Time to go

[James B]

the whole thing is a bit bizarre really. on the morning of the 17th april, to think this thread would appear, and generally be well received and agreed with a little over 6 months down the line, would be pretty much unthinkable.

i think in some ways we've been unlucky. with the holden & chung yong injuries. in other ways i've always had question marks over coyle. think he's the worst tactician we have had since sammy lee but at the same time you can't just ignore how good he had us playing around this time 12 months ago.

transfer wise is a mixed bag. wilshere & sturridge were inspired loan signings that helped keep us clear of relegation trouble in the last two seasons. and he signed stuart holden. probably the best permanent signing since cahill, maybe even better.

but i look at the current team going on the pitch and i genuinely think we have 1, maybe 2 players who can cut it at this level at the moment. so it's no real surprise to me we are where we are. and a lot of those players have come in under coyle's regime. others are hitting the twighlight of their career and are on the downslope, and then there are a couple i really can't judge yet (ngog, tuncay). not sure if i'll get a chance with the latter.

other problems are a lack of discipline. and mainly whenever we come under any kind of pressure in a game we simply can never hold out and grind out a draw or something (when was the last time we actually drew?!?!) and we wilt so very easily.

i think if things don't improve by, say, early december i would think about a change with the transfer window coming up, but who do we get in? and how much freedom would they have within the market?

more i think about it the more i think it's just the steady process of declinement that began the day allardyce started to basically lose the fire for the job he had here.

[marshall_42]

coyles odds to go have fallen form 7-1 (last week) to 6-1 (yesterday) to 4-1 (today) on skybet.

[BWFC_Insane]

On Coyles signings.

Holden, clearly a great signing, fluke or genius, you decide!

I'm not sure taking the best young players from the top 4 clubs on loan is proof of any genius though.

And let's face it, we only got Sturridge cos Carlos Velas agent dicked us around!

After that NRC on a free is a good buy.

Not sure about any of the rest! Wheater possibly ok!

I don't think he's bought well. Not at all!

And yes folk will talk about not much being spent, but hes spent more than Rodgers at Swansea or Lambert at Norwich, and no doubt our wage bill will be far bigger than both of theirs!

[DJBlu]

Just like to remind you all that we were in a similar scenario 08/09 season.

Having lost at home to Everton we were Second Bottom on equal points with 3rd bottom and 5 points from 8th.

I know we are 6 from 9th but the league is still tight.

We finished 13th that year.

Still possible guys. The bad run has to come to an end at some point.

I think Coyle is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Why play him it should be him. Then when it doesn't work, why did he play him ffs.

28 games left. I make that 84 points to play for. We are 2 away from getting out of the relegation zone. If stoke lose monday to Newcastle then they are gonna be right in it.

Lets get behind em and fecking stick it to em.

[Worthy4England]

Just like to remind you all that we were in a similar scenario 08/09

And our response was to say that the manager we had wasn't competent enough (having put us in that position) and we changed him.

I think our squad that season had waaaayyy more knowhow than this set of lightweight..

[Prufrock]

I still don't think is time. Things are shit at the moment but we have big players missing, are getting no luck, and at least he seems to be making the right decisions eg 4-5-1, Davies dropped, Robinson dropped. Let's not rewrite history, for all the possession they had first half yesterday, we were perfectly comfortable first half. A few occasions where the midfield didn't close down, again, but otherwise we were fine, they had one shot, and we created a few chances ourselves. What, seven minutes after half time, we're down to ten, and two nil down after conceding a penalty. We were shit after that, but I think that would knock anyone for six, never mind a confidence-low team in the bottom three. The main thing, the only redeeming thing is that we seemed to actually have a plan. Now if he panics, brings back Davies, makes other weird changes, and goes straight back to 4-4-2 then I'd start to become convinced it was time.

Teams who sack managers do shit, and for us that means going down. Those slagging Gartside off are off their fecking rockers. He did the right thing in giving Megson as long as possible, and I think he got the timing there spot on. Many people think the same moment has come with Coyle, and I can see why, but I disagree. The first one being Megson had a lot longer that season, and had pretty much played everybody once. That is a much fairer reflection, and over that period of time you certainly can't blame luck. I know people will go back to the semi-final, and again I can see why, but I think the post semi games were always going to be a write off. The two main reasons I'd not be sacking Coyle yet though are linked. The first is that unlike Megson, Coyle has shown us what it can be like when he gets it right. Under Megson it was always only ever going to be dour. For a club out size if that meant survival I was 'happy' to take it. Coyle has shown us that under him if he gets it right it can be brilliant. Last season we had probably the only consistent run of games where the team managed to break the ennui of midtable bleurgh since the first time we qualified for europe. I think that means he gets as long as possible. That probably isn't that much longer, but equally I don't think it is now. For all this talk of us being doomed, and down now, and utterly useless, all we'd have to do is finish top of a four team league which includes Blackburn, Wigan, and Wolves, and they are all shit, and somehow we're still above two of them! The second reason I wouldn't sack him yet is the classic who would we get. Hughes and MON wanters are living in dream world. That leaves Megson style proven failures, of Coyle style up and comings. Neither fill me with hope, confidence, or excitement.

As for the Gartside criticism, 1 in 4 good mangers is bollocks. Unless 'good', not 'great' mind, but 'good' means taking a club from the lower reaches to the Championship to Europe on a shoe-string budget in under five years. 1 great manager, one shocking manager (Lee), one boring, divisive, but did his job kept us up, went at around the right time manager (Megson) and one brilliant at first, struggling now manager (Coyle). Bearing in mind the Lee and Coyle appointments had near universal approval, and that even if he goes now after the shit of the last six months, Coyle was still IMO the right man at that time it is a bit harsh to slag off his managerial record. But then there are some who just love taking a pot-shot at people who have been crucial on our best period of success in most of our lifetimes.

And BWFCi, bit much to try to claim some prophecy element. You've always said these six months would make or break Coyle. Now either that is the most banal statement ever, the next six months tend to be pretty crucial for any manager, or you are trying to claim you had some foreknowledge, maybe just an inkling Coyle wouldn't be good enough. This would be you that in the last six months has referred to Coyle as a future top, top manager (Jamie) and compared him to Wenger, and talked about how he was far better than even Allardyce.

Who said football fans are fickle?

[BWFC_Insane]

Pru, I've always said that Coyle, needed to prove himself post Wembley, given the fact we knew we'd lose a few over the summer and it was a chance to rebuild in his own image.

I've backed Coyle because he brought enthusiasm and started to evolve how we played. On the other hand I've always had niggling doubts that he was lucky that ha managed to unearth Holden.

I've looked at other buys, and have been less then convinced.

For me you can't measure a manager till he's proper struggling. Well he has been for a long while now, and I'm not sure we are seeing much.

As for the difference between the time given to Coyle and Megson if we give Coyle half a season at the PPG we are chugging along at currently we will already be down.

Megson was at exactly a PPG, which is why there was still time IMO!

[plymouth wanderer]

I still don't think is time. Things are shit at the moment but we have big players missing, are getting no luck, and at least he seems to be making the right decisions eg 4-5-1, Davies dropped, Robinson dropped. Let's not rewrite history, for all the possession they had first half yesterday, we were perfectly comfortable first half. A few occasions where the midfield didn't close down, again, but otherwise we were fine, they had one shot, and we created a few chances ourselves. What, seven minutes after half time, we're down to ten, and two nil down after conceding a penalty. We were shit after that, but I think that would knock anyone for six, never mind a confidence-low team in the bottom three. The main thing, the only redeeming thing is that we seemed to actually have a plan. Now if he panics, brings back Davies, makes other weird changes, and goes straight back to 4-4-2 then I'd start to become convinced it was time.

Teams who sack managers do shit, and for us that means going down. Those slagging Gartside off are off their fecking rockers. He did the right thing in giving Megson as long as possible, and I think he got the timing there spot on. Many people think the same moment has come with Coyle, and I can see why, but I disagree. The first one being Megson had a lot longer that season, and had pretty much played everybody once. That is a much fairer reflection, and over that period of time you certainly can't blame luck. I know people will go back to the semi-final, and again I can see why, but I think the post semi games were always going to be a write off. The two main reasons I'd not be sacking Coyle yet though are linked. The first is that unlike Megson, Coyle has shown us what it can be like when he gets it right. Under Megson it was always only ever going to be dour. For a club out size if that meant survival I was 'happy' to take it. Coyle has shown us that under him if he gets it right it can be brilliant. Last season we had probably the only consistent run of games where the team managed to break the ennui of midtable bleurgh since the first time we qualified for europe. I think that means he gets as long as possible. That probably isn't that much longer, but equally I don't think it is now. For all this talk of us being doomed, and down now, and utterly useless, all we'd have to do is finish top of a four team league which includes Blackburn, Wigan, and Wolves, and they are all shit, and somehow we're still above two of them! The second reason I wouldn't sack him yet is the classic who would we get. Hughes and MON wanters are living in dream world. That leaves Megson style proven failures, of Coyle style up and comings. Neither fill me with hope, confidence, or excitement.

As for the Gartside criticism, 1 in 4 good mangers is bollocks. Unless 'good', not 'great' mind, but 'good' means taking a club from the lower reaches to the Championship to Europe on a shoe-string budget in under five years. 1 great manager, one shocking manager (Lee), one boring, divisive, but did his job kept us up, went at around the right time manager (Megson) and one brilliant at first, struggling now manager (Coyle). Bearing in mind the Lee and Coyle appointments had near universal approval, and that even if he goes now after the shit of the last six months, Coyle was still IMO the right man at that time it is a bit harsh to slag off his managerial record. But then there are some who just love taking a pot-shot at people who have been crucial on our best period of success in most of our lifetimes.

And BWFCi, bit much to try to claim some prophecy element. You've always said these six months would make or break Coyle. Now either that is the most banal statement ever, the next six months tend to be pretty crucial for any manager, or you are trying to claim you had some foreknowledge, maybe just an inkling Coyle wouldn't be good enough. This would be you that in the last six months has referred to Coyle as a future top, top manager (Jamie) and compared him to Wenger, and talked about how he was far better than even Allardyce.

Who said football fans are fickle?

Well the dust has settled been thinking about this all morning at work and i am with pru (you have saved me from loads of writing mate)

As i said in an earlier post i hate being negative and it was hard yestarday swansea looked like Barca and we looked like wigan they were that far ahead in terms of quality

But i think he should be allowed a little more time stoke up next and as we know that's where it all started so let's get behind the lads and coyle and banish those demons

[BWFC_Insane]

Stoke play Monday, Thursday away in Israel, then against us on Sunday.

If we can't beat them in those circumstances then we never will!

Bit like Wigan though, an isolated win will not cut it, we need to show we can put a proper run of results together to get out of this mess.

[Prufrock]

It isn't just about Stoke. If we lose to them I'd be a step nearer, but not there yet. Equally if we win it wouldn't all be roses. It seems fairly clear this year will be scrap. I'd be fairly confident if we stayed up though. Big players back, the fixtures can't be that cruel again, we can't have this much bad luck. But first we have to stay up. There is still plenty time, but if we keep not picking up points, keep making it hard for ourselves with red cards then we'll not long be adrift.

[James B]

stuff like bwfc_insane saying he thinks holden could have been a fluke signing smacks of what happened in the latter days of megsons reign. where fans would just rather pull their own teeth out than give credit.

doesn't sit well with me tbh.

[BWFC_Insane]

That's the thing Pru once you fall significantly behind a PPG then I think it's not far from being 'too late'!

[plymouth wanderer]

But hopefully the lads and coyle feel it all started with the stoke result as it did for me and giv the fvckers a good going over and get are season up and running

But if they don't then we are royaly fvcked because Stoke will rape us

Swansea were brilliant yestarday with there high tempo get in our faces type of game

Well stoke are gonna do that and then some

[BWFC_Insane]

stuff like bwfc_insane saying he thinks holden could have been a fluke signing smacks of what happened in the latter days of megsons reign. where fans would just rather pull their own teeth out than give credit.

doesn't sit well with me tbh.

Take your point, but what I'm trying to say is that Holden is cited as the defence of Coyles transfer strategy.

But it's likely he's a one off. Not like we are raiding the American market or elsewhere for similar frees.

Coyles plan has been to buy a mix of experience and young players. And let's face it take Holden out it's not been great.

Think what I'm saying is if you plotted a trend Holden would be an outlier rather than a forecast at this stage of proceedings!

[Prufrock]

That's the thing Pru once you fall significantly behind a PPG then I think it's not far from being 'too late'!

It's utterly irrelevant. Once you fall significantly behind 17th it isn't far from being too late. It's equally unfair to start talking about PPGs over short periods of time, with the fixtures we have had.

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

two major niggles for me
one- would a "good" manager have allowed the rest of the season to be a write off after a semi defeat? counterfactual of course but had we turned over Stoke would Stoke have had the sort of run since that we have had? i somehow doubt it.
two - were we really so utterly brilliant before Stoke? i seem to remember plenty of occasions when we weren't - round about this time last year Birmingham at home when we were gash and Chelsea in the Sir Nat match spring to mind.

Not saying we should get rid ............... but if OC has lost his luck that tbh he definately rode at times last year then maybe it would be better done quick

[Peter Thompson]

Apparently (stats from another site), its now only 4 wins out of 19 premier league games stretching back to Feb / March, with no draws since Feb - that's only 12 points from half a season.

That's not what I would call a short period of time....

[Worthy4England]

Teams who sack managers do shit, and for us that means going down.

I'm sure we looked at that in depth when we were thinking about changing LSL. I'm not convinced that it's correct at all. If memory serves, 2 out of 3 teams that sacked their manager improved over the season in terms of league placement...

[plymouth wanderer]

two major niggles for me
one- would a "good" manager have allowed the rest of the season to be a write off after a semi defeat? counterfactual of course but had we turned over Stoke would Stoke have had the sort of run since that we have had? i somehow doubt it.
two - were we really so utterly brilliant before Stoke? i seem to remember plenty of occasions when we weren't - round about this time last year Birmingham at home when we were gash and Chelsea in the Sir Nat match spring to mind.

Not saying we should get rid ............... but if OC has lost his luck that tbh he definately rode at times last year then maybe it would be better done quick

What the fvck are you expecting we are Bolton not Barca we are a mid table team at best where gonna have bad runs (talking last season ofcourse)

That chelsea result sticks in the throat abit for the obvious reason

but i think he should be allowed the stoke game at least

So we should get behind Coyle and the lads

[Harry Genshaw]

I'm still backing Coyle.

The players just aren't good enough imo. SKD n Jussi both past their best. Robinson, Knight & Steinsson were never any good. Mark Davies has just not done it over any period of time. Coyle, I'm sure is a great motivator but you can only get so much out of poor players and he hasn't had the money to throw at it. Throw in the injuries to Ricketts, Holden, CYL & Mears - what do folk expect?

According to Gartside, Allardyce wouldn't be good enough to get an interview when we hired Lee. We then took Megson from league 1 obscurity. Why anyone thinks we'd replace Owen with Hughes is just