Owen Coyle

[BWFC_Insane]

I admire your efforts to absolve the players of all blame...

but I think that's just sticking your head in the sand...

(we have beaten wiggin this season with - near as makes no difference - THOSE same players in that formation - KD and Ngog at the top of a 4-4-2 - and that side had Pratley in FFS!)

you appear to be forgetting - it was WIGAN!!! We have the players in ANY formation to beat wigan at home if the players actually step up to the plate and play as if they give a sh&t!

(and it just sounds unbelievably whiny and ridiculous to claim that they somehow can't give their all cos the manager doesn't inspire their confidence. these are highly paid professional footballers in the top English division - so YES - they did have a chance - whatever the fecking formation - and they failed to even give it a go.)

But on that basis no manager should ever be sacked because it's not their fault it's the players....

Fact is that all season we've struggled with a 4-4-2, we stumble across a system that seems to suit our players, gets the best out of Mark Davies, leaves us more solid, shows Ngog in his best light.

I can't blame the players for struggling anymore than you could blame them for struggling to perform under Sammy Lee's cluelessness for example.

Of course the players should play better, but theyre not being given a chance. Ultimately you have a manager to give players the platform to go and perform on, to maximise their performance and results. If they can't do that then its all a bit pointless.

[thebish]

IMAGINE HOW THE PLAYERS FEEL...... 442 knowing they stand no chance and at least in with a shout 451. Liverpool and Arsenal prime results....Do not understand the thinking of changing an improving system.....Can anyone enlighten the 20.000 fans?

let's not get carried away with ourselves... yes - the formation is one thing... but we did not have NO CHANCE with 4-4-2

we played wiggin 4-4-2 away from home and won 3-1

making them play 4-4-2 isn't the greatest idea - but it's not like he cut their legs off!!

are we REALLY saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE to beat wiggin at home with those players playing 4-4-2?? really?? if so - we are in a fecking sorry state!! Coyle has (rightly) taken stick - but it is not the only factor in play (more's the pity)

Bish I understand what your saying and without doubt the players are also to blame - but we almost lost the game before we started yesterday with Coyle's team selection. Its clear to see that confidence is low and that the players look fragile and uncomfortable with playing 4-4-2, so some of them where probably puzzled by it all in the dressing room - you simply can't have a premiership midfield that has 3 attacking players in a 4 man midfield, we are wide open.

If Coyle had any tactical nouse or managerial ability, then after 20 / 25 mins yesterday when it was clear to most fans that bottom of the league Wigan were being made to look like Barcelona with 70 - 80% possession, they were controlling midfield and we couldn't get hold of the ball and you could see that a goal was coming, he should have changed things and brought on Muamba for the yet again ineffective KD and gone back to 4-5-1 - instead he just let them carry on controlling the game, he never once changed the tactics and shape of the team. We need to bring someone in now who can get the best out the squad we have because Coyle is clearly incapable, I don't know whether he's stupidly brave or just plain stupid but I suspect its the latter.

I am not disputing Coyle's culpability - I am disputing the idea that we had NO CHANCE in that formation, with those players - of beating wigan. we had every chance - can we honestly say the players gave their all (against the odds if you like) to take that game to wigan and ram it up their arses??

[thebish]

I admire your efforts to absolve the players of all blame...

but I think that's just sticking your head in the sand...

(we have beaten wiggin this season with - near as makes no difference - THOSE same players in that formation - KD and Ngog at the top of a 4-4-2 - and that side had Pratley in FFS!)

you appear to be forgetting - it was WIGAN!!! We have the players in ANY formation to beat wigan at home if the players actually step up to the plate and play as if they give a sh&t!

(and it just sounds unbelievably whiny and ridiculous to claim that they somehow can't give their all cos the manager doesn't inspire their confidence. these are highly paid professional footballers in the top English division - so YES - they did have a chance - whatever the fecking formation - and they failed to even give it a go.)

But on that basis no manager should ever be sacked because it's not their fault it's the players....

I am saying it is not either/or - it is BOTH!!! yes - coyle is to blame (as I have already pointed out!!) - but SO ARE THE PLAYERS. can you really not see that??? even Peter can! We had the quality on the pitch (even if hampered by formation) to beat Wigan. do you really not think that??

[Bruce Rioja]

they were controlling midfield

Is the bomb. I hear exactly what thebish is saying, but, without Holden we don't have anyone that can pass a ball from midfield, and, without Holden, we are utterly unsuited to 4-4-2.

[Peter Thompson]

I am saying it is not either/or - it is BOTH!!! yes - coyle is to blame (as I have already pointed out!!) - but SO ARE THE PLAYERS. can you really not see that??? even Peter can! We had the quality on the pitch (even if hampered by formation) to beat Wigan. do you really not think that??

Thanks !

[BWFC_Insane]

I admire your efforts to absolve the players of all blame...

but I think that's just sticking your head in the sand...

(we have beaten wiggin this season with - near as makes no difference - THOSE same players in that formation - KD and Ngog at the top of a 4-4-2 - and that side had Pratley in FFS!)

you appear to be forgetting - it was WIGAN!!! We have the players in ANY formation to beat wigan at home if the players actually step up to the plate and play as if they give a sh&t!

(and it just sounds unbelievably whiny and ridiculous to claim that they somehow can't give their all cos the manager doesn't inspire their confidence. these are highly paid professional footballers in the top English division - so YES - they did have a chance - whatever the fecking formation - and they failed to even give it a go.)

But on that basis no manager should ever be sacked because it's not their fault it's the players....

I am saying it is not either/or - it is BOTH!!! yes - coyle is to blame (as I have already pointed out!!) - but SO ARE THE PLAYERS. can you really not see that??? even Peter can! We had the quality on the pitch (even if hampered by formation) to beat Wigan. do you really not think that??

But you've made the point, the reason we are not up with West Brom, Norwich, Swansea etc is not because we can't put the quality on the pitch, but because that quality hasn't performed often enough.

Ultimately you can only look for one place to blame that on.

Players don't decide to play like shithouses for no reason, yes they take blame, but the ultimate responsibility lies with one man.

[thebish]

they were controlling midfield

Is the bomb. I hear exactly what thebish is saying, but, without Holden we don't have anyone that can pass a ball from midfield, and, without Holden, we are utterly unsuited to 4-4-2.

we are clearly capable of beating wigan with 4-4-2, though...

we already beat them 3-1 this season with the following midfield (no Holden)

Reo-Coker, Pratley, Petrov, Eagles,

and Ngog & KD up front

we also had Robbo at left back FFS!!!! (and jussi in goal)

[BWFC_Insane]

they were controlling midfield

Is the bomb. I hear exactly what thebish is saying, but, without Holden we don't have anyone that can pass a ball from midfield, and, without Holden, we are utterly unsuited to 4-4-2.

we are clearly capable of beating wigan with 4-4-2, though...

we already beat them 3-1 this season with the following midfield (no Holden)

Reo-Coker, Pratley, Petrov, Eagles,

and Ngog & KD up front

we also had Robbo at left back FFS!!!! (and jussi in goal)

Different time though, we won at Wembley once with McGinlay, Coyle, Mixu, Defreitas all across the front four.

Doesn't mean that win would ever have happened again.

[Bruce Rioja]

they were controlling midfield

Is the bomb. I hear exactly what thebish is saying, but, without Holden we don't have anyone that can pass a ball from midfield, and, without Holden, we are utterly unsuited to 4-4-2.

we are clearly capable of beating wigan with 4-4-2, though...

we already beat them 3-1 this season with the following midfield (no Holden)

Reo-Coker, Pratley, Petrov, Eagles,

and Ngog & KD up front

we also had Robbo at left back FFS!!!! (and jussi in goal)

And as I say - I take on board what you say. However, you need to have a look at the schoolboy errors that the Wigan defence made in that game. That we played 4-4-2 is pretty much an irrelevance, or should be. Coyle sees it the same way as you by the looks of it though, Chief.

[Peter Thompson]

they were controlling midfield

Is the bomb. I hear exactly what thebish is saying, but, without Holden we don't have anyone that can pass a ball from midfield, and, without Holden, we are utterly unsuited to 4-4-2.

we are clearly capable of beating wigan with 4-4-2, though...

we already beat them 3-1 this season with the following midfield (no Holden)

Reo-Coker, Pratley, Petrov, Eagles,

and Ngog & KD up front

we also had Robbo at left back FFS!!!! (and jussi in goal)

If that's the way that Coyle thinks tactically then its no fecking wonder we are in trouble....

[thebish]

Different time though, we won at Wembley once with McGinlay, Coyle, Mixu, Defreitas all across the front four.

Doesn't mean that win would ever have happened again.

it was October FFS!! hardly the same time scale as harking back to DeFreitas and co..

are you telling me that those players have got THAT much worse in 4mths that it is now IMPOSSIBLE for them to beat wigan at home in the same formation?

[thebish]

And as I say - I take on board what you say. However, you need to have a look at the schoolboy errors that the Wigan defence made in that game. That we played 4-4-2 is pretty much an irrelevance, or should be. Coyle sees it the same way as you by the looks of it though, Chief.

hmmm - we win - it's wigan's poor defending - we lose and it's our shite formation?

I don't think Coyle sees it the same way as me...

I think that a mixture of Coyles failure to change the system when it clearly wasn't working AND the players not giving us everything they've got - was the problem

Coyle thinks it was just the players...

[Tombwfc]

Obviously it's possible that we could've beaten them playing 4-4-2 (especially if they'd defended in the manner they did at the JJB) but it wasn't giving ourselves the best chance, and that was obvious to everyone but one man. The countless shit performances this season playing 4-4-2 far outweigh the fact that during that time we happened to beat Wigan. For similar reasons, I won't be advocating us starting Klasnic and Davies up front at the Britannia on the last day of the season.

[Lord Kangana]

they were controlling midfield

Is the bomb. I hear exactly what thebish is saying, but, without Holden we don't have anyone that can pass a ball from midfield, and, without Holden, we are utterly unsuited to 4-4-2.

He's a massive loss for us, make no mistake. It just seems such a pity that when he finally hit up on the formula that can mitigate his loss, ie 3 in the centre of Moo/That lad from the Black Eyed Peas/Black Country Messi, that gets a few good results he then reverts back to type.

[BWFC_Insane]

they were controlling midfield

Is the bomb. I hear exactly what thebish is saying, but, without Holden we don't have anyone that can pass a ball from midfield, and, without Holden, we are utterly unsuited to 4-4-2.

He's a massive loss for us, make no mistake. It just seems such a pity that when he finally hit up on the formula that can mitigate his loss, ie 3 in the centre of Moo/That lad from the Black Eyed Peas/Black Country Messi, that gets a few good results he then reverts back to type.

I think fooking heartbreaking would be a better description than 'a pity'

[Dr.Karl]

Bish I think you're being results orientated here. Let me explain what I mean by that. Its the concept that bad decisions can reap fruition on occasion. If you consistently make bad decisions you're going to get crap results on average. That doesn't mean you'll get the odd game where you won't win(Wigan away). We could use numerous examples of playing this 4-4-2 where we were shit. I mean how do you explain the turnaround against Liverpool where we were awful at Anfield but changed formation to a 5 man midfield and ran the show from the middle of the park?

In essence Tombwfc has it right the best chance of us getting points on average is by playing the 4-5-1, its that simple.

[thebish]

Bish I think you're being results orientated here. Let me explain what I mean by that. Its the concept that bad decisions can reap fruition on occasion. If you consistently make bad decisions you're going to get crap results on average. That doesn't mean you'll get the odd game where you won't win(Wigan away). We could use numerous examples of playing this 4-4-2 where we were shit. I mean how do you explain the turnaround against Liverpool where we were awful at Anfield but changed formation to a 5 man midfield and ran the show from the middle of the park?

In essence Tombwfc has it right the best chance of us getting points on average is by playing the 4-5-1, its that simple.

my point was a simple narrow one - in response to the idea that we had NO CHANCE of beating wigan with those players in that formation. we may have been hampered - even hamstrung - but I still contend we should have had enough on the pitch - EVEN IN THAT FORMATION to deal with Wigan...

[Dr.Karl]

Bish I think you're being results orientated here. Let me explain what I mean by that. Its the concept that bad decisions can reap fruition on occasion. If you consistently make bad decisions you're going to get crap results on average. That doesn't mean you'll get the odd game where you won't win(Wigan away). We could use numerous examples of playing this 4-4-2 where we were shit. I mean how do you explain the turnaround against Liverpool where we were awful at Anfield but changed formation to a 5 man midfield and ran the show from the middle of the park?

In essence Tombwfc has it right the best chance of us getting points on average is by playing the 4-5-1, its that simple.

my point was a simple narrow one - in response to the idea that we had NO CHANCE of beating wigan with those players in that formation. we may have been hampered - even hamstrung - but I still contend we should have had enough on the pitch - EVEN IN THAT FORMATION to deal with Wigan...

Well thats obvious! Statistically we don't have NO CHANCE whichever formation we play but which gives us the better chance? Its quite a considerable difference imv and most of this board.

[thebish]

Bish I think you're being results orientated here. Let me explain what I mean by that. Its the concept that bad decisions can reap fruition on occasion. If you consistently make bad decisions you're going to get crap results on average. That doesn't mean you'll get the odd game where you won't win(Wigan away). We could use numerous examples of playing this 4-4-2 where we were shit. I mean how do you explain the turnaround against Liverpool where we were awful at Anfield but changed formation to a 5 man midfield and ran the show from the middle of the park?

In essence Tombwfc has it right the best chance of us getting points on average is by playing the 4-5-1, its that simple.

my point was a simple narrow one - in response to the idea that we had NO CHANCE of beating wigan with those players in that formation. we may have been hampered - even hamstrung - but I still contend we should have had enough on the pitch - EVEN IN THAT FORMATION to deal with Wigan...

Well thats obvious! Statistically we don't have NO CHANCE whichever formation we play but which gives us the better chance? Its quite a considerable difference imv and most of this board.

not to BWFCi!!

yes - coyle needed to change it - but ALSO - we would have given ourselves a statistically massively better chance if the players had not massively underperformed.. I refuse to believe it is ALL down to formation - it isn't!

[BWFC_Insane]

Bish I think you're being results orientated here. Let me explain what I mean by that. Its the concept that bad decisions can reap fruition on occasion. If you consistently make bad decisions you're going to get crap results on average. That doesn't mean you'll get the odd game where you won't win(Wigan away). We could use numerous examples of playing this 4-4-2 where we were shit. I mean how do you explain the turnaround against Liverpool where we were awful at Anfield but changed formation to a 5 man midfield and ran the show from the middle of the park?

In essence Tombwfc has it right the best chance of us getting points on average is by playing the 4-5-1, its that simple.

my point was a simple narrow one - in response to the idea that we had NO CHANCE of beating wigan with those players in that formation. we may have been hampered - even hamstrung - but I still contend we should have had enough on the pitch - EVEN IN THAT FORMATION to deal with Wigan...

Well thats obvious! Statistically we don't have NO CHANCE whichever formation we play but which gives us the better chance? Its quite a considerable difference imv and most of this board.

not to BWFCi!!

yes - coyle needed to change it - but ALSO - we would have given ourselves a statistically massively better chance if the players had not massively underperformed.. I refuse to believe it is ALL down to formation - it isn't!

Why did the players not perform them? Who should be getting the performances out of them?