Next gigg: Bury (A) Monday, 24/10/16, 19:45 (Sky Sports 1)

[bristol_Wanderer3]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Is it possible that we make teams look poor by dint of us being well-organised?

Clough seems to me the most prolific sitter-misser. That's twice in six days he's put unhurried shots in just about the only (on-target) place they won't go in. Needs to learn to tuck them home, that lad. But of course I love him dearly.

[Armchair Wanderer]

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

How about comparing Madine to SKD? I'm not sure which season you'd pick though.

[BWFC_Insane]

Is it possible that we make teams look poor by dint of us being well-organised?

Clough seems to me the most prolific sitter-misser. That's twice in six days he's put unhurried shots in just about the only (on-target) place they won't go in. Needs to learn to tuck them home, that lad. But of course I love him dearly.

I agree we make teams look poor, but Bury were awful even taking that into account.

They didn't create one real spell of pressure second half, and barely managed it first half. For a home side that is poor.

[Nicko58]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

They might be playing at a higher level now but that doesn't mean to say that they always were; I think it's sometimes just a case of being lucky enough to catch them as they're on their way up. The likes of Jamie Vardy, Charlie Austin, Rickie Lambert and Gary Hooper are all players who in recent years have met your criteria above, both at this level and lower, before earning big money moves elsewhere so it is possible to find them. Paddy Madden, to use your example, has twice scored at least twenty goals in a season in this league and hasn't yet moved on. If we are to start looking for one of our own, it might not be a bad idea to search for promising non-league youngsters, as that's the level that each of these players, with the exception of Lambert, began their careers at.

[Worthy4England]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

[BWFC_Insane]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

Zach Clough puts a shift in. Doesn't mean he could do the job Madine is doing in terms of leading the line, taking the knocks from centre halves and competing for headers etc....

[Bruce Rioja]

Also, Howard's distribution is the best I've seen from a Bolton keeper!

It is, but given that all of our keepers since Jim McDonagh (who could throw it to the halfway line) and in my lifetime have been cursed by the Toblerone boot, it's not that big an ask

[Worthy4England]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

Zach Clough puts a shift in. Doesn't mean he could do the job Madine is doing in terms of leading the line, taking the knocks from centre halves and competing for headers etc....

Yes - so we're agreed that putting in a shift is a reasonable expectation of a footballer? Not that they all do.

Teams generally put their "big and daft" blokes against the opposition's "big and daft" blokes - so you wouldn't expect Clough to do the same role against their "big and daft" blokes. Clough is 5' 6" - Madine is 6' 3" - so yes, I'd expect Madine to be able to handle a 6' 4" Centre Half better than Clough, because he's 9" fecking taller.

So both put in a shift. Both play in a style that matches their physique. I wouldn't suggest we put Clough up against their centre halves to win a shit load of headers - you'd try to play into his feet if he was the tallest player we had, surely?.

Which bit of the above, prevents a forward from shooting or scoring goals?

[nelson66]

highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ELST__Le5E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


watch the bucket shakers getting a

[BWFC_Insane]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

Zach Clough puts a shift in. Doesn't mean he could do the job Madine is doing in terms of leading the line, taking the knocks from centre halves and competing for headers etc....

Yes - so we're agreed that putting in a shift is a reasonable expectation of a footballer? Not that they all do.

Teams generally put their "big and daft" blokes against the opposition's "big and daft" blokes - so you wouldn't expect Clough to do the same role against their "big and daft" blokes. Clough is 5' 6" - Madine is 6' 3" - so yes, I'd expect Madine to be able to handle a 6' 4" Centre Half better than Clough, because he's 9" fecking taller.

So both put in a shift. Both play in a style that matches their physique. I wouldn't suggest we put Clough up against their centre halves to win a shit load of headers - you'd try to play into his feet if he was the tallest player we had, surely?.

Which bit of the above, prevents a forward from shooting or scoring goals?

All I'm saying is we need a target up front. Our centre halves are brilliant but neither is much more on the ball than a punt up to the striker.

So no point suggesting signing a Le Fondre who wouldn't suit us. He might be able to score but wouldn't fit the system or how we play.

That's my point. We need the physicality first and foremost. And someone who has that ability and goals.

[Bruce Rioja]

Zach Clough puts a shift in. Doesn't mean he could do the job Madine is doing in terms of leading the line, taking the knocks from centre halves and competing for headers etc....

Zach Clough's scored four goals in the last two games. That 4ucking arsehole Madine's done a job for the opposition's defence in the same two games (and other games besides). Lead the line? You're having a tinny there, aren't you? I've never in my life seen a bloke of his stature get brushed off of the ball quite so easilly. Waste of a shirt. Absolutely useless. I imagine that you rated David Reeves.

[BWFC_Insane]

Zach Clough puts a shift in. Doesn't mean he could do the job Madine is doing in terms of leading the line, taking the knocks from centre halves and competing for headers etc....

Zach Clough's scored four goals in the last two games. That 4ucking arsehole Madine's done a job for the opposition's defence in the same two games (and other games besides). Lead the line? You're having a tinny there, aren't you? I've never in my life seen a bloke of his stature get brushed off of the ball quite so easilly. Waste of a shirt. Absolutely useless. I imagine that you rated David Reeves.

All I can say is that I'm not saying Madine is a good player. Just that we need a target up front and he's the best we have. I disagree, that he hasn't done a job, especially last night.

And we'd be a far worse side with Clough up front on his own. IMHO.

[Bruce Rioja]

Zach Clough puts a shift in. Doesn't mean he could do the job Madine is doing in terms of leading the line, taking the knocks from centre halves and competing for headers etc....

Zach Clough's scored four goals in the last two games. That 4ucking arsehole Madine's done a job for the opposition's defence in the same two games (and other games besides). Lead the line? You're having a tinny there, aren't you? I've never in my life seen a bloke of his stature get brushed off of the ball quite so easilly. Waste of a shirt. Absolutely useless. I imagine that you rated David Reeves.

All I can say is that I'm not saying Madine is a good player. Just that we need a target up front and he's the best we have. I disagree, that he hasn't done a job, especially last night.

And we'd be a far worse side with Clough up front on his own. IMHO.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that Clough would be any the worse playing up top in a one than he is playing in a two with Madine, who, for me, contributes absolutely zero and often gets in the way. That said, Clough's attempted finish when one-on-one with a defender last night supports your opinion of him, somewhat.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

Madden also takes penalties and plays in a free scoring side. I actually think comparing Scunthorpe with us at all is misleading. They play a different style of football with three mobile smaller quicker players in forward positions, whereas we are set up to defend first and then see if we can create something, often by making use of a punt upfield that Madine has to try and make something of. I am still struggling to know who would be better for us than Madine who we could realistically expect to play for us? I am not suggesting Madine is anything but a limited physical presence, and I am sure there are better out there, but the fact that no one has yet named anyone suggests there are very few.

[Worthy4England]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

Madden also takes penalties and plays in a free scoring side. I actually think comparing Scunthorpe with us at all is misleading. They play a different style of football with three mobile smaller quicker players in forward positions, whereas we are set up to defend first and then see if we can create something, often by making use of a punt upfield that Madine has to try and make something of. I am still struggling to know who would be better for us than Madine who we could realistically expect to play for us? I am not suggesting Madine is anything but a limited physical presence, and I am sure there are better out there, but the fact that no one has yet named anyone suggests there are very few.

What's the point? Our style wouldn't suit 'em, they'd be misleading, they wouldn't be able to handle punts - yadda, yadda.

The point I'm making is he's a centre forward. Nothing like in the SKD bracket. There were two very good through balls last night - one from Ameobi and one from Taylor, in the sort of area a decent number 9 might be. Madine was nowhere to be found for either of them. Even with physical limited forwards, I still expect them to get in some positions to shoot and y'know then, shoot.

We are set up to defend first - Wheater has had more attempts than Madine. Yes he's a defender and clearly up for corners. Where the hell is this heading maestro when you need him? Clough plays in the same defensive team - sure in a different role - but he managed to run at folks last night and find some space, Spearing has had more shots (I think - would need to check), in the same defensive team - all of 'em with a higher likelihood of being on target than our erstwhile defensive forward.

The balls were there for Madine last night that weren't 50/50, he just wasn't clued in enough to recognise them.

[Athertonian]

It was a good performance where we made Bury look very poor. One worry and it's in front of goal again? two penalties and not a goal from open play which is a worry. Madine for all his effort is not going to score many and Proctor is totally useless and stealing a living. A goal scorer similar to that guy from Scunthorpe could be the difference between promotion and a near miss.

[TonyDomingos]

Good match thread this. Even if I say so myself.

[BWFC_Insane]

Zach Clough puts a shift in. Doesn't mean he could do the job Madine is doing in terms of leading the line, taking the knocks from centre halves and competing for headers etc....

Zach Clough's scored four goals in the last two games. That 4ucking arsehole Madine's done a job for the opposition's defence in the same two games (and other games besides). Lead the line? You're having a tinny there, aren't you? I've never in my life seen a bloke of his stature get brushed off of the ball quite so easilly. Waste of a shirt. Absolutely useless. I imagine that you rated David Reeves.

All I can say is that I'm not saying Madine is a good player. Just that we need a target up front and he's the best we have. I disagree, that he hasn't done a job, especially last night.

And we'd be a far worse side with Clough up front on his own. IMHO.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think that Clough would be any the worse playing up top in a one than he is playing in a two with Madine, who, for me, contributes absolutely zero and often gets in the way. That said, Clough's attempted finish when one-on-one with a defender last night supports your opinion of him, somewhat.

I'm not saying Clough isn't any good. Just that 80 percent of our attacks last night came from a long punt that Madine either won a header from or pressurised the defender into a weak clearance and we won the second ball. Or used his strength to hold it and run it into the channel and we played from there.

Putting Clough up front wouldn't change the service. We'd not suddenly become some adept footballing side. The ball would be thrown up there and come straight back most of the time.

We need a big lad up there given how we are set up.

He is playing a poor mans Kevin Davies role in my view. Without someone doing that I think we'd seriously struggle. In fact we did struggle when Madine was out.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

Great result. We looked a league above Bury, which will hopefully be the case at the end of the season.

With regard to Madine, I agree with BWFCI, in that he is very limited but is doing a decent job for the team, and is as good as we are likely to get for the time being. If there is one on-field position that reflects the position of a club in the football hierarchy, and capacity to pay significant wages, then striker is it. Those strikers capable of putting in a shift AND scoring 15-20 goals per season are playing at a higher level. Name a striker playing in League1 or 2, or for a smaller club in the championship who is a significant improvement, given our clean sheet focused style of play?

Comparing Madine with Josh Morris, who is a wide player, is ridiculous. Compare Madine with Paddy Madden to get a fairer picture, but even then the team styles are different.

I don't disagree they're different positions. It's this "putting in a shift" bit. Does Morris not "put in a shift"? Paddy Madden scored 20 for Scunny, last season. Does "putting in a shift" mean "don't shoot" as a centre forward?

Madden also takes penalties and plays in a free scoring side. I actually think comparing Scunthorpe with us at all is misleading. They play a different style of football with three mobile smaller quicker players in forward positions, whereas we are set up to defend first and then see if we can create something, often by making use of a punt upfield that Madine has to try and make something of. I am still struggling to know who would be better for us than Madine who we could realistically expect to play for us? I am not suggesting Madine is anything but a limited physical presence, and I am sure there are better out there, but the fact that no one has yet named anyone suggests there are very few.

What's the point? Our style wouldn't suit 'em, they'd be misleading, they wouldn't be able to handle punts - yadda, yadda.

The point I'm making is he's a centre forward. Nothing like in the SKD bracket. There were two very good through balls last night - one from Ameobi and one from Taylor, in the sort of area a decent number 9 might be. Madine was nowhere to be found for either of them. Even with physical limited forwards, I still expect them to get in some positions to shoot and y'know then, shoot.

We are set up to defend first - Wheater has had more attempts than Madine. Yes he's a defender and clearly up for corners. Where the hell is this heading maestro when you need him? Clough plays in the same defensive team - sure in a different role - but he managed to run at folks last night and find some space, Spearing has had more shots (I think - would need to check), in the same defensive team - all of 'em with a higher likelihood of being on target than our erstwhile defensive forward.

The balls were there for Madine last night that weren't 50/50, he just wasn't clued in enough to recognise them.

He doesn't have that much vaunted strikers instinct for being in the right place at the right time, for sure. That is what we mean by limited though isn't it? He works hard, makes something of aimless balls up field, others can feed off his hard work, he puts defenders under pressure and is good for perhaps 10 tap ins or close range headers per season at L1 level. On the other hand, loads of good crosses or passes will go unrewarded because he hasn't got the speed of mind or body to get there, or if he does the touch and intelligence to create something for himself or others. I mean to me Proctor looks a lot better in terms of potential, but he consistently misses chances and perhaps down to lack of confidence rather than ability is less effective than Madine. Isn't this what life in L1 is like? Strikers who for whatever reason just don't deliver what they ought to, and if they do, they are immediately destined for a higher level?