Next Up - Freeman's Replacement

[bobo the clown]

BN reporting that sources close to Mackay have said he'd be interested...Mcginlay, loyal to a fault, thinks it's "made" for JP or Browny.

Only reposting this so that those who are touting MacKay have a fuller picture. This doesn't strike me as a slip-of-texting-thumb or heat of the moment bigotry. All these are connected to his role as manager of Cardiff City (i.e. in some way work-related). You might be charitable and say number 4 is just blokey banter, and number 5 is only borderline homophobia. Even allowing that (and allowing that Vincent Tan might well be a megalomaniac arsehole), the other four comments make him IMNSHO unsuitable to be manager of our football club.

"On the arrival of South Korean international Kim Bo-Kyung:
'Fkn chinkys. Fk it. There's enough dogs in Cardiff for us all to go around.'

On Phil Smith, football agent:
'Go on, fat Phil. Nothing like a Jew that sees money slipping through his fingers'

On a list of transfer targets:
'Not many white faces amongst that lot but worth considering.'

On a player's female agent:
'I hope she's looking after your needs. I bet you'd love a bounce on her falsies.'

On an official at another club:
'He's a snake, a gay snake. Not to be trusted'

...and sent to members of Cardiff's staff
A picture entitled Black Monopoly - where every square was a "Go to Jail" square"

So ...marginal stuff then

[Worthy4England]

I would argue that people have vastly different senses of humour. What to some is blatant bigotry/sexism/racism, to others is "banter" and sense of humour. Whilst Youri believes the former, I'd be surprised, given who Mackay signed and played, if he wouldn't argue the latter.

As neither of us actually know Mackay, it's rather difficult to tell.

[bobo the clown]

That is all humour, not great taste in humour, but the quantity adds up a bit. Maybe his saving grace is that it was pretty broad ... no-one seems immune from his remarks. As Worthy says the actions may not have followed those words. My concern would be more that we really don't need the controversy right now.

[EverSoYouri]

I would argue that people have vastly different senses of humour. What to some is blatant bigotry/sexism/racism, to others is "banter" and sense of humour. Whilst Youri believes the former, I'd be surprised, given who Mackay signed and played, if he wouldn't argue the latter.

As neither of us actually know Mackay, it's rather difficult to tell.

The links between what a person finds amusing and how they see the world, Worthy, are in my experience, fairly strong. However, whilst we might argue this point at great length, let me frame my position in another way:

I can't see myself sitting at the Macron with my mixed-race nephews saying 'don't worry, lads, it's just the manager's little joke.'

[Worthy4England]

I would argue that people have vastly different senses of humour. What to some is blatant bigotry/sexism/racism, to others is "banter" and sense of humour. Whilst Youri believes the former, I'd be surprised, given who Mackay signed and played, if he wouldn't argue the latter.

As neither of us actually know Mackay, it's rather difficult to tell.

The links between what a person finds amusing and how they see the world, Worthy, are in my experience, fairly strong. However, whilst we might argue this point at great length, let me frame my position in another way:

I can't see myself sitting at the Macron with my mixed-race nephews saying 'don't worry, lads, it's just the manager's little joke.'

Understood. Entirely your prerogative.

[EverSoYouri]

On a happier note, a candidate who doesn't currently appear on any of the bookies' lists (possibly cos they can't spell his name) is being mentioned by Goal as in the frame. A man with managerial experience and a strong BWFC connection -

Mixu Paatelainen!

Currently managing the Finnish national side, Moose was previously in charge at Cowdenbeath (aka the Blue Brazil) and Hibernian.

Having seen both those sides under his leadership, I can promise you they both liked to play it on the ground and keep possession. Easy on the eye.

Whether either of those posts, or indeed his current one, would make him the right man for our job....I'll leave that with you.

[Jez]

The club showed a lot of integrity when it listened to the fans on the issue of QuickQuid sponsorship, would be a massive shame to throw that away by employing a man who clearly holds a very bigoted world-view.

[thebish]

I'd hate Phil Brown in charge. Yeah, he played for us and was assistant for a while but so what? He's an egotistical terrible manager, and very divisive. People say "he knows the club"...what the hell is that supposed to mean? This isn't the 50s when people had jobs for life, he doesn't know the players, the coaches, the scouts, the dieticians, the physios or anyone else, bar a kit man and a woman whose served pies for a few decades. It's not a valid argument at all.

I might not use such strong language, I'm not as appalled by Browny as all that - but, basically - agreed!

[Prufrock]

Yup!

[thebish]

That is all humour, not great taste in humour, but the quantity adds up a bit. Maybe his saving grace is that it was pretty broad ... no-one seems immune from his remarks. As Worthy says the actions may not have followed those words. My concern would be more that we really don't need the controversy right now.

I'm struggling to see how the first two texts in that list are "humour" - even bad-taste humour. but then - maybe I just live in a sheltered world!

[TKIZ!]

I would argue that people have vastly different senses of humour. What to some is blatant bigotry/sexism/racism, to others is "banter" and sense of humour. Whilst Youri believes the former, I'd be surprised, given who Mackay signed and played, if he wouldn't argue the latter.

As neither of us actually know Mackay, it's rather difficult to tell.

Ahh, the 'Ron Atkinson defence'

If and this is a big if Worthy, you had read those texts assigned to Mackay without knowing that Mackay had sent them I wonder how that opinion may change?

That's not meant to cause an argument just provoke debate.

[Worthy4England]

That is all humour, not great taste in humour, but the quantity adds up a bit. Maybe his saving grace is that it was pretty broad ... no-one seems immune from his remarks. As Worthy says the actions may not have followed those words. My concern would be more that we really don't need the controversy right now.

I'm struggling to see how the first two texts in that list are "humour" - even bad-taste humour. but then - maybe I just live in a sheltered world!

And therein lies the nub.

I can't believe, however sheltered, you've not come across the stereotypes referred to, of Chinese people eating dogs (I thought it was supposed to be Koreans and the player in question was Korean I think) or that the notion of Jew's being grasping is something new in the world...that someone might in a txt to a mate and believe it's humour isn't a far leap.

The fact you don't find it to be humour is entirely your own pick of course.

I struggle to see how anyone can laugh at David Mitchell - but I can see that some people might.

[Worthy4England]

I would argue that people have vastly different senses of humour. What to some is blatant bigotry/sexism/racism, to others is "banter" and sense of humour. Whilst Youri believes the former, I'd be surprised, given who Mackay signed and played, if he wouldn't argue the latter.

As neither of us actually know Mackay, it's rather difficult to tell.

Ahh, the 'Ron Atkinson defence'

If and this is a big if Worthy, you had read those texts assigned to Mackay without knowing that Mackay had sent them I wonder how that opinion may change?

That's not meant to cause an argument just provoke debate.

I have no notion as to whether MacKay is sexist, racist, homophobic or owt else, never having met him. I generally wouldn't form an opinion unless I'd met someone. Humour is so personal and I don't believe that it's necessarily a good indication of anything to be honest. Nothing to do with MacKay or anyone else.

I saw Bernard Manning when I was a kid (late teens), I laughed a lot. Do I think he was a racist or a bigot - no idea - never met the bloke. Do I think I'm a racist and bigot because I laughed - no, although I'm sure the thought police will make out otherwise.

Chubby Brown in the early 80's tells lots of jokes of a sexist nature - was the crowd half full of women, laughing? Yes indeed.

The PC crowd would love to tell us just what we can and can't laugh at and should we dare to, then we're racist, sexist, bigoted, cavemen - or whatever. What a load of bollocks.

[Worthy4England]

Anyhow - he's drifting in the markets at the minute - Browny's coming in, in most of them...

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

Mixu would be a risk but I would like to see him given a shot

[thebish]

That is all humour, not great taste in humour, but the quantity adds up a bit. Maybe his saving grace is that it was pretty broad ... no-one seems immune from his remarks. As Worthy says the actions may not have followed those words. My concern would be more that we really don't need the controversy right now.

I'm struggling to see how the first two texts in that list are "humour" - even bad-taste humour. but then - maybe I just live in a sheltered world!

And therein lies the nub.

I can't believe, however sheltered, you've not come across the stereotypes referred to, of Chinese people eating dogs (I thought it was supposed to be Koreans and the player in question was Korean I think) or that the notion of Jew's being grasping is something new in the world...that someone might in a txt to a mate and believe it's humour isn't a far leap.

The fact you don't find it to be humour is entirely your own pick of course.

I struggle to see how anyone can laugh at David Mitchell - but I can see that some people might.

I'm not questionning the idea that there are different kinds of humour - but, rather, how on earth it is possible to assume that humour is what we are even talking about here - which is the assumption you appear to have made - how on earth do we know that these texts were intended as "humour"? That seems like the most generous assumption you could make - which might be the right thing to do when you don't know a man - but (to me) it's far from obvious that it is right to assume that it was intended to be "humour". The texts are not framed as manning-esque jokes...

as for Mitchell - he's a comedian - and most of what people hear him say is in that context - so it is easy to conclude that it is intended to be humour - even though you might not find it funny. this is not the case with macKay...

[Worthy4England]

In the interests of the thread, it might be better to have this discussion in general banter.

The point I'm making is exactly the one you are. We neither know whether they were intended as humour or not.

I am of course a most generous person

[TKIZ!]

I would argue that people have vastly different senses of humour. What to some is blatant bigotry/sexism/racism, to others is "banter" and sense of humour. Whilst Youri believes the former, I'd be surprised, given who Mackay signed and played, if he wouldn't argue the latter.

As neither of us actually know Mackay, it's rather difficult to tell.

Ahh, the 'Ron Atkinson defence'

If and this is a big if Worthy, you had read those texts assigned to Mackay without knowing that Mackay had sent them I wonder how that opinion may change?

That's not meant to cause an argument just provoke debate.

I have no notion as to whether MacKay is sexist, racist, homophobic or owt else, never having met him. I generally wouldn't form an opinion unless I'd met someone. Humour is so personal and I don't believe that it's necessarily a good indication of anything to be honest. Nothing to do with MacKay or anyone else.

I saw Bernard Manning when I was a kid (late teens), I laughed a lot. Do I think he was a racist or a bigot - no idea - never met the bloke. Do I think I'm a racist and bigot because I laughed - no, although I'm sure the thought police will make out otherwise.

Chubby Brown in the early 80's tells lots of jokes of a sexist nature - was the crowd half full of women, laughing? Yes indeed.

The PC crowd would love to tell us just what we can and can't laugh at and should we dare to, then we're racist, sexist, bigoted, cavemen - or whatever. What a load of bollocks.

We'll agree to disagree on this then and move on. My one concern is that I'd feel like a bit of a liberal lefty hypocrite supporting a BWFC/Mackay managed team. I still would be it wouldn't 'sit' well

[Armchair Wanderer]

It's the first time I've seen the content of those texts, I think. If we're looking for unity in 2014 I think it's probably best not to go with someone with that baggage.

Very impressed with Andy Hughes' post-match. I guess he's technically a coaching staff that Dougie brought in but it'd be a shame if he was one of the coaches to be culled based on that one interview.

[thebish]

Mixu would be a risk but I would like to see him given a shot

I'm not at all sure that going back to a former club man is what we need now... I know Mixu was a long time ago - but on the same basis - I don't think now is the time for Browny or McGinlay or Campo or SKD (what a feck-up that would be!!!)

I think we need someone who has no priors with the club - who can look at it dispassionately and honestly...