Freedman out!

[thebish]

I'm surprised that no-one has picked you up on this line you've been taking over the last couple of weeks, so I guess its down to me.

If any of you fancy coming to me for some urgent brain surgery, feel free, I'll give it my best shot. Because, and lets all be honest with ourselves here, brain surgery is always a gamble so just because somebody else has done it better in the past doesn't indicate they will continue to do so in the future.

Now can we get the discussion back on track?

all of which is perfectly logical if you really think that brain surgery and football management are in any way equivalent in terms of predictability...

you can post another "freedman out" post any time you like - go for it! it will enhance all our lives!

[SmokinFrazier]

or....

let's stick with Freedman and recognise that it is a long slow job to turn the club around from its long and arduous decline. we'd all like it to be quicker - but then there's lots of stuff we'd all like that we aren't gonna get...

It doesn't have to be a "slow job" to turn it around. Freedman is a poor manager and he got us into the play-off spots last year for a brief moment, so I have no doubt that if the right man came in, he'd be able to get us into the play-offs and potentially win them. Unrealistically, if someone like Ferguson took over, we'd win the league with games to spare but realistically, I see no reason why a better manager than Freedman couldn't get us into the play-offs with the squad we have. To write it off as being a slow job is wrong, I think; under Freedman it will be a slow job because he's taking us backwards but under the right manager, we can still do something this year. I think a good appointment would ensure we finish in the top 10 at least, and then there's always the chance of reaching the play-offs.

Freedman's as likely as anyone to rebuild us into summat better if given the time needed and if not harassed and panicked by the threat of being fired every other week hanging over his head...

Why is he "as likely as anyone"? What as he done to warrant such faith? He didn't achieve anything at Palace, he had a good 10 game period with us and that's it. There's no reason to have faith in him. He has an poor overall record as a manager when you compare him to others in the division. Statistically, how many managers are worse than Freedman in this league? Someone like Pulis is far more capable of rebuilding us than Freedman is.

I think I've heard all that before... you are more than entitled to your oft-peddled opinion. If we only ever put faith in people who had already proved themselves - then there would never be any new talent being established. I like the cut of Dougie's jib - and there are enough intangibles in football management for me not to get too excited by so-called proven track records other other managers manging other players at different times and in different places.

Pulis has never rebuilt Bolton in these circumstances at this time - he'd be just as much of a lottery - picking a manager is a lottery.

I know you think it is some kind of stat-led science... but I don't! there!

Nothing is ever guaranteed but there are some managers who have achieved enough that I'd have a large amount of faith in them. I'd rather put my trust in a manager who has achieved things and done a good job in the past, over someone like Freedman who has done a poor job with Bolton and doesn't have any previous success. With some managers, there's reason to have faith in them but with others, it's a complete gamble. Picking a manager is a lottery but I'd rather have Mourinho or Ancelotti than Holloway or Brown.

[thebish]

Nothing is ever guaranteed but there are some managers who have achieved enough that I'd have a large amount of faith in them. I'd rather put my trust in a manager who has achieved things and done a good job in the past, over someone like Freedman who has done a poor job with Bolton and doesn't have any previous success. With some managers, there's reason to have faith in them but with others, it's a complete gamble. Picking a manager is a lottery but I'd rather have Mourinho or Ancelotti than Holloway or Brown.

yeah - I know.

but - the thing is - I'm not you. I am happy to dare to dream that one day we will stumble upon another mr allardyce - who was hardly mr glittering top-flight track record when he arrived...

[Peter Thompson]

Reasons and faith are the interesting things here.

I think there are reasons to believe Freedman can turn the whole club around, despite how shite this season has been so far. You may call that faith beyond what we can see, I reckon there are different ways to see what's going on...

Not to mention we can't afford to sack him anyway and the prospective list just has Tony Mowbray's name on it.

Go on then squire please go ahead and name said reasons...

[LeverEnd]

I thought he came in a sounded like he knew what he was doing, but he hasn't backed that up and it's got to the point where it would be blind faith to expect success, and I don't do blind faith.
I want him to succeed and as long as he's in charge I'll continue to hope I'm wrong and he'll turn it round. It would be negligent at this point if they aren't looking at alternatives.
I'm not at the point where I just want him out and have a caretaker, but that might come soon if things don't improve. I'd prefer that we replaced him with someone better, or at least someone with promise to do better. No guarantees, but you can't keep accepting a level that isn't even mediocre.

[Athers]

Reasons and faith are the interesting things here.

I think there are reasons to believe Freedman can turn the whole club around, despite how shite this season has been so far. You may call that faith beyond what we can see, I reckon there are different ways to see what's going on...

Not to mention we can't afford to sack him anyway and the prospective list just has Tony Mowbray's name on it.

Go on then squire please go ahead and name said reasons...

Alright, I don't need to make the points against as others are doing that fine without me, but some reasons I would stick with him other than we can't afford not to:

- He has in his short career turned a shite Palace side into a good one and turned a shite Bolton side into a decent one, or at the very least, one capable of getting some results together for a bit.

- Lawrence has been there and done it through bad patches and will be a good voice to have around.

- He has shown he's flexible unlike some in trying players in different positions, dropping his captain, changing his formation. Maybe you could interpret this as not knowing what his best team is, but clearly what looked like the best team on day 1 isn't what we or he thought. I'd rather this myself than have a merrygorounder who plays a rigid 4-4-2 every week regardless of form, opponent, defeats etc.

- He's even got Tim Ream doing a half decent job at centre-back.

- These loan signings have shown a bit of guts at the least, would back him again to bring people in now.

- He's been let down by quite a few of the players in my view.

- Stuff going on behind the scenes is apparently improving.

- There is sometimes spoken a phrase here that 'he'll be a good manager in the future', in which case feck it let's keep him and struggle through for a season or two.

Since Coyle fecked up our start in this league it's been an almost irrecoverable decline. I like Freedman and reckon if we stick with him he'll turn it around, despite what we're going through here. Of course it's not good enough at the moment.

[Peter Thompson]

Reasons and faith are the interesting things here.

I think there are reasons to believe Freedman can turn the whole club around, despite how shite this season has been so far. You may call that faith beyond what we can see, I reckon there are different ways to see what's going on...

Not to mention we can't afford to sack him anyway and the prospective list just has Tony Mowbray's name on it.

Go on then squire please go ahead and name said reasons...

Alright, I don't need to make the points against as others are doing that fine without me, but some reasons I would stick with him other than we can't afford not to:

- He has in his short career turned a shite Palace side into a good one and turned a shite Bolton side into a decent one, or at the very least, one capable of getting some results together for a bit.

- Lawrence has been there and done it through bad patches and will be a good voice to have around.

- He has shown he's flexible unlike some in trying players in different positions, dropping his captain, changing his formation. Maybe you could interpret this as not knowing what his best team is, but clearly what looked like the best team on day 1 isn't what we or he thought. I'd rather this myself than have a merrygorounder who plays a rigid 4-4-2 every week regardless of form, opponent, defeats etc.

- He's even got Tim Ream doing a half decent job at centre-back.

- These loan signings have shown a bit of guts at the least, would back him again to bring people in now.

- He's been let down by quite a few of the players in my view.

- Stuff going on behind the scenes is apparently improving.

- There is sometimes spoken a phrase here that 'he'll be a good manager in the future', in which case feck it let's keep him and struggle through for a season or two.

Since Coyle fecked up our start in this league it's been an almost irrecoverable decline. I like Freedman and reckon if we stick with him he'll turn it around, despite what we're going through here. Of course it's not good enough at the moment.

Decent response Athers....and I can understand your reasoning, even if I personally disagree.

As much as I think he will make a 'manager' one day I don't actually think he's changed anything at all at BWFC - and is far too up his own backside as a person to realise that whatever it is that he thinks he's doing isn't working....hence his frankly embarrassing post match interview on Saturday.

Until he starts to go for games from the off and for 90 mins pressurising the opposition - and stops sitting back letting teams have the ball whenever we go one up, inviting pressure we will never improve whether that be this season or in future seasons.

I don't know who the hell he thinks he's managing but its not Juventus in the 90's, and he obviously see's games totally different from the majority....therefore until he admits that he's doing things wrong how can we possibly improve ?

[boltonboris]

Various people have mentioned that Freedman has all but lost the people around him. One of the key people being Sir Lenny of Lawrence

[thebish]

Various people have mentioned that Freedman has all but lost the people around him. One of the key people being Sir Lenny of Lawrence

if that's the case - why doesn't sir Lenny of Lawrence just bugger off? is he being held at gunpoint?

[Athers]

IF he loses his number 2 it's very bad, I hadn't even considered this.

Either way I suppose it's more imaginative than the 'he's lost the dressing room' cliche rumour though!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Various people have mentioned that Freedman has all but lost the people around him. One of the key people being Sir Lenny of Lawrence

if that's the case - why doesn't sir Lenny of Lawrence just bugger off? is he being held at gunpoint?

In a manner of speaking, yes. He's a hostage to fortune. (well, you were the one who came out with this management is a lottery metaphor )

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Where can I find a list of league positions by week for Bolton over the past two years? Is there a nice little website that holds this information in an easily get-at-able format? Only I'm a sort of visual person, and I want to draw a nice little line graph so's I can see, visually, where we're at and the progression/regression we've had.

[Gary the Enfield]

Where can I find a list of league positions by week for Bolton over the past two years? Is there a nice little website that holds this information in an easily get-at-able format? Only I'm a sort of visual person, and I want to draw a nice little line graph so's I can see, visually, where we're at and the progression/regression we've had.

Don't forget the ppg and net spend lines will you?

[Lord Kangana]

I'm surprised that no-one has picked you up on this line you've been taking over the last couple of weeks, so I guess its down to me.

If any of you fancy coming to me for some urgent brain surgery, feel free, I'll give it my best shot. Because, and lets all be honest with ourselves here, brain surgery is always a gamble so just because somebody else has done it better in the past doesn't indicate they will continue to do so in the future.

Now can we get the discussion back on track?

all of which is perfectly logical if you really think that brain surgery and football management are in any way equivalent in terms of predictability...

you can post another "freedman out" post any time you like - go for it! it will enhance all our lives!

But that's the whole point - neither of them has a particularly predictable outcome, but I'm satisfied that I want someone who has proven past and recent competence to undertake the task in hand. Its fairly straightforward, its how most of us have jobs and/or careers.

So, can we move on, please?

[Enoch]

I think most of us have jobs and careers because we don't work in the glare of media, or public opinion and the incompetent wankers around us don't highlight our shortcomings every five minutes, for fear of exposing their own hapless inadequacies.

Just my opinion mind.

[thebish]

But that's the whole point - neither of them has a particularly predictable outcome, but I'm satisfied that I want someone who has proven past and recent competence to undertake the task in hand. Its fairly straightforward, its how most of us have jobs and/or careers.

So, can we move on, please?

I'm puzzled as to who or what is stopping you or us "moving on"!

go ahead and post another Freedman Out! post - you can do it in super big letters or in a new colour - I'm sure it'll be great. If the mods will let you get away with it - you could even start a whole new thread with a subtly different title. I don't want Freedman out (yet) - and saying so in the Freedman Out thread is (i think) entirely reasonable.

Freedman has managed before - and has won some games - he's proved he can do do the manager job. Coyle has a proven track record of winning some games and getting a team promoted from this division. fair play to you if you want Coyle back because of his proven track record - if that makes sense to you or represents "moving on" - then knock yourself out with excitement at the prospect - but I reserve the right to want to be more patient to see what Dougie has to offer first.

(I'm sure you're just a bit lost cos BWFCi isn't around - and you have withdrawal symptoms!)

[Lord Kangana]

Since Coyle fecked up our start in this league it's been an almost irrecoverable decline. I like Freedman and reckon if we stick with him he'll turn it around, despite what we're going through here. Of course it's not good enough at the moment.

You had me until this point.

We finished 7th last season. Which ever way you cut it, that doesn't fit the MO of irrecoverable decline. Moreover, that was with a team full of players that Coyle bought (like it or not). So we know the players we had were capable of better than they were doing. But we've now added significantly to our squad, and yet results have yet again (I think the important phrase here is "yet again") gone into steep decline. Plotted on a graph, it would be a bit foolish to blame the whole sorry state of this season on a man who left a year ago.

So, rather than it being irrecoverable decline, it was actually recoverable, we after all recovered, but then proceeded to once again enter further decline - to be clear here, we are worse off than at the equivalent stage last season under the previous manager. I think its time to stop blaming the last lot, and start focusing on what it is we're doing wrong right now.

[Lord Kangana]

But that's the whole point - neither of them has a particularly predictable outcome, but I'm satisfied that I want someone who has proven past and recent competence to undertake the task in hand. Its fairly straightforward, its how most of us have jobs and/or careers.

So, can we move on, please?

I'm puzzled as to who or what is stopping you or us "moving on"!

go ahead and post another Freedman Out! post - you can do it in super big letters or in a new colour - I'm sure it'll be great. If the mods will let you get away with it - you could even start a whole new thread with a subtly different title. I don't want Freedman out (yet) - and saying so in the Freedman Out thread is (i think) entirely reasonable.

Freedman has managed before - and has won some games - he's proved he can do do the manager job. Coyle has a proven track record of winning some games and getting a team promoted from this division. fair play to you if you want Coyle back because of his proven track record - if that makes sense to you or represents "moving on" - then knock yourself out with excitement at the prospect - but I reserve the right to want to be more patient to see what Dougie has to offer first.

(I'm sure you're just a bit lost cos BWFCi isn't around - and you have withdrawal symptoms!)

I'm rather lost as to which Freedman out post you're referring to, to which I'll be adding?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Where can I find a list of league positions by week for Bolton over the past two years? Is there a nice little website that holds this information in an easily get-at-able format? Only I'm a sort of visual person, and I want to draw a nice little line graph so's I can see, visually, where we're at and the progression/regression we've had.

Don't forget the ppg and net spend lines will you?

I won't. If I can find the info

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Various people have mentioned that Freedman has all but lost the people around him. One of the key people being Sir Lenny of Lawrence

if that's the case - why doesn't sir Lenny of Lawrence just bugger off? is he being held at gunpoint?

It isn't safe for his family to leave or summat.