The Promotion Commotion Transfer Thread 2017

[Prufrock]

Or he might be better suited out on the left where he has the option to go down the line as well. His pace outside chucking crosses in and maybe even Nadine would get goals .

[Tombwfc]

Don't agree. Rare you get wingers who aren't inconsistent with their end product. What Ameobi is is consistent in his work out of possession. Long way from being a "luxury". Question whether he's good enough a league up, and value for money on what could be relatively high wages. I'd certainly be making the call, but suspect a lot depends on how many others he gets.

Quite, but there are plenty of flaky mavericks who forever knock around the Football League for less money than Sammy is on (and most of them get linked with us frequently - Adam Hammill, Mustapha Carayol, van la Parra and now Maddison).

Like I said, I enjoyed watching him while he was here, but the end result was two goals and one assist, playing for one of the better sides in a poorer division. A creative player on 10k a week who doesn't create is a luxury.

He also allowed us to play our best football of the season. His ability to hold the ball in tight situations was invaluable.

I'm the first to talk end product. But also you need someone who can go past a player sometimes. Towards the end we lacked that and no matter how many good crosses Morais put in it didn't quite make up for that.

Sammy for me has more chance a level up than Morais. More chance of being effective and also is younger and hence if he does do well we will have a valuable player on the books.

How are we quantifying that we played our 'best football' under Ameobi, and moreso that it was he and he alone that allowed us to do so? Surely our best football was the run where we smashed Fleetwood, Oxford and Gillingham, beat Southend and pulled away from the chasing pack? It was certainly the point in the season where we finally clicked going forward.

Which games would you say Sammy was the difference in?

[officer_dibble]

The gillingham game at home probably.

I'd like both, 4231 again...(le fondre not in my starting xi there though...)

[Jim_McDonuts]

tee hee (cough cough)

[BWFC_Insane]

Don't agree. Rare you get wingers who aren't inconsistent with their end product. What Ameobi is is consistent in his work out of possession. Long way from being a "luxury". Question whether he's good enough a league up, and value for money on what could be relatively high wages. I'd certainly be making the call, but suspect a lot depends on how many others he gets.

Quite, but there are plenty of flaky mavericks who forever knock around the Football League for less money than Sammy is on (and most of them get linked with us frequently - Adam Hammill, Mustapha Carayol, van la Parra and now Maddison).

Like I said, I enjoyed watching him while he was here, but the end result was two goals and one assist, playing for one of the better sides in a poorer division. A creative player on 10k a week who doesn't create is a luxury.

He also allowed us to play our best football of the season. His ability to hold the ball in tight situations was invaluable.

I'm the first to talk end product. But also you need someone who can go past a player sometimes. Towards the end we lacked that and no matter how many good crosses Morais put in it didn't quite make up for that.

Sammy for me has more chance a level up than Morais. More chance of being effective and also is younger and hence if he does do well we will have a valuable player on the books.

How are we quantifying that we played our 'best football' under Ameobi, and moreso that it was he and he alone that allowed us to do so? Surely our best football was the run where we smashed Fleetwood, Oxford and Gillingham, beat Southend and pulled away from the chasing pack? It was certainly the point in the season where we finally clicked going forward.

Which games would you say Sammy was the difference in?

Those games were built on set pieces and Morais crosses. I'm fine with that.

But go back and look at some of the goals earlier in the season in the compilation. Some things Sammy did that nobody else we have is capable of. See for example his little reverse ball round the corner for Clough at Northampton.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Bradford and Millwall reach the final; Scunny and Fleetwood players up for grabs...?

[officer_dibble]

Definitley not arsed about fleetwoods. Scunny had a couple. The lad who scored a load early on, Morris? And the bald lad in midfield if we need a cheap spearing replacement perhaps.

[Prufrock]

Liked Madden but not sure he'd suit us.

Both Fleetwood full backs are decent, McLoughlin in particular would be good. Couldn't recognise any of the rest, other than Ben Davies and Bobby Grant's names seemed to come up a lot.

[TANGODANCER]

Confessing I predicted Scunthorpe and Fleetwood for the final, so my bid to be the new Mystic Mick falls flat. Fleetwood must be very pee'd off after being so close to us. "Funny old game".....somebody once said...

[Worthy4England]

Don't agree. Rare you get wingers who aren't inconsistent with their end product. What Ameobi is is consistent in his work out of possession. Long way from being a "luxury". Question whether he's good enough a league up, and value for money on what could be relatively high wages. I'd certainly be making the call, but suspect a lot depends on how many others he gets.

Quite, but there are plenty of flaky mavericks who forever knock around the Football League for less money than Sammy is on (and most of them get linked with us frequently - Adam Hammill, Mustapha Carayol, van la Parra and now Maddison).

Like I said, I enjoyed watching him while he was here, but the end result was two goals and one assist, playing for one of the better sides in a poorer division. A creative player on 10k a week who doesn't create is a luxury.

He also allowed us to play our best football of the season. His ability to hold the ball in tight situations was invaluable.

I'm the first to talk end product. But also you need someone who can go past a player sometimes. Towards the end we lacked that and no matter how many good crosses Morais put in it didn't quite make up for that.

Sammy for me has more chance a level up than Morais. More chance of being effective and also is younger and hence if he does do well we will have a valuable player on the books.

How are we quantifying that we played our 'best football' under Ameobi, and moreso that it was he and he alone that allowed us to do so? Surely our best football was the run where we smashed Fleetwood, Oxford and Gillingham, beat Southend and pulled away from the chasing pack? It was certainly the point in the season where we finally clicked going forward.

Which games would you say Sammy was the difference in?

Those games were built on set pieces and Morais crosses. I'm fine with that.

But go back and look at some of the goals earlier in the season in the compilation. Some things Sammy did that nobody else we have is capable of. See for example his little reverse ball round the corner for Clough at Northampton.

I wouldn't want us to exclusively set up goals one way or another as it tends to make us a bit predictable, but the three you mention are all valid ways of getting them. In a 1-0 win I don't care whether it was a long throw, cross from the byline (which Ameobi didn't do too much of from memory) or a little reverse ball.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

We need a bit of capable diversity in the squad and Morais and Ameobi would give us that. How reliably effective either would be over the course of a Championship season I'm not sure. My worry with Ameobi is that his bits of magic might be sparse and that we might regret it if we sign him on wages at the higher end of what we will be paying. Ameobi's tracking back and running would be a great benefit to us. Strangely maybe, but my abiding memories of the fella is more for his work without the ball than with.

As for wages, as much as we need to shed the Amos type wages, I think we also need to get down from the 8-10k wages we are still paying for some squad fillers. Even under straightened times under Lennon we were still dishing out 8k a week to Madine, who I would have thought was on a few thousand less at Wednesday.

Hopefully we''ll be able to attract a better class of loan player and I trust Parky to uncover some hidden gems for peanuts.

[Bruce Rioja]

Bradford and Millwall reach the final; Scunny and Fleetwood players up for grabs...?

That is quite incredible. I'd have had cash on it being a Scunny/Fleetwood final. It's as well I rarely bet

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

If we offer £8k-£10kpw which I suspect might be our level, then it might well be enough.

Out of interest, what makes you think that's our level, and roughly how many of those types of wages do you think we can carry?

I'm not saying you're wrong - I don't know the answer - but I wonder what kind of budget we're going to have. Obviously some will get paid more than others, but it's interesting to hear Parky say he wants a deeper squad with more options - you do sense that at various times this season (not just towards the end) he looked at his bench and couldn't see many who might make a positive impact. Speaking of which, considering he puts such a premium on hard work, it might be intriguing to know how many substitutions he made and how this compares with the average.

Good question as to where I get it from . I think I am thinking of:

1.) The fact that Trotter, Moxey, Dervite, Madine, Derik are all on that kind of money, according to the tabloid article that reported on estimated player salaries during our financial turmoil in 2016. And given we signed Madine and Derik when we were looking more towards the bargain side of the market, then that makes me think that is the going rate when signing someone like Ameobi, who has been on more than that, and is 25 and expecting a decent contract.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/footb ... eague-one/

2.) I have read articles like this that suggests the average Championship salary in 2014/15 was £324,250 or around £6200 pw. There has been a big influx of money into the Championship since then, with clubs on bigger parachute payments, increased Championship TV money, and a number of well supported clubs newly arrived in there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... along.html

3.) Leeds player salaries here in 2016 suggests £5kpw - £10kpw was standard, with Chris Wood on £17k pw. Leeds are one of the better supported teams, but haven't been receiving parachute payments.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/footba ... yers-wages

I have read somewhere (can't remember where), that our playing budget (as opposed to wage bill) this season was around £10m? If so then we can obviously afford a number of players on this type of salary.

Another way to look at it is that if this season we were losing £11m per annum with our current squad, and KA as he has said has made more than £1m pa in cost savings, and we as reported make £6m pa from increased TV and sponsorship in the Championship, and we make some more money from higher attendances, increased prices, as well as better chances of money making cup ties, then we should be able to carry a similar wage bill to this season and come close to break even? And if we get rid of Mark Davies, Trotter, Moxey (£2m pa saving), together with other like Wilson, Buxton, Clayton, and return of loanees, then there should be room for Ameobi on £8k-£10kpw?. Especially if Spearing goes or takes a drop in salary, all though Wheater, Beevers and Vela may deserve an increase?

What do you think DSB?

Wasn't ignoring this; was waiting till I got sat behind a keyboard. You certainly get marks for showing your working-out

Notoriously hard to get accurate details on player wages, not least because it's in nobody's interest to make them public to the taxman, team-mates, shareholders, fans etc. Since that Sun piece you mention I've been using the Oracle's player wages as the basis for assumptions and calculations; some of them seem a trifle high (Feeney on £17k?!) but not so daft as to seem unreal, especially given the ample evidence of, let's say, a "speculate to accumulate" attitude among the previous suits.

I'd also take the Mail's figures as reasonably accurate, although I'd be intrigued to know exactly who the "average" includes (would ours include Wilkinson? Walker? Honeyball and Earing?).

However, I wouldn't (and don't) particularly believe the Football Manager stats which the Daily Star has laughably spun into a story. The FM database is very impressive and its player ratings are reasonably reliable, but they simply rely upon people watching the players in action; access to sensitive financial records is much more restricted, and on that level they're often simply guessing.

Would be good if you could find the source for saying our wage bill this season is £10m. (Another problem, of course, is that we've not filed financial results since the coalition government.) As a rough thumb-rule, £20k pw is £1m pa, so £10k pw would be £0.5m, therefore we could afford 20 players on that salary – and presumably with a few of them on a bit less we can round out the squad. Parky has mentioned wanting not just better players but more options; we were constantly banging our heads on a league-imposed 23-player limit, and how many of those are out the door this summer?

[Worthy4England]

We need a bit of capable diversity in the squad and Morais and Ameobi would give us that. How reliably effective either would be over the course of a Championship season I'm not sure. My worry with Ameobi is that his bits of magic might be sparse and that we might regret it if we sign him on wages at the higher end of what we will be paying. Ameobi's tracking back and running would be a great benefit to us. Strangely maybe, but my abiding memories of the fella is more for his work without the ball than with.

As for wages, as much as we need to shed the Amos type wages, I think we also need to get down from the 8-10k wages we are still paying for some squad fillers. Even under straightened times under Lennon we were still dishing out 8k a week to Madine, who I would have thought was on a few thousand less at Wednesday.

Hopefully we''ll be able to attract a better class of loan player and I trust Parky to uncover some hidden gems for peanuts.

Aye - I think that's what pi$$es folks off - If player X is on £13k per week and player Y on £5k per week, it's not unreasonable over the course of a season to see that difference translated onto the pitch more often than not. Our lot generally look like they're all on about the same money (with some notable exceptions such as Moxey and Trotter).

As for things Morais can't do - there seems to be some sorta notion that "crosses from the byline" was just balls over the top that he just had to run and dink across. Not so. There was plenty to do, for example, on the 2nd and 4th goals against Gillingham. They both involved beating players and then putting pretty decent crosses into a defensively high risk area.

[Worthy4England]

If we offer £8k-£10kpw which I suspect might be our level, then it might well be enough.

Out of interest, what makes you think that's our level, and roughly how many of those types of wages do you think we can carry?

I'm not saying you're wrong - I don't know the answer - but I wonder what kind of budget we're going to have. Obviously some will get paid more than others, but it's interesting to hear Parky say he wants a deeper squad with more options - you do sense that at various times this season (not just towards the end) he looked at his bench and couldn't see many who might make a positive impact. Speaking of which, considering he puts such a premium on hard work, it might be intriguing to know how many substitutions he made and how this compares with the average.

Good question as to where I get it from . I think I am thinking of:

1.) The fact that Trotter, Moxey, Dervite, Madine, Derik are all on that kind of money, according to the tabloid article that reported on estimated player salaries during our financial turmoil in 2016. And given we signed Madine and Derik when we were looking more towards the bargain side of the market, then that makes me think that is the going rate when signing someone like Ameobi, who has been on more than that, and is 25 and expecting a decent contract.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/footb ... eague-one/

2.) I have read articles like this that suggests the average Championship salary in 2014/15 was £324,250 or around £6200 pw. There has been a big influx of money into the Championship since then, with clubs on bigger parachute payments, increased Championship TV money, and a number of well supported clubs newly arrived in there.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... along.html

3.) Leeds player salaries here in 2016 suggests £5kpw - £10kpw was standard, with Chris Wood on £17k pw. Leeds are one of the better supported teams, but haven't been receiving parachute payments.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/footba ... yers-wages

I have read somewhere (can't remember where), that our playing budget (as opposed to wage bill) this season was around £10m? If so then we can obviously afford a number of players on this type of salary.

Another way to look at it is that if this season we were losing £11m per annum with our current squad, and KA as he has said has made more than £1m pa in cost savings, and we as reported make £6m pa from increased TV and sponsorship in the Championship, and we make some more money from higher attendances, increased prices, as well as better chances of money making cup ties, then we should be able to carry a similar wage bill to this season and come close to break even? And if we get rid of Mark Davies, Trotter, Moxey (£2m pa saving), together with other like Wilson, Buxton, Clayton, and return of loanees, then there should be room for Ameobi on £8k-£10kpw?. Especially if Spearing goes or takes a drop in salary, all though Wheater, Beevers and Vela may deserve an increase?

What do you think DSB?

Wasn't ignoring this; was waiting till I got sat behind a keyboard. You certainly get marks for showing your working-out

Notoriously hard to get accurate details on player wages, not least because it's in nobody's interest to make them public to the taxman, team-mates, shareholders, fans etc. Since that Sun piece you mention I've been using the Oracle's player wages as the basis for assumptions and calculations; some of them seem a trifle high (Feeney on £17k?!) but not so daft as to seem unreal, especially given the ample evidence of, let's say, a "speculate to accumulate" attitude among the previous suits.

I'd also take the Mail's figures as reasonably accurate, although I'd be intrigued to know exactly who the "average" includes (would ours include Wilkinson? Walker? Honeyball and Earing?).

However, I wouldn't (and don't) particularly believe the Football Manager stats which the Daily Star has laughably spun into a story. The FM database is very impressive and its player ratings are reasonably reliable, but they simply rely upon people watching the players in action; access to sensitive financial records is much more restricted, and on that level they're often simply guessing.

Would be good if you could find the source for saying our wage bill this season is £10m. (Another problem, of course, is that we've not filed financial results since the coalition government.) As a rough thumb-rule, £20k pw is £1m pa, so £10k pw would be £0.5m, therefore we could afford 20 players on that salary – and presumably with a few of them on a bit less we can round out the squad. Parky has mentioned wanting not just better players but more options; we were constantly banging our heads on a league-imposed 23-player limit, and how many of those are out the door this summer?

If you can be arsed, most of the wages thing is covered in the Clubs Accounts and generally gives the numbers of players they have on the books (which in the Championship is often up there in the late 50's early 60's as they include Academy players and the like. You could take a punt on some of that information...

Derby - wage bill £28.1m (strangely enough up from £19.2 the prior year) - knock off £300k for declared management remuneration so £27.8m - deduct 251-60 = 191 - 60 are managers and coaches - knock £1m for manager and 59 * £60k for coaches (probably overstated) - £4.5m. 191-25 = 166 other admin n stuff - let's call it £35k per annum = £5.8m and maybe £500k for part timers (61 in total) - you'd be left with a matchday squad budget of £17.5m = ~£13k per week. Probably not right, but probably not too bad as an "indication"

[TANGODANCER]

Lawrie Wilson is hoping for a future at Bolton (BN.). Obviously I haven't seen him as much as most but I always thought him a decent player in a position we needed one. I'd reckon we could do worse..?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

We need a bit of capable diversity in the squad and Morais and Ameobi would give us that. How reliably effective either would be over the course of a Championship season I'm not sure. My worry with Ameobi is that his bits of magic might be sparse and that we might regret it if we sign him on wages at the higher end of what we will be paying. Ameobi's tracking back and running would be a great benefit to us. Strangely maybe, but my abiding memories of the fella is more for his work without the ball than with.

As for wages, as much as we need to shed the Amos type wages, I think we also need to get down from the 8-10k wages we are still paying for some squad fillers. Even under straightened times under Lennon we were still dishing out 8k a week to Madine, who I would have thought was on a few thousand less at Wednesday.

Hopefully we''ll be able to attract a better class of loan player and I trust Parky to uncover some hidden gems for peanuts.

Aye - I think that's what pi$$es folks off - If player X is on £13k per week and player Y on £5k per week, it's not unreasonable over the course of a season to see that difference translated onto the pitch more often than not. Our lot generally look like they're all on about the same money (with some notable exceptions such as Moxey and Trotter).

As for things Morais can't do - there seems to be some sorta notion that "crosses from the byline" was just balls over the top that he just had to run and dink across. Not so. There was plenty to do, for example, on the 2nd and 4th goals against Gillingham. They both involved beating players and then putting pretty decent crosses into a defensively high risk area.

I'm of the mind that a quality delivery is just as effective no matter the opposition. Whether Morais will be as adept as creating that half yard of space to deliver the ball in the champs I don't know. What we do know is that the defenders we're up against will be a little better at dealing with the delivery, but I'd hope we could offset that with a Madine upgrade, or better still, a Madine reprogram that makes him a bit braver and reacts more to what is happening around him.

I'm more worried about Ameobi if we sign him. If he signs on a middling squad wage then I'm happy, but not anywhere near the sort of wages he's rumoured to be on. Hopefully we've an eye on a few from 'cheaper leagues abroad' and some that can make a step up from where we've just come from.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Lawrie Wilson is hoping for a future at Bolton (BN.). Obviously I haven't seen him as mush as most but I always thought him a decent player in a position we needed one. I'd reckon we could do worse..?

Course we could. Question we have to ask is, could we do better?

As I said when I posted the poll, he seems popular around the club, an organiser on the pitch and wouldn't go boat-rocking if he wasn't first choice. That said, if Parky is trying to balance "keeping the core" with "upgrading", Wilson might be dangerously closer to the pile marked "dispensable". We were linked in January with Bradford's Stephen Darby, who is now out of the team and out of contract; then there's Wabara, who might offer a wider range of cover. It might well be that we ask all three of them – and more – what shade of wage they'd be after before we sit down to proper negotiations.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

If you can be arsed, most of the wages thing is covered in the Clubs Accounts and generally gives the numbers of players they have on the books (which in the Championship is often up there in the late 50's early 60's as they include Academy players and the like. You could take a punt on some of that information...

Derby - wage bill £28.1m (strangely enough up from £19.2 the prior year) - knock off £300k for declared management remuneration so £27.8m - deduct 251-60 = 191 - 60 are managers and coaches - knock £1m for manager and 59 * £60k for coaches (probably overstated) - £4.5m. 191-25 = 166 other admin n stuff - let's call it £35k per annum = £5.8m and maybe £500k for part timers (61 in total) - you'd be left with a matchday squad budget of £17.5m = ~£13k per week. Probably not right, but probably not too bad as an "indication"

Intriguing. I'd ask you to do the same for us, but it's a bit murkier...

[Worthy4England]

If you can be arsed, most of the wages thing is covered in the Clubs Accounts and generally gives the numbers of players they have on the books (which in the Championship is often up there in the late 50's early 60's as they include Academy players and the like. You could take a punt on some of that information...

Derby - wage bill £28.1m (strangely enough up from £19.2 the prior year) - knock off £300k for declared management remuneration so £27.8m - deduct 251-60 = 191 - 60 are managers and coaches - knock £1m for manager and 59 * £60k for coaches (probably overstated) - £4.5m. 191-25 = 166 other admin n stuff - let's call it £35k per annum = £5.8m and maybe £500k for part timers (61 in total) - you'd be left with a matchday squad budget of £17.5m = ~£13k per week. Probably not right, but probably not too bad as an "indication"

Intriguing. I'd ask you to do the same for us, but it's a bit murkier...

Done it previously but that wouldn't be applicable now. Problem with us is that the last Accounts were to 2015 - so some while ago and as you say it was very murky and things will almost certainly have changed quite substantively. At that point, we had £26.1m and 68 football players. 303 staff in total (including I think part time - gate staff, stewards, car park and the like, generally) - so in the round, we'd be a couple of mill lower than Derby for 2014/15 (albeit from the same time period, they were only at £19.2m) - would sorta lead to a figure of £15-15.5m do ~£12k per week - which probably ties in with some of our £16k per week contingent who we'd not gotten rid of and the broad statements coming out of the Club that we'd headed it down towards £10m in the intervening period.