the at spot on... and I doubt BWFCi disagrees with - his post wasn't about it being just a business for the fan - but about Eddie being a business man who owns a fair whack of the club and so has in a sense earned the right to run the club as he sees fit...

of course - even for Eddie it is not "just a business" - If this was the way he normally did business then he'd never have been in the position to put the cash into the club that he has put in (or draw out whatever he has drawn out!)

there must also be summat else to it for Eddie... I have no idea what that is - hobby? fandom? twisted masochism complex? who knows - I don't think he's ever really made that clear!

[TANGODANCER]

to me its not a business its entertainment. regardless of what the sport is a supporter is brand loyal

Exactly, but that's fan/supporter thinking, and the market is created around that very fact. If nobody was going to turn up and watch your team, would there be any club directors driving Mercs and Jags around? Would twenty year old lads be millionaires driving Ferraris' ? It's a supply based on demand, but it's a total business whichever way you cut it. Twenty/thirty, whatever thousand terrace warriors march weekly and queue up to hand over their hard-earned so that the owners, directors, agents and players of their town club can live millionaire lifestyles. A sense of belonging, local pride and roots is their motivation. Can the same be said for Brazillian, Mexican, Nigerian, American, Scandanavian, South Korean, Hungarian etc, players, or even somebody from Bognor Regis or the outer Hebrides who are associated with the club? Business and making a living, mainly lucrative at that, is their tin of beans preference.

To quote Tina: "What's love got to do with it". Eddie Davis must have some though. But for him, considering our current situation, Bolton fans would probably have nowhere to go on Saturdays. Unfortunately, much of his hard-earned has been spent on useless managers and even worse players, eventually creating much less than good business, but business none the less.

Retires to sidelines and waits the flack....

[BWFC_Insane]

to me its not a business its entertainment. regardless of what the sport is a supporter is brand loyal

Exactly, but that's fan/supporter thinking, and the market is created around that very fact. If nobody was going to turn up and watch your team, would there be any club directors driving Mercs and Jags around? Would twenty year old lads be millionaires driving Ferraris' ? It's a supply based on demand, but it's a total business whichever way you cut it. Twenty/thirty, whatever thousand terrace warriors march weekly and queue up to hand over their hard-earned so that the owners, directors, agents and players of their town club can live millionaire lifestyles. A sense of belonging, local pride and roots is their motivation. Can the same be said for Brazillian, Mexican, Nigerian, American, Scandanavian, South Korean, Hungarian etc, players, or even somebody from Bognor Regis or the outer Hebrides who are associated with the club? Business and making a living, mainly lucrative at that, is their tin of beans preference.

To quote Tina: "What's love got to do with it". Eddie Davis must have some though. But for him, considering our current situation, Bolton fans would probably have nowhere to go on Saturdays. Unfortunately, much of his hard-earned has been spent on useless managers and even worse players, eventually creating much less than good business, but business none the less.

Retires to sidelines and waits the flack....

Fans turning up at grounds aren't even all that relevant to the business model of a Premiership club.......

[TANGODANCER]

Fans turning up at grounds aren't even all that relevant to the business model of a Premiership club.......

Well, let's say the business model might need a re-think if they didn't then?

[mrplow]

to me its not a business its entertainment. regardless of what the sport is a supporter is brand loyal

Exactly, but that's fan/supporter thinking, and the market is created around that very fact. If nobody was going to turn up and watch your team, would there be any club directors driving Mercs and Jags around? Would twenty year old lads be millionaires driving Ferraris' ? It's a supply based on demand, but it's a total business whichever way you cut it. Twenty/thirty, whatever thousand terrace warriors march weekly and queue up to hand over their hard-earned so that the owners, directors, agents and players of their town club can live millionaire lifestyles. A sense of belonging, local pride and roots is their motivation. Can the same be said for Brazillian, Mexican, Nigerian, American, Scandanavian, South Korean, Hungarian etc, players, or even somebody from Bognor Regis or the outer Hebrides who are associated with the club? Business and making a living, mainly lucrative at that, is their tin of beans preference.

To quote Tina: "What's love got to do with it". Eddie Davis must have some though. But for him, considering our current situation, Bolton fans would probably have nowhere to go on Saturdays. Unfortunately, much of his hard-earned has been spent on useless managers and even worse players, eventually creating much less than good business, but business none the less.

Retires to sidelines and waits the flack....

Fans turning up at grounds aren't even all that relevant to the business model of a Premiership club.......

I think that the matchday income makes up around 25% of the total Premiership revenue. Which would make it relevant. Also, I'm not sure there would be a global tv audience for matches played in empty grounds ?

[thebish]

I think that the matchday income makes up around 25% of the total Premiership revenue. Which would make it relevant. Also, I'm not sure there would be a global tv audience for matches played in empty grounds ?

good point! maybe the fans should get appearance money?

[Puskas]

aye - all of the at spot on... and I doubt BWFCi disagrees with - his post wasn't about it being just a business for the fan - but about Eddie being a business man who owns a fair whack of the club and so has in a sense earned the right to run the club as he sees fit...

of course - even for Eddie it is not "just a business" - If this was the way he normally did business then he'd never have been in the position to put the cash into the club that he has put in (or draw out whatever he has drawn out!)

there must also be summat else to it for Eddie... I have no idea what that is - hobby? fandom? twisted masochism complex? who knows - I don't think he's ever really made that clear!

Well, yes (and I think Boris's description of BWFCI as soulless was somewhat harsh.) However I do think that, for all his professions of just being a realist, he's missing something fundamental that seems to have changed - the breaking of what might be termed the Footbaling Social Contract.

We, as fans, are Bolton Til We Die, and so on. But, along with that, comes a certain responsibility on the part of the club/owner, to at least acknowledge what we do (or, at the very least, not take the piss). So whilst Eddie Davies has the legal right to rename the club "the Adolf Hitler and Manchester United Appreciation Society", move the ground to Bangkok and make the fans wade through dogshit before prostrating themselves before a 12-foot high portrait of Mr Alex Ferguson if they want to gain admission, it would be taking the piss. As fans, we're not asking for commercial control (let's face it, there wouldn't be any sort of consensus anyway...) - but simply saying "Eddie Davies can do what he wants, so stop discussing it" is an admission of defeat.

And if we have already lost, then why aren't we behaving like rational consumers and looking for a better product?

If only one side is keeping to the contract, then the whole thing is becoming pointless.

[boltonboris]

When you're completely soulless about the game of football as BWFCI seems to me, to be, then football is just that. a business.

It feck me off. Said it before. I am NOT a customer. I'm a fvckin' fan.

I'm not really sure why you'd argue I'm soulless about the game? What does that actually mean?

Are you meaning I should be of the view that Eddie is responsible to the fans and should do what they tell him?

Because there are two sides to this. One being the idealogical, how football should be. And the other being the realistic, and unchangeable how football actually works in 2014.

I could pretend that we're living in some parallel utopian universe where football isn't dictated by money, where clubs don't need owners cash to have success and where every team plays 4-4-2 on the deck and the fans only pay £2 to go and sit, or stand on a traditional terrace and where every team is managed by Bruce Rioch and Bolton can buy any great player they want simply because..... And I could hide behind that and argue that is the way it should be and moan about every decision that is taken in reality, based on some fantasy concept for how I think football should be. But it isn't like that so what is the point?

For example I wouldn't (and couldn't) offer up a suggestion as to who Eddie should or shouldn't appoint to run one of his businesses - we're talking Burnden Leisure here, which is wider than just Bolton Wanderers Football Club, any more than I could suggest who the next CEO of Tesco should be....(though I'm really not sure it should matter to me all that much). That doesn't make me some terrible new age football fan with no soul, well not in my eyes at least. It doesn't mean I'm happy that essentially my relationship with the club is to all extents and purposes now, merely boiled down to a contract for a reserved seat at the Reebok in exchange for my direct debit payment. It doesn't mean I'm happy that football has become a rich villains playground.

But it has and I just choose not to pretend otherwise......

You seem like the sort who'd swap an FA Cup for another season scrapping it out at 17th in the Premier League because that's where the TV money goes

[BWFC_Insane]

When you're completely soulless about the game of football as BWFCI seems to me, to be, then football is just that. a business.

It feck me off. Said it before. I am NOT a customer. I'm a fvckin' fan.

I'm not really sure why you'd argue I'm soulless about the game? What does that actually mean?

Are you meaning I should be of the view that Eddie is responsible to the fans and should do what they tell him?

Because there are two sides to this. One being the idealogical, how football should be. And the other being the realistic, and unchangeable how football actually works in 2014.

I could pretend that we're living in some parallel utopian universe where football isn't dictated by money, where clubs don't need owners cash to have success and where every team plays 4-4-2 on the deck and the fans only pay £2 to go and sit, or stand on a traditional terrace and where every team is managed by Bruce Rioch and Bolton can buy any great player they want simply because..... And I could hide behind that and argue that is the way it should be and moan about every decision that is taken in reality, based on some fantasy concept for how I think football should be. But it isn't like that so what is the point?

For example I wouldn't (and couldn't) offer up a suggestion as to who Eddie should or shouldn't appoint to run one of his businesses - we're talking Burnden Leisure here, which is wider than just Bolton Wanderers Football Club, any more than I could suggest who the next CEO of Tesco should be....(though I'm really not sure it should matter to me all that much). That doesn't make me some terrible new age football fan with no soul, well not in my eyes at least. It doesn't mean I'm happy that essentially my relationship with the club is to all extents and purposes now, merely boiled down to a contract for a reserved seat at the Reebok in exchange for my direct debit payment. It doesn't mean I'm happy that football has become a rich villains playground.

But it has and I just choose not to pretend otherwise......

You seem like the sort who'd swap an FA Cup for another season scrapping it out at 17th in the Premier League because that's where the TV money goes

I'd want what is best for the success of the football club. It comes down to context.

I'd absolutely love the magic of the FA Cup to be what it was. I'd love for it to be seen as the equivalent of winning the league.

But it isn't and there are a multitude of reasons for that.

If you say would you swap one FA Cup win in exchange for spending the following 25 years in the lower leagues. I think a lot would, but then wouldn't bother turning up for the resulting 25 years.....

[mrplow]

When you're completely soulless about the game of football as BWFCI seems to me, to be, then football is just that. a business.

It feck me off. Said it before. I am NOT a customer. I'm a fvckin' fan.

I'm not really sure why you'd argue I'm soulless about the game? What does that actually mean?

Are you meaning I should be of the view that Eddie is responsible to the fans and should do what they tell him?

Because there are two sides to this. One being the idealogical, how football should be. And the other being the realistic, and unchangeable how football actually works in 2014.

I could pretend that we're living in some parallel utopian universe where football isn't dictated by money, where clubs don't need owners cash to have success and where every team plays 4-4-2 on the deck and the fans only pay £2 to go and sit, or stand on a traditional terrace and where every team is managed by Bruce Rioch and Bolton can buy any great player they want simply because..... And I could hide behind that and argue that is the way it should be and moan about every decision that is taken in reality, based on some fantasy concept for how I think football should be. But it isn't like that so what is the point?

For example I wouldn't (and couldn't) offer up a suggestion as to who Eddie should or shouldn't appoint to run one of his businesses - we're talking Burnden Leisure here, which is wider than just Bolton Wanderers Football Club, any more than I could suggest who the next CEO of Tesco should be....(though I'm really not sure it should matter to me all that much). That doesn't make me some terrible new age football fan with no soul, well not in my eyes at least. It doesn't mean I'm happy that essentially my relationship with the club is to all extents and purposes now, merely boiled down to a contract for a reserved seat at the Reebok in exchange for my direct debit payment. It doesn't mean I'm happy that football has become a rich villains playground.

But it has and I just choose not to pretend otherwise......

You seem like the sort who'd swap an FA Cup for another season scrapping it out at 17th in the Premier League because that's where the TV money goes

I'd want what is best for the success of the football club. It comes down to context.

I'd absolutely love the magic of the FA Cup to be what it was. I'd love for it to be seen as the equivalent of winning the league.

But it isn't and there are a multitude of reasons for that.

If you say would you swap one FA Cup win in exchange for spending the following 25 years in the lower leagues. I think a lot would, but then wouldn't bother turning up for the resulting 25 years.....

Some of us have done 25 years in the lower leagues, without the glory of the FA Cup win...

[boltonboris]

I seem to remember you saying it about Portsmouth and possibly wigan.. I seem to remmeber thinking it was absolute bollocks.They way they've gotten behind the club is fantastic and Pompey's attendances are as high, if not higher than in their last premier league season..

They're in the history books and they're enjoying their football.

[Puskas]

If you say would you swap one FA Cup win in exchange for spending the following 25 years in the lower leagues. I think a lot would, but then wouldn't bother turning up for the resulting 25 years.....

You say that as though it is a bad thing - surely not turning up is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in today's "unchangeable" money-dominated football world?

The owners don't owe the fans anything, the fans don't owe the club anything...