Dougie Freedman - Ten Months On

[BWFC_Insane]

I thought he would have taken Lee off after about 70 minutes to give Hall a run out or possibly stuck Pratley inside and taken one of Spearing and Medo off to get Hall involved.

Classic Coyle...

Seriously, I get the point that with two defensively diligent but offensively limited central midfielders in Spearing and Medo, you need creativity elsewhere. Thing is it should come from the three blokes in front of them. And if it's not doing, they should be replaced. It's one area of the squad where we're far from understaffed.

Some of the Palace feedback when Dougie came did mention this: that sometimes there would be solidity but a lack of invention. I hope he starts to shuffle his deck more often, to promote genuine competition for places.

I wouldn't disagree entirely. Yesterday though to me, Spearing tired, understandably as the game went on. I just thought we could have freshened up a little.

The system on the whole is fine. The 4-2-3-1 I have no issue with. I think it is the way to play. Will take time to get it absolutely right. Some of our fans seem obsessed with 4-4-2 though.

Read a few Charlton forums today to see how they thought Sordell was doing (badly) and they are pillorying Powell for playing 4-4-2. Outdated system in their view as Middlesbrough dominated their midfield with a 5. I'd agree. Dougie explained how he wants to play and I think it's clear enough how we are going about it.

Agree that the likes of Lee and NGog need to play better than they did second half. Whatever system you play those creative players need to perform.

[Worthy4England]

If we're relying on N'gog for creativity we might as well pack up. CYL maybe, but didn't show much yesterday. We had more danger from Spearing, Tierney and Pratley than those two.

[BWFC_Insane]

If we're relying on N'gog for creativity we might as well pack up. CYL maybe, but didn't show much yesterday. We had more danger from Spearing, Tierney and Pratley than those two.

Ngog is one of our few players who actually ran at the opposition. And caused the problems every time.

Played the behind the striker role well I thought but clearly had one great chance to slip Beckford in but didn't.

However, he actually took defenders on.

[Bruce Rioja]

If we're relying on N'gog for creativity we might as well pack up. CYL maybe, but didn't show much yesterday. We had more danger from Spearing, Tierney and Pratley than those two.

Ngog is one of our few players who actually ran at the opposition. And caused the problems every time.

Played the behind the striker role well I thought but clearly had one great chance to slip Beckford in but didn't.

However, he actually took defenders on.

Which has got exactly what to do with creativity? If he did have any then he'd know when and how to release it.

[BWFC_Insane]

If we're relying on N'gog for creativity we might as well pack up. CYL maybe, but didn't show much yesterday. We had more danger from Spearing, Tierney and Pratley than those two.

Ngog is one of our few players who actually ran at the opposition. And caused the problems every time.

Played the behind the striker role well I thought but clearly had one great chance to slip Beckford in but didn't.

However, he actually took defenders on.

Which has got exactly what to do with creativity? If he did have any then he'd know when and how to release it.

I don't think he's quite on the same wavelength with Beckford yet. But that will come.

See run and pass for Odelusi's goal at Shrewsbury.

Depends on your definition of creativity. I definitely think his running at defences is valuable.

[Worthy4England]

If we're relying on N'gog for creativity we might as well pack up. CYL maybe, but didn't show much yesterday. We had more danger from Spearing, Tierney and Pratley than those two.

Ngog is one of our few players who actually ran at the opposition. And caused the problems every time.

Played the behind the striker role well I thought but clearly had one great chance to slip Beckford in but didn't.

However, he actually took defenders on.

Which has got exactly what to do with creativity? If he did have any then he'd know when and how to release it.

Which is exaggerly my point.

We looked way more dangerous from crossfields from Spearing (and a couple of his shots), Tierney and Baptiste on overlap crosses and Pratters, than our two "ahem" creative outlets "ahem".

The more I see of N'gog, the more I think he's stealing a living. Occasionally he does something with real class. But it's too often, too little.

I think it was N'gog had a decent chance on his left peg in the first half. Didn't shoot because he's not left footed. Why not give it a go - he usually can't hit a cows arse with his right either....

[danardif1]

If we're relying on N'gog for creativity we might as well pack up. CYL maybe, but didn't show much yesterday. We had more danger from Spearing, Tierney and Pratley than those two.

Ngog is one of our few players who actually ran at the opposition. And caused the problems every time.

Played the behind the striker role well I thought but clearly had one great chance to slip Beckford in but didn't.

However, he actually took defenders on.

Which has got exactly what to do with creativity? If he did have any then he'd know when and how to release it.

Which is exaggerly my point.

We looked way more dangerous from crossfields from Spearing (and a couple of his shots), Tierney and Baptiste on overlap crosses and Pratters, than our two "ahem" creative outlets "ahem".

The more I see of N'gog, the more I think he's stealing a living. Occasionally he does something with real class. But it's too often, too little.

I think it was N'gog had a decent chance on his left peg in the first half. Didn't shoot because he's not left footed. Why not give it a go - he usually can't hit a cows arse with his right either....

I've thought that from his time at Liverpool as well... would have some fantastic games and moments (particularly in the Uefa Cup/Europa League) but then would go completely missing in games where he's given the kind of quality service that a team of Liverpool's stature can afford him.

I think he's got better since, but not much, and he's certainly not added any consistency to his game. It sounds silly just thinking it, but N'Gog is almost a luxury player. He's someone you'd have on field if you could afford the missed chances, the reticence to have a go at all but the 'easiest' efforts on goal, and the times where he's completely anonymous. If you had a team strong enough to keep feeding him consistently good service (and I mean Champions League level), he'd score 15-20 goals a season.

I think it needs to be a case of rotating Beckford and N'Gog based on the opponent and how the game evolves. They can't both start IMO, but Beckford should get the nod for his impressive record at this level... a record N'Gog hasn't looked like emulating at ANY level. Then we can use someone like Moritz, or Mavies once he's back, to give a better advanced link to the midfield and striker. I think Dougie sees N'Gog's deeper role as a solution to a midfield line that's sometimes disconnected with their striker, but he is a bit naive to think that all you need to do is positionally withdraw the one of your two strikers who is the weaker goal threat. That just creates two disconnected elements... you need a midfielder who is willing make runs, have a shot and be able to spot a pass at least as good as your other midfielders, and though he's currently injured, Mavies is the answer to that. Cravies is also a slightly better temporary solution to that role than N'Gog to me.

[LeverEnd]

OK he's a shit finisher but Ngog last season was the only striker who actually gave strikers a hard time. He held the ball up well, plays others in and runs at defenders. Craig Davies bullies them a bit but I reckon if I were a championship defender I'd rather play against him than Ngog. He's still young as well and I expect he will improve. If he starts to score we'll never keep him.

[Worthy4England]

He's been with us two seasons. He's been shit for both of them. He does run at defenders. Often straight into them. Last season he was being judged against one of the slowest strikers in the Championship. Yes he was faster.

As for plays people in, he's a long way down this list.

http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/D ... 27,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In fact he's a long way down most of the stats lists.

[danardif1]

I think the basic facts on N'Gog speak a lot too. He scored 9 league goals in 63 league appearances for Liverpool, who in his time at the club finished 2nd, 7th and 6th in the Premier League. He presumably had good service from the likes of Steven Gerrard etc. for the bulk of his playing time there.

At Bolton, he has scored 12 league goals in 65 league appearances. 33 of those were in the Premier League where even after 3 seasons of experience and moving to a team that gave him more 1st team action, he only scored 3 goals. That's one every ten games. The other 32 appearances have been in the Championship, where his goal return has improved to 9 in 32, a goal every 3.5 games.

For £4m or whatever he cost us, he has failed to deliver in any way on his transfer fee and experience in the top flight (let's not get silly, he certainly wasn't first choice at Liverpool, but in his 2nd and 3rd seasons he made 24 and 25 appearances overall). He is not a goalscorer by any stretch of the imagination, which is then where Worthy's stats link becomes useful, as it would demonstrate if he is having any other major effect on the team's fortunes, and they suggest not either.

He's spectacularly underwhelmed in all his pursuits at Premier League and Championship level, and he'd be a player I'd be looking to move on for a couple of million £... maybe Coyle would be interested he brought him to Wanderers.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think there are players I'd be pointing the 'what do you offer' gun at ahead of NGog at this stage.

LCY for one. Rarely creates goals, rarely scores them, doesn't seem to help his full back out all that much.

I think we need to forget the price paid for NGog it's done. Does he offer something we would miss? For me yes. Dougie clearly thinks so after waxing lyrical about him at the fans forum and clearly sees him as being that number 10, the link between midfield and the striker. And I think agrees he's never going to be a regular scorer.

I did think first half against Reading most of our play went through NGog. Picking the ball up and running at them. Defenders hate that. He did also bring a good save out of their keeper.

I'd certainly not be ditching him at all right now. It may be that Moritz takes his place in the side eventually and then we can re-assess.

[thebish]

I thought he would have taken Lee off after about 70 minutes to give Hall a run out or possibly stuck Pratley inside and taken one of Spearing and Medo off to get Hall involved.

Classic Coyle...

oooof - harsh!!! talk about kicking someone where it hurts!

[Worthy4England]

I think there are players I'd be pointing the 'what do you offer' gun at ahead of NGog at this stage.

LCY for one. Rarely creates goals, rarely scores them, doesn't seem to help his full back out all that much.

I think we need to forget the price paid for NGog it's done. Does he offer something we would miss? For me yes. Dougie clearly thinks so after waxing lyrical about him at the fans forum and clearly sees him as being that number 10, the link between midfield and the striker. And I think agrees he's never going to be a regular scorer.

I did think first half against Reading most of our play went through NGog. Picking the ball up and running at them. Defenders hate that. He did also bring a good save out of their keeper.

I'd certainly not be ditching him at all right now. It may be that Moritz takes his place in the side eventually and then we can re-assess.

Where does he fit in if Mavies is fit? And/or Moritz beds in? Chungy plays in a completely different position and got as many assists as N'gog last season so if Chungy rarely creates them, N'gog (on the same number) must also rarely create them. Of the two, I'd expect N'gog to score more - he's a forward not a winger.

Incidently, I don't think he was any worse than Beckford on Saturday.

We keep talking about what defenders hate - it's not "players running at them" that they hate at all, it's conceding goals. The "good save" from their keeper - that would be the one where he should have hit it with his left, but moved it across to his right and hit it pretty much straight at the guy? Poor, poor shot, if that's the one you're on about.

You wouldn't play him instead of Spearing, Medo, Pratley at the minute.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think there are players I'd be pointing the 'what do you offer' gun at ahead of NGog at this stage.

LCY for one. Rarely creates goals, rarely scores them, doesn't seem to help his full back out all that much.

I think we need to forget the price paid for NGog it's done. Does he offer something we would miss? For me yes. Dougie clearly thinks so after waxing lyrical about him at the fans forum and clearly sees him as being that number 10, the link between midfield and the striker. And I think agrees he's never going to be a regular scorer.

I did think first half against Reading most of our play went through NGog. Picking the ball up and running at them. Defenders hate that. He did also bring a good save out of their keeper.

I'd certainly not be ditching him at all right now. It may be that Moritz takes his place in the side eventually and then we can re-assess.

Where does he fit in if Mavies is fit? And/or Moritz beds in? Chungy plays in a completely different position and got as many assists as N'gog last season so if Chungy rarely creates them, N'gog (on the same number) must also rarely create them. Of the two, I'd expect N'gog to score more - he's a forward not a winger.

Incidently, I don't think he was any worse than Beckford on Saturday.

We keep talking about what defenders hate - it's not "players running at them" that they hate at all, it's conceding goals. The "good save" from their keeper - that would be the one where he should have hit it with his left, but moved it across to his right and hit it pretty much straight at the guy? Poor, poor shot, if that's the one you're on about.

You wouldn't play him instead of Spearing, Medo, Pratley at the minute.

I mean the save the keeper parried away at the near post.

At the fans forum Dougie talked about NGog a lot. He sees him as the link between midfield and attack. Not as a striker. Not as a goalscorer either, though they are working on his shooting. First half against Reading I thought he was our best player. Picking the ball up in "the hole" and turning and running at them. I really thought he looked a handful. Sure end product could have been better but I think the whole team can have that criticism levelled at them.

When Mark Davies is back Moritz is fit I agree we re-assess whether he offers us enough for what he is paid. I'm sure Dougie will do that. I just think take him out against Reading and who is there to run at the defence? To get us up the field? Pratley offers movement from off the wing. LCY similar. Neither will beat a man. NGog can and I think he will link with Beckford given time.

Also be fair to NGog it's only his second game since being injured at Leicester. And look at his run assist for the Odelusi goal against Shrewsbury. There is enough there for me to think he's worth a decent try in the behind the striker role, whilst Moritz gets fit at least.

[StaffsTrotter]

If we're relying on N'gog for creativity we might as well pack up. CYL maybe, but didn't show much yesterday. We had more danger from Spearing, Tierney and Pratley than those two.

Ngog is one of our few players who actually ran at the opposition. And caused the problems every time.

Played the behind the striker role well I thought but clearly had one great chance to slip Beckford in but didn't.

However, he actually took defenders on.

Which has got exactly what to do with creativity? If he did have any then he'd know when and how to release it.

I don't think he's quite on the same wavelength with Beckford yet. But that will come.

See run and pass for Odelusi's goal at Shrewsbury.

Depends on your definition of creativity. I definitely think his running at defences is valuable.

agree with you there bwfci. creativity is as much about making space for other, either by runs (with or without ball) as it is about spraying the passes, playing the killer ball. At the same time I'd say he helps remedy our poor ball retention.
IMO Ngog is one of few in the team who is creative & doesn't treat the ball as a hot potato. Tell me in that 1st half there wasn't a number of times when he got the ball & something exciting/ creative happened. He does seem to be playing with more confidence - at back end of last season/ start of this. I'm sure DF said something about finding a player who was lost when he arrived and hopefully he'll be a player that DF can get more out of.

[ChrisC]

I hope I am wrong, but I don't think we will see much of Moritz after Davies is back from injury. We only signed him on a 1 year deal on low wages. That makes me think Moritz isn't in DF's long term plans or Moritz only fancied another year in English football.

With the apparent low wages, why not a 2 or 3 year deal?

[LeverEnd]

I wonder Chris if he's one of those skilful fancy players who looks good but flatters to deceive in matches. I think DF sees something in him and didn't get the chance to coax it out last season, but he's hedging his bets contract-wise. We'll see. After his brief appearance on Saturday I'm interested to see more of him though (not in the same way as 89bwfc89 though).

[LeverEnd]

Where does he fit in if Mavies is fit? And/or Moritz beds in? Chungy plays in a completely different position and got as many assists as N'gog last season so if Chungy rarely creates them, N'gog (on the same number) must also rarely create them. Of the two, I'd expect N'gog to score more - he's a forward not a winger.

Incidently, I don't think he was any worse than Beckford on Saturday.

We keep talking about what defenders hate - it's not "players running at them" that they hate at all, it's conceding goals. The "good save" from their keeper - that would be the one where he should have hit it with his left, but moved it across to his right and hit it pretty much straight at the guy? Poor, poor shot, if that's the one you're on about.

You wouldn't play him instead of Spearing, Medo, Pratley at the minute.

He offered much more than Beckford. No comparison.
Your criticisms of him are valid re the stats and the transfer fee but I think you're too harsh. I think we missed him when he was out and he occupies defenders and brings other people into the attack either deliberately or by making defenders leave gaps. There are no stats for this, but I see him do it and enjoy watching him play. Does he wind me up at times? Yes of course.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The thing I'm fearful of, is that Dooglass doesn't seem to read which way a game is going. He doesn't intervene with a killer substitution or rearrangement of bodies on the field. He may well have a strategy, but tactically he just seems to have a plan A for each and every game, with just variations rather than a refresh button when things begin to peter out. I'm not saying the tactics are the same for each and every game, as they do seem to differ, what I'm saying is, once the plan's in place there is no changing it.
If he doesn't start planning tactical changes better, I'm fearful that as the season progresses he'll be an easy read from other manager's perspectives, and they'll start to plan mid game changes that Dougie can't react to.

[a1]

he could always substitute muamba then lose games for those nostalgic types ..

#easymoney