The Debt.

[wigan white]

I've got to be careful what I say due to who I work for, not 100% about the PAYE but with the VAT, depending on their VAT stagger then being petitioned the month after payment is due doesn't ring true. For a start, BWFC would go into the default surcharge system where an increasing % is added onto each VAT return until debt is cleared and usually only when the maximum 15% is reached is when the debt is usually taken more seriously (obviously taking into account how much the debt is). Debt management would potentially send out a "field force agent " to assess the debt and assets but this is only after a "Time to pay" agreement couldn't be reached or if one was in place and then we defaulted on it. Something just doesn't seem right to me, with how quick this has all happened. I think there's more that we've not been told.

When a business is struggling to survive VAT & PAYE inevitably slip down the paylist - they are not providing services you need to function. This problem started in earnest when the Bank of Eddie Davies stopped lending and that is likely to have been quite a bit longer than just a few months ago. Is BWFC also suffering punative VAT default surcharges? Very possibly.

I understand where you are coming from, but to "owe VAT" means that they've had the income in , and any good business wouldn't include the VAT in takings (as they'd have to pay it to HMRC anyway), if our expenditure was more than our income, then depending on the VAT liability of our expenditure (and income for that matter), then for VAT purposes, surely we'd be in a "repayment" situation on our VAT returns, or at least a small payment??? Thats the bit I don't get, When Rangers did it, its because they royally fecked up their VAT and got hit with a 70%+ penalty that took the VAT upto about £40m when added to the VAT they owed. So unless we're in the same situation then I'm properly confused as to whats going on?

[wigan white]

...but, and this is what's worrying me, ever since the Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac fiasco banks are becoming ever more entrenched and need gold star borrowers before they'll lend owt.
It seems to me we'll need some character with personal wealth. I don't see any of them lining up: Colombian drug cartels, Russian gas field owners, and Blood diamond lords don't tend to have many connections to Bolton.

Wasn't Pablo Escobar born in Horwich?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The full list of clubs that have been wound up through an order (in England and Wales, tier six upwards)
(some team back in the 70s who reemerged as AFC somebody)
Newport County 1989
Chester City 2010
Farsley Celtic 2010
Rushden and Diamonds 2011

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...but, and this is what's worrying me, ever since the Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac fiasco banks are becoming ever more entrenched and need gold star borrowers before they'll lend owt.
It seems to me we'll need some character with personal wealth. I don't see any of them lining up: Colombian drug cartels, Russian gas field owners, and Blood diamond lords don't tend to have many connections to Bolton.

Wasn't Pablo Escobar born in Horwich?

Quick, send him a letter, he might not have got his copy of the Bolton News recently.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

The full list of clubs that have been wound up through an order (in England and Wales, tier six upwards)
(some team back in the 70s who reemerged as AFC somebody)
Newport County 1989
Chester City 2010
Farsley Celtic 2010
Rushden and Diamonds 2011

So, a notable increase since the world got fiscally f*cked in 2008. Mostly by borrowing/lending.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've got to be careful what I say due to who I work for, not 100% about the PAYE but with the VAT, depending on their VAT stagger then being petitioned the month after payment is due doesn't ring true. For a start, BWFC would go into the default surcharge system where an increasing % is added onto each VAT return until debt is cleared and usually only when the maximum 15% is reached is when the debt is usually taken more seriously (obviously taking into account how much the debt is). Debt management would potentially send out a "field force agent " to assess the debt and assets but this is only after a "Time to pay" agreement couldn't be reached or if one was in place and then we defaulted on it. Something just doesn't seem right to me, with how quick this has all happened. I think there's more that we've not been told.

When a business is struggling to survive VAT & PAYE inevitably slip down the paylist - they are not providing services you need to function. This problem started in earnest when the Bank of Eddie Davies stopped lending and that is likely to have been quite a bit longer than just a few months ago. Is BWFC also suffering punative VAT default surcharges? Very possibly.

I understand where you are coming from, but to "owe VAT" means that they've had the income in , and any good business wouldn't include the VAT in takings (as they'd have to pay it to HMRC anyway), if our expenditure was more than our income, then depending on the VAT liability of our expenditure (and income for that matter), then for VAT purposes, surely we'd be in a "repayment" situation on our VAT returns, or at least a small payment??? Thats the bit I don't get, When Rangers did it, its because they royally fecked up their VAT and got hit with a 70%+ penalty that took the VAT upto about £40m when added to the VAT they owed. So unless we're in the same situation then I'm properly confused as to whats going on?

The VAT is secondary to the PAYE tax bill...it's that which is the driver for the HMRC petition. If ordinary staff wages aren't forthcoming on the 22st, I think you'll find the petition date could even get moved forward. HMRC business section heads do not like unforthcoming PAYE tax - the system is designed to make tax collection easy.
As for the VAT, I think it arises from end of last tax year and must include rolled over penalties. T'Times said it was £2 million owed. But they aren't clamouring for that.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The full list of clubs that have been wound up through an order (in England and Wales, tier six upwards)
(some team back in the 70s who reemerged as AFC somebody)
Newport County 1989
Chester City 2010
Farsley Celtic 2010
Rushden and Diamonds 2011

So, a notable increase since the world got fiscally f*cked in 2008. Mostly by borrowing/lending.

Precisely.
My real fear is that we may be the first League club to go down that route. I have sneaking suspicion that financial institutions aren't overly enamoured of the professional football club business model.

[norm the jedi]

The full list of clubs that have been wound up through an order (in England and Wales, tier six upwards)
(some team back in the 70s who reemerged as AFC somebody)
Newport County 1989
Chester City 2010
Farsley Celtic 2010
Rushden and Diamonds 2011

So, a notable increase since the world got fiscally f*cked in 2008. Mostly by borrowing/lending.

Precisely.
My real fear is that we may be the first League club to go down that route. I have sneaking suspicion that financial institutions aren't overly enamoured of the professional football club business model .

There's a business model???

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

There's a business model???

But is there a model business?

[norm the jedi]

There's a business model???

But is there a model business?

I think Murdoch has one and possibly BT although theirs looks a tad more dodgy long term.

I think their combined world view is 'the rest of you can go feck yourselves'

I may be over simplifying.

[wigan white]

There's a business model???

But is there a model business?

I think Murdoch has one and possibly BT although theirs looks a tad more dodgy long term.

I think their combined world view is 'the rest of you can go feck yourselves'

I may be over simplifying.

I think there was an initial business model, but that went out the window years ago, possibly due to mismanagement from the heirarchy (although we'll probably never know) but seemingly we've been living hand to mouth for the last few years, although then this adds to the question, why then did we plan to build new offices etc around the Macron when financially we were struggling, I know the "Speculate to accumulate" argument but with the dire financial situation we are in, it just seems mind boggling that we'd plan to invest much more money 6mths ago when now we cant afford to pay our staff?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

There's a business model???

But is there a model business?

I think Murdoch has one and possibly BT although theirs looks a tad more dodgy long term.

I think their combined world view is 'the rest of you can go feck yourselves'

I may be over simplifying.

I think there was an initial business model, but that went out the window years ago, possibly due to mismanagement from the heirarchy (although we'll probably never know) but seemingly we've been living hand to mouth for the last few years, although then this adds to the question, why then did we plan to build new offices etc around the Macron when financially we were struggling, I know the "Speculate to accumulate" argument but with the dire financial situation we are in, it just seems mind boggling that we'd plan to invest much more money 6mths ago when now we cant afford to pay our staff?

To be honest I was talking about football Prem/League/FA (and UEFA/FIFA), not merely Bolton Wanderers. The sand castle is beginning to dry out. And although we are but a small tower on the outskirts, we are unfortunately the one that's in the way of the tide that's just turned.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Today, Matt Dickinson in the Times, once more states the full tax bill is £2.2 million.
So simple maths means:
£600,000 immediate PAYE tax owed
£1,600,000 owing on VAT and penalties

[Harry Genshaw]

The full list of clubs that have been wound up through an order (in England and Wales, tier six upwards)
(some team back in the 70s who reemerged as AFC somebody)
Newport County 1989
Chester City 2010
Farsley Celtic 2010
Rushden and Diamonds 2011

Maidstone Utd not in there somewhere?

On the subject of mis-management I used to know and get occasional tickets from someone in the accounts office at the club. Trying to be a little vague here so I'm not dropping them in the 5hit but Coyle's time was summed up by them being told to come up with a plan to reduce costs/outgoings etc. Said plan was done, only to be rendered irrelevant the following day when a ridiculous 3 year contract for another of his buys dropped on the table. All signed and agreed by PG of course

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The full list of clubs that have been wound up through an order (in England and Wales, tier six upwards)
(some team back in the 70s who reemerged as AFC somebody)
Newport County 1989
Chester City 2010
Farsley Celtic 2010
Rushden and Diamonds 2011

Maidstone Utd not in there somewhere?

On the subject of mis-management I used to know and get occasional tickets from someone in the accounts office at the club. Trying to be a little vague here so I'm not dropping them in the 5hit but Coyle's time was summed up by them being told to come up with a plan to reduce costs/outgoings etc. Said plan was done, only to be rendered irrelevant the following day when a ridiculous 3 year contract for another of his buys dropped on the table. All signed and agreed by PG of course

No, I don't think they are. They were made bankrupt but refounded. I don't think they faced a winding up order and dissolved. Many many clubs have gone into administration, and a few have faced bankruptcy, but the list I provided was specific to clubs who were dissolved after a winding up order was issued following administration. Another telling statistic is the rate of football clubs going into administration - it is more than tenfold the pre-Fanny/Freddy world.

[thebish]

It'll be reet.

#trustintrev

We either sell of assets and hope a saviour arrives.

Or go into administration.

Either way it 100% isn't just going to be reet now I'm afraid.

I certainly admire the sheer zeal and fervour of your evangelical pessimism!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It'll be reet.

#trustintrev

We either sell of assets and hope a saviour arrives.

Or go into administration.

Either way it 100% isn't just going to be reet now I'm afraid.

I certainly admire the sheer zeal and fervour of your evangelical pessimism!

Well you shouldn't. His particular brand of pessimism was declared schismatic at the First Council of Geneva (2007 presided over by Archbishop Blatter).

[BWFC_Insane]

It'll be reet.

#trustintrev

We either sell of assets and hope a saviour arrives.

Or go into administration.

Either way it 100% isn't just going to be reet now I'm afraid.

I certainly admire the sheer zeal and fervour of your evangelical pessimism!

I suppose I just feel that we aren't coming out of this unscathed.

Nixon has said today that there have been discussions for over a year to try and sell the club and nobody with the required money has turned up, or those who have it are scared off.

Now it is clear that perhaps the circumstances dictate being somewhat less picky about how we proceed but at the same time the notion that in a few weeks we can sort out what hasn't been possible in a year without some sort of major compromise somewhere, seems highly unlikely to me.

Perhaps one of the consortia will secure extra cash from somewhere to complete a deal, but even then it isn't all roses and sunshine.

I worry we might be in the bottom couple of leagues for a period as I don't see a sugar daddy coming forward. Which would be alright, if the club survived of course. And by one definition "reet".

But many people will see that as terrible and anything from reet. Especially I'd suggest the younger fans who haven't necessarily experienced the ups and downs of Bolton Wanderers. And given the focus on top flight football nowadays I suspect if we are going to continue an extended period of rubbishness it may well affect our fan base in the longer term.

[thebish]

I don't doubt that you think what you say you think! I just don't want you to be too stressed that I don't share that pessimism - you really don't need to persuade me otherwise - and even if you did - you wouldn't be doing me a great service!

[StaffsTrotter]

It'll be reet.

#trustintrev

We either sell of assets and hope a saviour arrives.

Or go into administration.

Either way it 100% isn't just going to be reet now I'm afraid.

I certainly admire the sheer zeal and fervour of your evangelical pessimism!

I suppose I just feel that we aren't coming out of this unscathed.

Nixon has said today that there have been discussions for over a year to try and sell the club and nobody with the required money has turned up, or those who have it are scared off.

Now it is clear that perhaps the circumstances dictate being somewhat less picky about how we proceed but at the same time the notion that in a few weeks we can sort out what hasn't been possible in a year without some sort of major compromise somewhere, seems highly unlikely to me.

Perhaps one of the consortia will secure extra cash from somewhere to complete a deal, but even then it isn't all roses and sunshine.

I worry we might be in the bottom couple of leagues for a period as I don't see a sugar daddy coming forward. Which would be alright, if the club survived of course. And by one definition "reet".

But many people will see that as terrible and anything from reet. Especially I'd suggest the younger fans who haven't necessarily experienced the ups and downs of Bolton Wanderers. And given the focus on top flight football nowadays I suspect if we are going to continue an extended period of rubbishness it may well affect our fan base in the longer term.

Nixons revelation isnt really one, but is another indication of understanding where we are and efforts that have been made. The bottom line is we have no idea what has gone on and what circumstances have changed or indeed when, to leave us where we are, wherever that may truly be. If these ever come out, I suspect it might give all the armchair experts and hindsight critics some pause for thought, but probably won't.