Dougie Freedman - New Manager

[TANGODANCER]

BWFC_Insane said.... Indeed, but we aren't very good. Even if by some miracle we'd managed to find a manager capable of turning this sorry lot into play off contenders what would happen next season?

Sometimes you really baffle me BWFCI. We're not having six knocked past us every game. We lost to a thirty second bit of carelessness that led to a penalty, the only goal of the game against a side way above us on their home turf. "This sorry lot" (us) played some decent football, dominated the game according to most media sources, and did nothing to deserve such criticism. Our defenders, that bit of lunacy apart, seemed well in control, the midfield played well and it was only lack of support up front that stopped us scoring. That's the issue to be addressed and turned round surely. For me we're still well capable of doing that and at least getting well up there if we do no more. Every team in this league is just as capable of winning or losing as we are. Do they think of themselves as a sorry lot?

[wanderers_on_tour]

Surely its an argument, at least with Bolton as we stand, that this perceivement of Dougie playing 'negative football' may purely come down to us not having any meaningful attacking capability? For whatever reason neither Ngog/Davies gel as a front two and when either plays as a lone striker (especially the latter) we over rely on our attacking play to come from the wings. When Eagles is having a off day and Lee is still half a yard short of his best it is always going to spell trouble. At times we have literally nothing down the middle as well with Pratley (who definitely isn't the worst player i've seen in a whites shirt) playing just behind the striker instead of the injured Mavies or even Butterfield.

Unfortunately I have literally no idea how Palace lined up under Dougie but I imagine for all there good defensive work they also had a outlet and a goalscoring threat (it seems lazy to just bring up Zaha as I remember hearing a another lads name who may be even better atm but alas the new years booze has taken its toll!) which is something we lack as it stands. Yesterdays defeat to Leeds was slightly depressing but it wasn't as if we were played off the pitch and were lucky to only lose by a goal (as it could sometimes be said under Coyle) infact I felt through 3/4 of the match we were the better team and had some good build up play, we just lacked a cutting edge.

[SE25_1905]

If the board decided on a project, I think most fans would be right behind them.
But they've not; they've decided on a two pronged agenda...a 2 points per game minimum and an immediate return to the Premier League. I think the first is now mathematically impossible and the second laughingly optimistic.

Wow. Then I am puzzled as to why they picked Dougie to be that man.

Its also worth remembering that such was Dougie's history with us that he knew Wilfried Zaha since he was 13. There was a lot he knew about the club infrastructure and the best kids coming through - that surely helped him to improve our team. He's taken on a big job with you guys and I do feel that he has put his managerial career on the line by doing so as if he fails with you then he'll be yet another promising young manager who has actually achieved very little in real terms and future empoyers won't be so keen to take him on.

All to prove it seems.

[wanderers_on_tour]

If the board decided on a project, I think most fans would be right behind them.
But they've not; they've decided on a two pronged agenda...a 2 points per game minimum and an immediate return to the Premier League. I think the first is now mathematically impossible and the second laughingly optimistic.

Wow. Then I am puzzled as to why they picked Dougie to be that man.

Its also worth remembering that such was Dougie's history with us that he knew Wilfried Zaha since he was 13. There was a lot he knew about the club infrastructure and the best kids coming through - that surely helped him to improve our team. He's taken on a big job with you guys and I do feel that he has put his managerial career on the line by doing so as if he fails with you then he'll be yet another promising young manager who has actually achieved very little in real terms and future empoyers won't be so keen to take him on.

All to prove it seems.

Which is why I think the fans owe it to him to give him at least a full season in charge. Not saying he gets a free pass by any measure, I want to see a solid work ethic from the boys, some fighting spirit and a nod towards the long term future of the club via the youth systems, but I wont be pulling out the bedsheets if we miss out on promotion at first time of asking.

[SE25_1905]

Surely its an argument, at least with Bolton as we stand, that this perceivement of Dougie playing 'negative football' may purely come down to us not having any meaningful attacking capability? For whatever reason neither Ngog/Davies gel as a front two and when either plays as a lone striker (especially the latter) we over rely on our attacking play to come from the wings. When Eagles is having a off day and Lee is still half a yard short of his best it is always going to spell trouble. At times we have literally nothing down the middle as well with Pratley (who definitely isn't the worst player i've seen in a whites shirt) playing just behind the striker instead of the injured Mavies or even Butterfield.

Unfortunately I have literally no idea how Palace lined up under Dougie but I imagine for all there good defensive work they also had a outlet and a goalscoring threat (it seems lazy to just bring up Zaha as I remember hearing a another lads name who may be even better atm but alas the new years booze has taken its toll!) which is something we lack as it stands. Yesterdays defeat to Leeds was slightly depressing but it wasn't as if we were played off the pitch and were lucky to only lose by a goal (as it could sometimes be said under Coyle) infact I felt through 3/4 of the match we were the better team and had some good build up play, we just lacked a cutting edge.

You sound exactly like I did last season. That is not a dig by the way. I was utterly convinced that Dougie was just working with the tools he had here and he had to be defensive for that reason. Since the beginning of September I realised that was a fallacy. We did get Bolasie in which helped us but Murray didn't even get played regularly last year and had 0 service. This season, since our shift towards attacking he's got 22 goals in 23 games!

Dougie did shore up the defence, but he respects 1 point too much and, IMO, dare not attempt for 3. Perhaps he'll adapt and learn over time, but he so far hasn't changed his spots except when told to and he soon left. I feel that played a part in his decision to move to you.

We lined up 4-2-3-1 without fail and ALWAYS played with 2 DM's when at the time we only had 1 DM playing with any sort of quality. A criticism was his lack of a plan 'b' and we would almost without fail go on to lose if we didn't score first. If we did score first then I would worry that we'd not try and get a second.

I don't wish to paint as gloomy a picture as I have because there were certain attributes that I felt DF brought in such as a stringent fitness regime and a team spirit that certainly didn't exist before he came here. For that I am very grateful - but tactically it is nerve-wracking and sometimes infuriating.

[plymouth wanderer]

BWFC_Insane said.... Indeed, but we aren't very good. Even if by some miracle we'd managed to find a manager capable of turning this sorry lot into play off contenders what would happen next season?

Sometimes you really baffle me BWFCI. We're not having six knocked past us every game. We lost to a thirty second bit of carelessness that led to a penalty, the only goal of the game against a side way above us on their home turf. "This sorry lot" (us) played some decent football, dominated the game according to most media sources, and did nothing to deserve such criticism. Our defenders, that bit of lunacy apart, seemed well in control, the midfield played well and it was only lack of support up front that stopped us scoring. That's the issue to be addressed and turned round surely. For me we're still well capable of doing that and at least getting well up there if we do no more. Every team in this league is just as capable of winning or losing as we are. Do they think of themselves as a sorry lot?

Agreed

I'v read some comments from leeds fans and they said they were lucky to get the win

[BWFC_Insane]

BWFC_Insane said.... Indeed, but we aren't very good. Even if by some miracle we'd managed to find a manager capable of turning this sorry lot into play off contenders what would happen next season?

Sometimes you really baffle me BWFCI. We're not having six knocked past us every game. We lost to a thirty second bit of carelessness that led to a penalty, the only goal of the game against a side way above us on their home turf. "This sorry lot" (us) played some decent football, dominated the game according to most media sources, and did nothing to deserve such criticism. Our defenders, that bit of lunacy apart, seemed well in control, the midfield played well and it was only lack of support up front that stopped us scoring. That's the issue to be addressed and turned round surely. For me we're still well capable of doing that and at least getting well up there if we do no more. Every team in this league is just as capable of winning or losing as we are. Do they think of themselves as a sorry lot?

We have the highest wage bill in the league. I'd expect us to be more than able to compete.

I think given their failings over two seasons and not just in one game, referring to them as a 'sorry lot' is the least insulting way they could be described.

I'd also contest, Leeds being 'well above us' wouldn't we have gone above them had we won?

Fact is that given what these players are being paid we should be top of the league. We are not because some of them aren't arsed, some were frankly offered far too much money from the off and others are just stealing a living.

[HMX]

http://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=239263

Unsure if the one.....but they're expecting a massive crowd for our visit..

N'awww.. They're like the new Burnley.

Booooooooo

[TANGODANCER]

BWFC_Insane said.... Indeed, but we aren't very good. Even if by some miracle we'd managed to find a manager capable of turning this sorry lot into play off contenders what would happen next season?

Sometimes you really baffle me BWFCI. We're not having six knocked past us every game. We lost to a thirty second bit of carelessness that led to a penalty, the only goal of the game against a side way above us on their home turf. "This sorry lot" (us) played some decent football, dominated the game according to most media sources, and did nothing to deserve such criticism. Our defenders, that bit of lunacy apart, seemed well in control, the midfield played well and it was only lack of support up front that stopped us scoring. That's the issue to be addressed and turned round surely. For me we're still well capable of doing that and at least getting well up there if we do no more. Every team in this league is just as capable of winning or losing as we are. Do they think of themselves as a sorry lot?

We have the highest wage bill in the league. I'd expect us to be more than able to compete.

I think given their failings over two seasons and not just in one game, referring to them as a 'sorry lot' is the least insulting way they could be described.

I'd also contest, Leeds being 'well above us' wouldn't we have gone above them had we won?

Fact is that given what these players are being paid we should be top of the league. We are not because some of them aren't arsed, some were frankly offered far too much money from the off and others are just stealing a living.

Highest wage bill because we were paying players Premier League wages were we not? Do you really believe we could improve with lesser paid players? We need to use the quality to get back up there and the only way we'll do that is by realising where we are, not "who" we are. We're a Championship team, like it or no and we must play the teams here, not think we should be playing Chelsea and United. We're not that far off the mark and the players aren't responsible for the daft wages that govern football or the oil sheiks who make it that way. Do you really believe they don't want to get back up there and be a Prem side again? I'm sure fans keep saying they're a sorry lot will really help things. Even the Championship is hardly Bolton Sunday League. We've been here before, ( and a dam sight worse) remember?

[Harry Genshaw]

I think whatever was stated by the board at the time, the reality is we are in the Championship for at least 2 seasons. Since the bulk of this squad couldn't stay up in the Prem, I'd be happier if we allow Dougie to build something sustainable so if we do get back there, we can stay there.

Some interesting points raised by SE25 and it gives us a good idea what to expect. He was obviously happy with the 0-0 draw or 1-0 win we should have got at Leeds but knows we dont have the personnel yet to either keep the opposition out or counter attack with effect.

I have every faith Dougie will be good for us but I'm prepared for a bumpy ride until it all comes right.

[Tombwfc]

If the board decided on a project, I think most fans would be right behind them.
But they've not; they've decided on a two pronged agenda...a 2 points per game minimum and an immediate return to the Premier League. I think the first is now mathematically impossible and the second laughingly optimistic.

Would they? All last season Gartside and Coyle banged on about how it didn't really matter that we were hurtling towards relegation, because we had a long term plan. Then when we did get relegated, we almost immediately thought 'feck the long term plan' and sacked the manager.

Really, regardless of what any of them say, the only objective is to get results as quickly as possible. Dougie, Lennie and Curtis Fleming can revamp the entire club from top to bottom if they like, but if we're sat 15th in the Championship in November they'll all be out of a job.

[Relentless09]

I can only judge Dougie on what I can read on the Internet, highlights and the occasional radio stream or televised game. Yes he appears to be very defensive but yesterday and not for the first time, we played with 3 strikers and Eagles as well. That to me says he's not afraid to go for it.

[BWFC_Insane]

BWFC_Insane said.... Indeed, but we aren't very good. Even if by some miracle we'd managed to find a manager capable of turning this sorry lot into play off contenders what would happen next season?

Sometimes you really baffle me BWFCI. We're not having six knocked past us every game. We lost to a thirty second bit of carelessness that led to a penalty, the only goal of the game against a side way above us on their home turf. "This sorry lot" (us) played some decent football, dominated the game according to most media sources, and did nothing to deserve such criticism. Our defenders, that bit of lunacy apart, seemed well in control, the midfield played well and it was only lack of support up front that stopped us scoring. That's the issue to be addressed and turned round surely. For me we're still well capable of doing that and at least getting well up there if we do no more. Every team in this league is just as capable of winning or losing as we are. Do they think of themselves as a sorry lot?

We have the highest wage bill in the league. I'd expect us to be more than able to compete.

I think given their failings over two seasons and not just in one game, referring to them as a 'sorry lot' is the least insulting way they could be described.

I'd also contest, Leeds being 'well above us' wouldn't we have gone above them had we won?

Fact is that given what these players are being paid we should be top of the league. We are not because some of them aren't arsed, some were frankly offered far too much money from the off and others are just stealing a living.

Highest wage bill because we were paying players Premier League wages were we not? Do you really believe we could improve with lesser paid players? We need to use the quality to get back up there and the only way we'll do that is by realising where we are, not "who" we are. We're a Championship team, like it or no and we must play the teams here, not think we should be playing Chelsea and United. We're not that far off the mark and the players aren't responsible for the daft wages that govern football or the oil sheiks who make it that way. Do you really believe they don't want to get back up there and be a Prem side again? I'm sure fans keep saying they're a sorry lot will really help things. Even the Championship is hardly Bolton Sunday League. We've been here before, ( and a dam sight worse) remember?

TD I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make?

Are you saying we haven't been let down by the performances of these players? I certainly think we have. Individually for the amount they get paid and their experience I think you can point the finger at a number who have let us down consistently and of course a number who are just inconsistent.

As for whether it 'matters to them', i suspect most of them don't give a shiny shite. They are getting paid a lot of money and frankly come out saying the right things and have done for 2 years, yet their performances don't seem to improve.

Even our manager is questioning their attitude individually and collectively. I would suggest that's enough evidence to say that he isnt overly impressed with some of them.

And neither am I.

The fact that we have a group who appear on the whole to lack real desire and determination is not their fault, but as individuals several, could, and should want to do better but it's been going on so long that I don't think they will.

Why do you think Dougie has said we need players who 'want to play for Bolton' not ones who see it as 'them doing us a favour'.

The very point I'm making is that we are in the championship and we'd best scrap our way out of it. You cant do that if some players aren't up for it. Which is why we need change and why our manager is talking about bringing the right character of player in.

[BL3]

Are you saying we haven't been let down by the performances of these players? I certainly think we have.

Yes we have been let down by the performances of the players. We've also been let down by the performance of the manager.

[ChrisC]

I can only judge Dougie on what I can read on the Internet, highlights and the occasional radio stream or televised game. Yes he appears to be very defensive but yesterday and not for the first time, we played with 3 strikers and Eagles as well. That to me says he's not afraid to go for it.

Agreed.. more a case of the players being afraid than the manager with some being abit shit sometimes thrown in.

The defence is a problem to an extent but bar Peterborough we have hardly been bulldozed every game.. for me we need a better cutting edge up top.. We miss Mavies aswell, there are no ideas around the box and nobody making cheeky little passes opening up the opposition's back line.

Number one priority for me though is an out and out scorer.. Don't care who it is just get somebody in like DJ Campbell.. he would be a cheap realistic signing and turned Ipswich around this season.. scored 10 in 17.

[boltonboris]

We miss Mavies aswell, there are no ideas around the box and nobody making cheeky little passes opening up the opposition's back line.

You're not allowed to say that! He's no good and we should flog him!

Apparently

[BWFC_Insane]

Are you saying we haven't been let down by the performances of these players? I certainly think we have.

Yes we have been let down by the performances of the players. We've also been let down by the performance of the manager.

If only we'd not given Coyle 2 and a bit seasons to assemble such an expensive weak willed group eh?

[TANGODANCER]

TD I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make?

Are you saying we haven't been let down by the performances of these players? I certainly think we have. Individually for the amount they get paid and their experience I think you can point the finger at a number who have let us down consistently and of course a number who are just inconsistent.

As for whether it 'matters to them', i suspect most of them don't give a shiny shite. They are getting paid a lot of money and frankly come out saying the right things and have done for 2 years, yet their performances don't seem to improve.

Even our manager is questioning their attitude individually and collectively. I would suggest that's enough evidence to say that he isnt overly impressed with some of them.

And neither am I.

The fact that we have a group who appear on the whole to lack real desire and determination is not their fault, but as individuals several, could, and should want to do better but it's been going on so long that I don't think they will.

Why do you think Dougie has said we need players who 'want to play for Bolton' not ones who see it as 'them doing us a favour'.

The very point I'm making is that we are in the championship and we'd best scrap our way out of it. You cant do that if some players aren't up for it. Which is why we need change and why our manager is talking about bringing the right character of player in.

My point's very simple. Last two games, we won one decently and lost one to a penalty after dominating it and basically playing well. Improved football. I'm wondering if you think we should suddenly become Barcelona overnight? We had eleven? seasons in the top flight and have a sizeable (no, massive) debt due to the ups and downs of football. Now we're not in the top flight and can't even hope to afford buying our way back. Give it a chance. That's my point in its entirity.

[boltonboris]

Thing is Tango, despite seeing your point.. These are the 'fine margins' that Coyle always told us about. However, to get onto the right side of those margins, you need desire. You can't coach desire. The players either have it, or they don't. If they don't, then they need to be replaced.

[Tals-biggest-fan]

Dougies system to be seems very simular to Jose Mourinho's Chelsea when they won the league... they grab a goal and then play on the counter, but for the system to work you need a strong defense and a striker who will score goals consistently we have neither a good defense or a striker who scores consistently... we can talk all you want about how hard Kevin Davies works for the team but a top striker he is not, he's the guy who should be leading our line, if we cast our minds back to players like Daniel Sturidge, Nicolas Anelka and I bet you can go back to the days of when Lofty was our striker... the one thing they had that we need is that selfishness, that willing to be the one to step up and score goals, when you talk about Ronaldo and Messi you talk about the goals they score because when it all boils down to it they are selfish.

If Dougie can't find a striker who is willing to be selfish and get goals and sort out a defense that will be consistently strong, it doesn't even have to a top quality defense that never makes mistakes but we just need a consistently defense and then Dougies system will work perfectly....