Watford Away 09/08/2014 - Match Thread

[Prufrock]

I'd stick with Davies. But I'd play a more Allardyce-esque three with Mason and Feeney interchanging around him with an attacking midfield player too.

I'd like to see what happened with players around Davies. I don't see a two in there at all. Don't see the need either if we get players around Davies and support him.

problem with davies being a target man is that if you hoof the ball up to him, it never sticks to him - it bounces off and we lose it.. he has no control.. nor does he keep hold of it when he has it and bring others into play...

granted he can whack a ball, give it some welly, but...

1) he's rarely in a position to do so
2) he never receives it to his feet

I agree but none of that is fixed by playing another striker with him. I actually think given his height and power getting more players around him would be beneficial than just having Beckford up there with him.

Key is to get players around the striker not leave them isolated. IMO.

I can't get my head around this, it's agreed that Cravies can't play up front on his own so getting more players around him would help? So we play with Mason (possibly) and Danns to support him. We can't commit to playing both those two too far forward so one, or both, drops back leaving two or one up front??

This works for teams like Chelsea with millions of pounds worth of strikers who have pace and talent to burn, but not for the likes of us with a squad of rejects and "never will be's"

I'd just like to see a basic 4 4 2, I don't think we'll rip up trees doing that, but it might help settle/balance the side.

I don't get htis idea that 4-4-2 is somehow 'basic' and anything else is fancy and can only be done by the v best. Firstly, whilst we don't have Chelsea's millions of pounds worth of strikers with pace and talent to burn, we're not against millions of pounds worth of defenders with pace and talent to burn.

Even in Saturday League football sometimes even a good team playing 4-4-2 will have to change it because their 2 get overrun by another teams three. They're not 'complicated' and 'simple', just 'different' with different ones suiting different sets of players and circumstances.

I haven't seen a lot of Feeney, and may be that his arrival means this 4-2-3-1 works, but without him, I don't think we have either the wide players, or the strikers to make it work. Plus it doesn't seem to suit the twins (in theory it should, but sometimes that doesn't work out).

If we can get a proper target man in then I think we have to play our 4-4-2 which isn't even really a diamond, more a parallelogram. I don't agree that it doesn't suit Mavies 'stuck out on the left' because he isn't. It's more Spearing deep and central, Medo deep and right, Mavies pushed up and left, Danns pushed up and central. With Danns and Mavies plenty license to drift.

[coffeymagic]

I was wondering this morning how long it would take and sure enough in today's BN McNaughton is spouting that Saturday is a 'wake up call' for a 'nervy' Bolton.

How many effing times do we have to have this article reprinted with only the names changed?

In recent years is been Reo Coker or Matt Mills who've been urging their fellow team mates to play like we all know we can and kick start our season and blah blah blah...

If anyone was under any illusion that last year was anything other than a complete washout then surely pre-season did enough to reiterate the fact that we're really not very good.

We've heard it all before. isn't it about time we saw some changes?

Hopefully the League Cup can be the springboard to etc etc....

[TANGODANCER]

This whole modern day management thing has become a joke. A new guy takes on the role of club manager, (including a hefty salary) moves into his new office at Whackem Rovers and immediately wants to change it into the last club he was at. He wants his own training staff, medical advisors and some players based on the fact he knows them from previous lives. He's usually (not always) off the dole because good managers aren't floating around like butterflies and instead of improving the players at what they already do and get paid for he hints at new plans then starts clearing out the wood shed, primarily on his own say-so. Next step, after a couple of seasons of mediocrity is excuses about "bedding in" and "getting settled" etc, etc, and a total ignoring of the fact that the fans can actually see what is (or isn't) happening on the pitch, which isn't much positive.

This is of course fictional and I don't know such a team or manager, but if I did and I were an owner I might just be tempted to say: "You took the job on with this club, players and staff. You did that because you think you can manage them. Well do that instead of trying to make us Crystal Glass United. We're not, we're Whackem Rovers." I also might be tempted to wonder why a few players who were regarded as decent when he arrived are either pretty crappy or no longer with us..


If I knew such a team and situation, of course.

[BWFC_Insane]

This whole modern day management thing has become a joke. A new guy takes on the role of club manager, (including a hefty salary) moves into his new office at Whackem Rovers and immediately wants to change it into the last club he was at. He wants his own training staff, medical advisors and some players based on the fact he knows them from previous lives. He's usually (not always) off the dole because good managers aren't floating around like butterflies and instead of improving the players at what they already do and get paid for he hints at new plans then starts clearing out the wood shed, primarily on his own say-so. Next step, after a couple of seasons of mediocrity is excuses about "bedding in" and "getting settled" etc, etc, and a total ignoring of the fact that the fans can actually see what is (or isn't) happening on the pitch, which isn't much positive.

This is of course fictional and I don't know such a team or manager, but if I did and I were an owner I might just be tempted to say: "You took the job on with this club, players and staff. You did that because you think you can manage them. Well do that instead of trying to make us Crystal Glass United. We're not, we're Whackem Rovers." I also might be tempted to wonder why a few players who were regarded as decent when he arrived are either pretty crappy or no longer with us..


If I knew such a team and situation, of course.

Such as who?

[HMX]

Dreadful stuff.

We went there for a 0-0 and left with a hammering. Not right.

That's all I've got for now.

[TANGODANCER]

This whole modern day management thing has become a joke. A new guy takes on the role of club manager, (including a hefty salary) moves into his new office at Whackem Rovers and immediately wants to change it into the last club he was at. He wants his own training staff, medical advisors and some players based on the fact he knows them from previous lives. He's usually (not always) off the dole because good managers aren't floating around like butterflies and instead of improving the players at what they already do and get paid for he hints at new plans then starts clearing out the wood shed, primarily on his own say-so. Next step, after a couple of seasons of mediocrity is excuses about "bedding in" and "getting settled" etc, etc, and a total ignoring of the fact that the fans can actually see what is (or isn't) happening on the pitch, which isn't much positive.

This is of course fictional and I don't know such a team or manager, but if I did and I were an owner I might just be tempted to say: "You took the job on with this club, players and staff. You did that because you think you can manage them. Well do that instead of trying to make us Crystal Glass United. We're not, we're Whackem Rovers." I also might be tempted to wonder why a few players who were regarded as decent when he arrived are either pretty crappy or no longer with us..


If I knew such a team and situation, of course.

Such as who?

Well, I don't know because it's a fairy story. If it were real, I might have some dates mixed up but it's just that names from the year said manager arrived, suddenly don't seem quite so bad now compared to what we have, names like Steinsson, Alonso, Tuncay, Petrov, Klasnic (I do believe Super Kev and Jussi were still in there then, and poor Fabrice?) Chris Eagles...etc. But like I said, it's make believe...

[BWFC_Insane]

This whole modern day management thing has become a joke. A new guy takes on the role of club manager, (including a hefty salary) moves into his new office at Whackem Rovers and immediately wants to change it into the last club he was at. He wants his own training staff, medical advisors and some players based on the fact he knows them from previous lives. He's usually (not always) off the dole because good managers aren't floating around like butterflies and instead of improving the players at what they already do and get paid for he hints at new plans then starts clearing out the wood shed, primarily on his own say-so. Next step, after a couple of seasons of mediocrity is excuses about "bedding in" and "getting settled" etc, etc, and a total ignoring of the fact that the fans can actually see what is (or isn't) happening on the pitch, which isn't much positive.

This is of course fictional and I don't know such a team or manager, but if I did and I were an owner I might just be tempted to say: "You took the job on with this club, players and staff. You did that because you think you can manage them. Well do that instead of trying to make us Crystal Glass United. We're not, we're Whackem Rovers." I also might be tempted to wonder why a few players who were regarded as decent when he arrived are either pretty crappy or no longer with us..


If I knew such a team and situation, of course.

Such as who?

Well, I don't know because it's a fairy story. If it were real, I might have some dates mixed up but it's just that names from the year said manager arrived, suddenly don't seem quite so bad now compared to what we have, names like Steinsson, Alonso, Tuncay, Petrov, Klasnic (I do believe Super Kev and Jussi were still in there then, and poor Fabrice?) Chris Eagles...etc. But like I said, it's make believe...

The ones in bold had already left before our current manager. Alonso was offered a new deal but chose to go to Italy.

Kevin Davies scored 3 in 37 in the league below. So clearly the time was right for him to move on.

Eagles has been available all summer on a free and is still unemployed.

And of course players signed for several millions of pounds on large contracts seem better than players bought for far less. I should hope so. But those players who cost a considerable amount more also relegated us and left us in this position.

One might trace a lot back to comments made by Allardyce in his final season about how Bolton were going to struggle to compete because the market he'd exploited to sign the Campo's and Okocha's of this world had dried up. And money needed to be spent to carry on even just staying in the premiership. His view at the time. And he's been proven right. The trouble is that once you start spending a few million the quality to value proposition becomes much harder to manage. Allardyce could write off the mistakes, the Jardels, the Moreno's etc. He wasn't spending much money in the way of fees. But I've always though 2/3/4/5M players is the worst market to shop in because there is little value but you're not getting top end players. And the expectations are higher. Plus rarely are you prepared to spend money on real risks, but they are the very players likely to become gems, but they are risky. See the whole premiership now and look at clubs like West Ham, Sunderland etc spending way more than we ever did, simply to try and stay up. Little further than that. And the players they are signing the Carrol's of this world are far from top draw. Probably far from the quality Allardyce once got for free.

[irie Cee Bee]

From what I saw of the match clips, the other Championship managers would be licking their lips to play us. Our defense dont seem to have a clue how to defend the direct long ball from the back played to runners behind our defense. Sort it out DF. We may have to get the no-nonsence Wheater in over the "defenders" who can play a pass.

Also, it seems also that our midfield will not bomb foward if they are not sure whether our point man will keep hold of the football, less they get caught out of position when he miscontrols or loses it....underlining the importance of a player similar to Juke in this system we play. So Medo and Spearing will stay put, safety first.

Just some of my thoughts.

[Prufrock]

The vast majority of those names were the bastard problem! The ones we've got now aren't particularly better, but the ones we could have had then fecking are.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Excuse me, I'll have nothing said against Ivan. Probably the finest goal scorer (goals per kidney) you'd find on the planet!

[TANGODANCER]

Well, I don't know because it's a fairy story. If it were real, I might have some dates mixed up but it's just that names from the year said manager arrived, suddenly don't seem quite so bad now compared to what we have, names like Steinsson, Alonso, Tuncay, Petrov, Klasnic (I do believe Super Kev and Jussi were still in there then, and poor Fabrice?) Chris Eagles...etc. But like I said, it's make believe...

The ones in bold had already left before our current manager. Alonso was offered a new deal but chose to go to Italy. Kevin Davies scored 3 in 37 in the league below. So clearly the time was right for him to move on. Eagles has been available all summer on a free and is still unemployed.
And of course players signed for several millions of pounds on large contracts seem better than players bought for far less. I should hope so. But those players who cost a considerable amount more also relegated us and left us in this position.

I think you're missing the point a bit and mistaking the manager ( who effectively works there) for the club handling. They'd already had the three musketeers and gone progressively downhill. You reckon the players I mentioned aren't better than what we have now?

[BWFC_Insane]

I think you're missing the point a bit and mistaking the manager ( who effectively works there) for the club handling. They'd already had the three musketeers and gone progressively downhill. You reckon the players I mentioned aren't better than what we have now?

Better when? Is Kevin Davies going to score more goals in this league than Beckford? No. He scored less goals a league below.

Is Kevin Davies circa 2005 better? Yes. But we are dealing with the present.

Klasnic was a good goal scorer for a while here. His last season he was completely ineffective. Would he be worth having here now? No. Because he's past it.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

If it is that we had better players as a premiership side paying vastly inflated wages compared to now then yes absolutely. But isn't that obvious? And those very players hardly covered themselves in glory did they when earning considerably more than the current group?

If it is that we should have kept those players on big wages, the ones who relegated us and left us in 18th irrespective of age etc then no that is just ridiculous. We'd be no better off and a hell of a lot poorer financially. Plus we'd have an average age of about 34......

[thebish]

I think you're missing the point a bit and mistaking the manager ( who effectively works there) for the club handling. They'd already had the three musketeers and gone progressively downhill. You reckon the players I mentioned aren't better than what we have now?

Better when? Is Kevin Davies going to score more goals in this league than Beckford? No. He scored less goals a league below.

Is Kevin Davies circa 2005 better? Yes. But we are dealing with the present.

Klasnic was a good goal scorer for a while here. His last season he was completely ineffective. Would he be worth having here now? No. Because he's past it.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

to be fair... neither does tango...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I think you're missing the point a bit and mistaking the manager ( who effectively works there) for the club handling. They'd already had the three musketeers and gone progressively downhill. You reckon the players I mentioned aren't better than what we have now?

Better when? Is Kevin Davies going to score more goals in this league than Beckford? No. He scored less goals a league below.

Is Kevin Davies circa 2005 better? Yes. But we are dealing with the present.

Klasnic was a good goal scorer for a while here. His last season he was completely ineffective. Would he be worth having here now? No. Because he's past it.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

to be fair... neither does tango...

Oh yes he does, he's saying the players we had then were better than the players we have now. Now if the players we had then were crap, well it obviously follows that the players we have now are crapper... S'not rocket science.

[TANGODANCER]

I think you're missing the point a bit and mistaking the manager ( who effectively works there) for the club handling. They'd already had the three musketeers and gone progressively downhill. You reckon the players I mentioned aren't better than what we have now?

Better when? Is Kevin Davies going to score more goals in this league than Beckford? No. He scored less goals a league below.

Is Kevin Davies circa 2005 better? Yes. But we are dealing with the present.

Klasnic was a good goal scorer for a while here. His last season he was completely ineffective. Would he be worth having here now? No. Because he's past it.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

How about reading my post again? It's about the way the club have handled our last four managers. It's about excuses, reasons not to be cheerful 1,2 and 3 ( Megson, Lee and Coyle) and about why they don't put their foot down and just get a manager who manages....is all. It's about comparisons now and back aways, not bring back Kevin Davies and Klasnic. It might just be about being a bit fed us starting the season with a 3-0 loss.....if that's okay. Klasnic played against Premiership competition, we're playing Championship now, and not making much of a job of it so far.

[jaffka]

Lost leopard is a master of the art of summary.

[TANGODANCER]

I think you're missing the point a bit and mistaking the manager ( who effectively works there) for the club handling. They'd already had the three musketeers and gone progressively downhill. You reckon the players I mentioned aren't better than what we have now?

Better when? Is Kevin Davies going to score more goals in this league than Beckford? No. He scored less goals a league below.

Is Kevin Davies circa 2005 better? Yes. But we are dealing with the present.

Klasnic was a good goal scorer for a while here. His last season he was completely ineffective. Would he be worth having here now? No. Because he's past it.

I don't know what you're trying to say.

to be fair... neither does tango...

Care to explain that?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Lost leopard is a master of the art of summary.

Why thank you,

[jaffka]

Lost leopard is a master of the art of summary.

Why thank you,

but now you can go and f**k yourself for taking the p**s on another thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Lost leopard is a master of the art of summary.

Why thank you,

but now you can go and f**k yourself for taking the p**s on another thread

Did I?
I don't even remember doing that...