Worried!!

[bobo the clown]

The thing with conspiracy theories is that they don't go away. Every denial is seen as guilt, every explanation seen as evidence.

I suspect tin-foil hats are quite the fashion right now.


Wibble

[Worthy4England]

The thing with conspiracy theories is that they don't go away. Every denial is seen as guilt, every explanation seen as evidence.

I suspect tin-foil hats are quite the fashion right now.

I was thinking the same thing. It is just bizarre that folks point to ED's net worth as being £60m. That figure I believe came from the Sunday Times Rich List in 2009. It's sorta strange given that the Strix Group sold for £300m in 2005 as to how anyone managed to calculate a number of £60m, given that pretty much all of ED's interests lie in offshore "nobody knows what's in the box" type businesses and arrangements.

In 2000, Strix sold 40% shares to HSBC for £50m. So I'm guessing given ED was majority owner, he got more than half of that (strange how it coincides with investment into the Club ain't it). Then they flogged it in 2005 for £300m, which by my guess at that point would have been at least a 30% payout to ED. So I'm already at £125m minimum...

Since which of course he's invested in nothing but Bolton Wanderers...other than various business ventures in South Africa (I think) and Brazil (I know)...They probably all bombed wiping out half his capital...None of them will have made any money surely?

[Hoboh]

I'll take that to the bank. Seems like a rock solid business case for my proposed take over bid.

Don't be wet, your small change would more than cover that, why do you need the interference of the bank or is it a tax dodge?

[Peter Thompson]

Unless we get a decent striker in we will be in the bottom 6 all season, and will flirt with relegation - and if Lennon continues with hoof ball to Madine we will also struggle.

We need to replace Madine with the utmost urgency, and Neil Lennon needs to get his players playing with his passion & aggression - apart from the defence looking slightly better than last season, for me there has not been enough progress on the pitch and TBH I'm a little disappointed (apart from his 1st 10 games) under NL - I did expect a bit more than we have seen and would have thought that he would have made more of a difference.

Neil Lennon (who I like & believe in) talks a good game and shows more passion than any of the players, but its about time he put a side out on the pitch that played for him in the way he wants his team to play - and if players don't do what he wants them to do then he needs to get tougher.

[SmokinFrazier]

I think we've been good tactically under Lennon. We defend properly, our midfield has good structure and I think we've done well enough in the final third too, but the obvious downfall in all of those areas is with the players we've got. The only thing that can really be held against Lennon is him going with three at the back, something I'm not too critical of as I've mentioned before, and our set pieces but I think he's done a good job so far. It's just a shame that we don't have a couple of players like Chungy, Le Fondre or Juke in our squad because if we did have, I'm sure we'd be capable of getting promoted. Lack of individual talent is our issue though, not the manager, so I have support and sympathy for him.

[TANGODANCER]

We need to replace Madine with the utmost urgency, and Neil Lennon needs to get his players playing with his passion & aggression -

We've only played four games and the players are already playing with passion and aggression. Who has overwhelmed us so far? We've defended well and created a panful of chances, just not put them away. Our one cup loss was a total fluke. Last night was your typical Bolton Blackburn derby and we were the away side playing against a side of cloggers and a clueless ref. Had we got and converted one of those two penalty errors we'd be halfway up the league right now. Granted, we need to convert some of it into wins, but we're not going to become Barcelona overnight. Twenty four? other teams in this league all seem to have the same ideas and targets. They're just not all as skint as we are. This new Italian fullback, Festina Lente sounds okay....

[Enoch]

I think we've been good tactically under Lennon. We defend properly, our midfield has good structure and I think we've done well enough in the final third too, but the obvious downfall in all of those areas is with the players we've got. The only thing that can really be held against Lennon is him going with three at the back, something I'm not too critical of as I've mentioned before, and our set pieces but I think he's done a good job so far. It's just a shame that we don't have a couple of players like Chungy, Le Fondre or Juke in our squad because if we did have, I'm sure we'd be capable of getting promoted. Lack of individual talent is our issue though, not the manager, so I have support and sympathy for him.

Is it 25 from 28?

Shame we don't have a couple of players like Dawson & Jutkiewicz, I'm sure we'd be capable of getting promoted.

Lack of individual talent is our issue though, not the manager.

[thebish]

meanwhile - LeFondre is banging winners in for Wolves...

[BWFC_Insane]

Before it was totally the manager and if we had anyone with any clue we'd surely be promoted. Now suddenly it isn't.

Fact is that over the past few years the manager has been largely irrelevant in the decline of the football club. Either we've had a load of duffers (including the current one to this point at least) or other factors have been more significant.

I know which I think it is!

[bobo the clown]

^^ & I think you're a depressive shit-stirrer.

Shall we have a vote ?

[ChrisC]

If we had managed to get a proven goalscorer this summer, I honestly think we would have won 3 maybe even 4 of our first 5 games. We are making chances in front of goal but not able to put anything away.

we are crying out for a finisher like ALF.

Apart from the Boro game, we could/should have won the other games.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^ & I think you're a depressive shit-stirrer.

Shall we have a vote ?

Or we could discuss a fact. I know it's inconvenient. But here is one. Since the FA Cup semi final we have finished each successive season in a lower league position than the last.

A trend that not exactly, but broadly and generallyextends to Sam Allardyce leaving.

Our decline is far more than who has been in charge of the team. And that is especially true since relegation where the real problems have begun to show.

[SmokinFrazier]

Before it was totally the manager and if we had anyone with any clue we'd surely be promoted. Now suddenly it isn't.

Fact is that over the past few years the manager has been largely irrelevant in the decline of the football club. Either we've had a load of duffers (including the current one to this point at least) or other factors have been more significant.

I know which I think it is!

It's never totally the manager but the squads that Coyle and Freedman had were better than the current squad is, there's no real doubt about that. A kid in Clough, Madine and Heskey being the choice of strikers isn't a patch on what we've had previously and that's where we're going wrong. Give Lennon those same squads we had in the past and I think he'd take us up but give Coyle or Freedman the squad Lennon has now and I think we'd go down.

Managers don't deserve all the praise or criticism but I don't think Lennon is doing a bad job at all and he's not responsible for the position we're at now. Loss of players for various reasons crippled us last year and now, we have peanuts to build and we've had to get rid of more quality, so he's got a very difficult job but the performances haven't been terrible despite that. Like Chris said, if we had a proper goalscorer up front, things would be different now and that's obviously a fault of the situation we're in because we can't recruit the quality we need.

[BWFC_Insane]

^^You could argue that a better manager would have kept us up, given they might have spent the money Coyle wasted on absolute garbage in Ngog, Sordell and Ream to name but a few.

Beyond that though, the idea that we were previously blessed is laughable. We've never had anyone you'd come close to describing as a regular goalscorer up front, apart from, Le Fondre last season. Which striker that we have lost would have made the difference? Simply there isn't one. As pointed out above we looked a better side when we had Dawson and later Juke in it as opposed to without. But hadn't the funds or inclination to add either player into the mix permanently.

Saying we would be better with a goal scorer is an obvious statement. But just the same as saying we'd be better off without Juke. Over the past 4 seasons we've spent less and less and had to move on high earning players. The destinations and subsequent efforts of those players elsewhere suggests that we had players paid way too much, who were in no way likely to fulfil the demands of that salary here.

In short we've been sliding downwards and spending less and less each year. The two are heavily related and no manager has been able to halt that slide, thus far.

[nelson66]

I like Lennon a lot, seems to be a much better manager than Coyle or Freedman

Should he be blamed for being unable to make a silk purse out of a sows ear ?

[thebish]

I like Lennon a lot, seems to be a much better manager than Coyle or Freedman

Should he be blamed for being unable to make a silk purse out of a sows ear ?

I've rarely been a manager-blamer - it has always taken me a long time to join the bed-sheeters... I can't see me with any Lennon-out bed-sheets any time soon...

but - it's never one thing... and I think Lennon HAS got a responsibility...

he knew the job when he arrived - the kind of manager we needed was PRECISELY someone who could get more out of players than they might look like as individuals on paper - we were NEVER going to be able to buy great players.

(either that - or he'd also have to be a wizard in the transfer market... Madine, Dobbie? Heskey? maybe they'll come good, but I think it is yet to be shown that they were the best way of spending our limited striker-cash.)

That's what I expected him to do - that's what I still hope he will do - so to organise/drill/encourage/bully/motivate the players that he has that we are feking hard to beat - have obvious OODLES of team spirit - heads never drop - players never stop running - and make up fo lack of talent with blood, sweat, tears and everybody knowing his job - and having a plan... This side may lack talent - but it still hasn't got the in-your-face passion and do-or-die that Sam's teams had... they are not closing down players and disallowing them time to settle - they are not leaving the field on their knees... (hyperbole alert!)

When the cash dries up, real managers are made... for me - the jury is still out on whether Lenny is that... I feck hope he can because he's probably the best we could have hoped for...

COYW!!

[Peter Thompson]

We need to replace Madine with the utmost urgency, and Neil Lennon needs to get his players playing with his passion & aggression -

We've only played four games and the players are already playing with passion and aggression. Who has overwhelmed us so far? We've defended well and created a panful of chances, just not put them away. Our one cup loss was a total fluke. Last night was your typical Bolton Blackburn derby and we were the away side playing against a side of cloggerbs and a clueless ref. Had we got and converted one of those two penalty errors we'd be halfway up the league right now. Granted, we need to convert some of it into wins, but we're not going to become Barcelona overnight. Twenty four? other teams in this league all seem to have the same ideas and targets. They're just not all as skint as we are. This new Italian fullback, Festina Lente sounds okay....

TD the defence is playing with passion & aggression, I'm not sure about the others, we still look a bit soft and lack leaders on the pitch - and no one is talking Barcelona !

Its only my opinion and I'm a big Neil Lennon fan and I believe that he will eventually turn things around - but I honestly expected more than we have seen in the last 6 games of last season & the 1st 5 of this - we have played ok in spells, but equally we have been awful in others. I did think that we would have seen much more, I still don't know what Lennon's preferred style of play is (apart from 3 at the back), is it long ball and pick up the scraps, is it quick pass & move through midfield or is it a mix of the two ? I don't even think that Lennon knows !

The fact that we have continually gone long to Madine since the start of the season is disappointing and is why I've started to question NL tactically, because I thought that NL was a better manager than that -I agree that his hands are tied with no cash but our overall attacking options are shocking IMO.

Look what Rowett has done at B/ham in the same time that NL has been here, with very similar resources that we have, that's the impact that I thought NL would have had.

[BWFC_Insane]

I was thinking about this last night. It is fairly widely reported that at our current wage bill (supposedly around ~20M) and running costs we'll make around a £10M loss this coming year. Given the removal of parachute payments I suspect that loss would increase the following year (or costs will be reduced).

So from an investor point of view (someone looking to buy the club with no Bolton affiliation) what are their possible motives for buying us in our current position? Whether it be using the club as a form of advertising, making money directly from it (unlikely) or raising their own profile and having fun with a football club, anyone looking to buy Bolton Wanderers pretty much does so on the basis of being able to take us into the premiership relatively quickly. That is the carrot. The fact that off the pitch the stadium, training ground and academy facilities are in place and top notch is also a sweetener.

But to keep our wage bill, expenditure and everything else as it currently is, will cost at least £10M a year for any investor it seems. When the parachute payments go I can only assume that figure rises.

Clearly our current wage bill and transfer expenditure is very short of that required to mount any kind of coherent push to the premiership. Yes teams have gone up on lower budgets before having stumbled upon a magic striker or just the right blend but the point is any new owner isn't going to come in and bumble around hoping things work (if they do we might as well not bother anyway). So the cost of building a squad to mount a serious promotion challenge will sit on top of the £10M a year plus they'll be paying out. So if you say increased the wage bill by a further £10M to around £30M (according to this that would put us towards the top 6 currently but wages are rising all the timehttp://www.insidermedia.com/insider/national/1 ... tops-500m/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and say spent a modest £5M on fees, you're looking at about £25M a year needed from any investor.

Given that would provide zero guarantees and football inflation probably means it rises each year, over say 3 years that figure could well get close to £100M just to build a squad and team capable of seriously challenging for promotion. And that is after the initial ~30M it would take for them to buy it from ED.

Obviously there is a possibility everything clicks quickly and we just fly straight up, but the odds are you're looking over a 2 or 3 year basis. That is a lot of money just to get back up and give the owner a chance of raising profile or building a brand or whatever it is they'd want out of us.

Bit eye-watering when you think of it like that.

[Hoboh]

I was thinking about this last night. It is fairly widely reported that at our current wage bill (supposedly around ~20M) and running costs we'll make around a £10M loss this coming year. Given the removal of parachute payments I suspect that loss would increase the following year (or costs will be reduced).

So from an investor point of view (someone looking to buy the club with no Bolton affiliation) what are their possible motives for buying us in our current position? Whether it be using the club as a form of advertising, making money directly from it (unlikely) or raising their own profile and having fun with a football club, anyone looking to buy Bolton Wanderers pretty much does so on the basis of being able to take us into the premiership relatively quickly. That is the carrot. The fact that off the pitch the stadium, training ground and academy facilities are in place and top notch is also a sweetener.

But to keep our wage bill, expenditure and everything else as it currently is, will cost at least £10M a year for any investor it seems. When the parachute payments go I can only assume that figure rises.

Clearly our current wage bill and transfer expenditure is very short of that required to mount any kind of coherent push to the premiership. Yes teams have gone up on lower budgets before having stumbled upon a magic striker or just the right blend but the point is any new owner isn't going to come in and bumble around hoping things work (if they do we might as well not bother anyway). So the cost of building a squad to mount a serious promotion challenge will sit on top of the £10M a year plus they'll be paying out. So if you say increased the wage bill by a further £10M to around £30M (according to this that would put us towards the top 6 currently but wages are rising all the timehttp://www.insidermedia.com/insider/national/1 ... tops-500m/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and say spent a modest £5M on fees, you're looking at about £25M a year needed from any investor.

Given that would provide zero guarantees and football inflation probably means it rises each year, over say 3 years that figure could well get close to £100M just to build a squad and team capable of seriously challenging for promotion. And that is after the initial ~30M it would take for them to buy it from ED.

Obviously there is a possibility everything clicks quickly and we just fly straight up, but the odds are you're looking over a 2 or 3 year basis. That is a lot of money just to get back up and give the owner a chance of raising profile or building a brand or whatever it is they'd want out of us.

Bit eye-watering when you think of it like that.

I've still not got past vengeance on that six figured freak Gartside yet!

[Enoch]

I've still not got past vengeance on that six figured freak Gartside yet!

Freudian?