January 2023 Transfer Window

[TANGODANCER]

Do we want/need another centre back while we have Santos and Toal and possibly Thomason and Aimson, in terms of single centre backs, or do we do a Beevers and go twin? In the past we've had some dominant anchors in Barrass, Stubbs, Fish, Cahil, Bruno and of course Hiero, but the Beevers worked well as a pair. I'm seeing less flexibility with modern systems as players get tagged with definitive names and roles. Personally, I'd love to see a Campo type player in front of the defence (who wouldn't?) but I'm still not sure where Evatt is heading...or is that the idea..confusion camouflaging cunning plans?

[BWFC_Insane]

Do we want/need another centre back while we have Santos and Toal and possibly Thomason and Aimson, in terms of single centre backs, or do we do a Beevers and go twin? In the past we've had some dominant anchors in Barrass, Stubbs, Fish, Cahil, Bruno and of course Hiero, but the Beevers worked well as a pair. I'm seeing less flexibility with modern systems as players get tagged with definitive names and roles. Personally, I'd love to see a Campo type player in front of the defence (who wouldn't?) but I'm still not sure where Evatt is heading...or is that the idea..confusion camouflaging cunning plans?

Thomason isn't a centre back he's a midfield player and Aimson has gone to Exeter.

We play three centre backs so, Jones (who isn't really a CB), Toal, Santos, Johnston are 4 players covering 3 positions. And Johnston may be out a while.

So yes we need a centre back. And we have a player who sits in front of the defence in MJ but with the system Evatt plays and a back three its a fairly redundant position and role as we setup with two number 8's.

[GhostoftheBok]

From the little I know he's a more combative, physical (and better) Sheehan. So that hybrid 8/10. Which makes sense for us.

For all Shoretire has looked great so far he's not been tested yet in the actual number 10 role (as in behind two strikers) with the defensive job on his hands too against a good side. He's also for me only shown glimpses as yet. He's not been asked to run a game and again he probably can but its a step or two up from the roles he's had thus far which are effectively 'make things happen'. You aren't doing that away in a play off against a top side.

It's fair to reserve judgement on younger player, though that's maybe a little harsh on Shoretire - who I think has been excellent so far.

Devine is no Roy Kean, but he is an arsehole - in the good sense. He's got a bit of nastiness about him on the pitch.

The people who say he's an attacking midfielder are right, in that he's definitely more progressive than defensive and can play as a 10. Where he'll end up playing I don't know. There's a danger is saying an 18 year old is "this" or "that", because when they're not you can lose sight of the talent and just see the failure to play the role you've mistakenly given them.

I think in our midfield 3 he could arguably play any of the roles at a push, but we've put a year of work into getting Morley to the point where he can defend properly and Devine has none of the experience Aaron had when he arrived.

I'm trying to think of the best player comparison for his skill set. At that age, probably Alexis Mac Allister when he was at Argentinos Juniors.

[BWFC_Insane]

From the little I know he's a more combative, physical (and better) Sheehan. So that hybrid 8/10. Which makes sense for us.

For all Shoretire has looked great so far he's not been tested yet in the actual number 10 role (as in behind two strikers) with the defensive job on his hands too against a good side. He's also for me only shown glimpses as yet. He's not been asked to run a game and again he probably can but its a step or two up from the roles he's had thus far which are effectively 'make things happen'. You aren't doing that away in a play off against a top side.

It's fair to reserve judgement on younger player, though that's maybe a little harsh on Shoretire - who I think has been excellent so far.

Devine is no Roy Kean, but he is an arsehole - in the good sense. He's got a bit of nastiness about him on the pitch.

The people who say he's an attacking midfielder are right, in that he's definitely more progressive than defensive and can play as a 10. Where he'll end up playing I don't know. There's a danger is saying an 18 year old is "this" or "that", because when they're not you can lose sight of the talent and just see the failure to play the role you've mistakenly given them.

I think in our midfield 3 he could arguably play any of the roles at a push, but we've put a year of work into getting Morley to the point where he can defend properly and Devine has none of the experience Aaron had when he arrived.

I'm trying to think of the best player comparison for his skill set. At that age, probably Alexis Mac Allister when he was at Argentinos Juniors.

Yeah in no way is that a criticism of Shoretire. Don't read it like that. He's a young lad who has in patches looked incredible in two games. But both games were essentially about him finding space and making things happen. Its early days and we haven't seen him play a full Lee style role (without Lee in there) against a good side yet. Its not me saying he cannot - he probably can but lets not get ahead of ourselves. There may be a need for different shapes or options in certain games. In the same way as Iredale as a more defensive LWB option was probably not ideal mostly but we'd have benefitted from that away at Derby were he fit.

[jmjhb]

I can't remember the difference between a 6 and a 8, i think 6 is a defensive midfielder and 8 box to box.

But don't we need someone more defensively minded (ie. A 6) who can sit in there and also ping the ball about a bit, leaving Lee/Dempsey/Morley to do more work further up the pitch?

[Worthy4England]

Do we want/need another centre back while we have Santos and Toal and possibly Thomason and Aimson, in terms of single centre backs, or do we do a Beevers and go twin? In the past we've had some dominant anchors in Barrass, Stubbs, Fish, Cahil, Bruno and of course Hiero, but the Beevers worked well as a pair. I'm seeing less flexibility with modern systems as players get tagged with definitive names and roles. Personally, I'd love to see a Campo type player in front of the defence (who wouldn't?) but I'm still not sure where Evatt is heading...or is that the idea..confusion camouflaging cunning plans?

I'm not sure they're tagged with definitive names and roles any more than they ever were (just maybe the tags change names).

[BWFC_Insane]

I can't remember the difference between a 6 and a 8.

But don't we need someone more defensively minded who can sit in there and also ping the ball about a bit, leaving Lee/Dempsey/Morley to do more work further up the pitch?

We're basically playing a 2 in midfield with a 10 ahead of them. That means that you can't really afford a true sitter in the campo style. Morley plays a bit deeper and makes the play. Dempsey does the running.

My guess is that Lee could play where Dempsey is or Devine could play whether any of the three do in theory but as Ghost says he's probably not ideal for Morley's role. MJ is cover for that - albeit a different sort and more a 6 than an 8.

[Prufrock]

You'd think Devine would be competing with Dempsey, and at a push you might play both to rest Morley. Lee deeper now would be a disaster IMO, just does not have the legs. We were told Shoretire can play 8 too, but I'm not sold on that.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him come in and Sheehan go out on loan to try to free some wages up for the centre half(ves). MJ might also have suitors, but while he doesn't really suit this system I'd worry about the defensive nous of any midfield we could put out without Morley, then.

Against Forest Green he fecked up his lines at one point and their centre-back ended up waltzing from the edge of his box deep into our half (shuddering memories of a bepermed Brazilian had to be squashed back down). But then on Saturday Charles shot against the car came from him winning a big tackle with their centre half on the front foot. Agree with BWFCi that there's just a question mark on whether he can do that bit consistently (rather than a suggestion he can't). He looks the business on the ball though.

[Prufrock]

Isn't Devine an attacking midfielder? Doesn't seem a position of need for us given we've brought Shoretire in.

yes he is. Guess the idea is it frees Lee to be more of an 8 than a 10. And it could also be one of those things where opportunity knocks.

Seems to me that Big Clubs tend to have more 10s than other positions. Guess it’s the kind of position a kid can impress in while young, rather than at centre-back. Centre-backs do exist, though. Didn’t one help Sunderland to promotion?

Callum Doyle. Currently on loan at Coventry from City.

Not to be confused with Tommy Doyle (not related) another City youngster who played for Sheff U last night on the telly, and is grandson of City royalty Glyn Pardoe and Mike Doyle (formerly of this parish).

[Worthy4England]

and is grandson of City royalty Glyn Pardoe and Mike Doyle (formerly of this parish).

I'm not sure I hold with all these new fangled notions...

[Prufrock]

I can't remember the difference between a 6 and a 8, i think 6 is a defensive midfielder and 8 box to box.

But don't we need someone more defensively minded (ie. A 6) who can sit in there and also ping the ball about a bit, leaving Lee/Dempsey/Morley to do more work further up the pitch?

Jonathan Wilson might argue it should be 4 and 8 in this sceptered isle, but I think what you say above is broadly what people mean by that.

I think Morley is very much a 4/6 for us now. But the only real cover for him there would be MJ. I think they think Dempsey could do it too, but I wouldn't be messing about with his role now if I could avoid it. He's in a great little groove.

[GhostoftheBok]

Yeah in no way is that a criticism of Shoretire. Don't read it like that. He's a young lad who has in patches looked incredible in two games. But both games were essentially about him finding space and making things happen. Its early days and we haven't seen him play a full Lee style role (without Lee in there) against a good side yet. Its not me saying he cannot - he probably can but lets not get ahead of ourselves. There may be a need for different shapes or options in certain games. In the same way as Iredale as a more defensive LWB option was probably not ideal mostly but we'd have benefitted from that away at Derby were he fit.

Yeah, young players will be patchy and drift in and out a bit. Most have to learn how to impose themselves on games and not be reactive. It's just how it is. For my part, I felt Shoretire did amazingly well to take the game on against Charlton.

I've been having a look for a while at who we could replace Lee with, especially if we went up. It's doable.

Despite his legs getting iffy, Lee keeps showing why he is so important to us. The man is magic. We might have to do without him after this season, but we can't lose what he offers.

Evatt wanted quality in the building - players who can produce in the final third to make things happen. Shoretire does (and Devine *would*) fit that bill. Neither is as nailed-on to do a job every game as a 34-year-old who has been there and done it, but then we'd not get a "Lee at a good age" right now. I think both Shoretire and Devine have a good chance of making it as Premier League players and we can't really ask more from loanees than that.

[Prufrock]

and is grandson of City royalty Glyn Pardoe and Mike Doyle (formerly of this parish).

I'm not sure I hold with all these new fangled notions...

Ha! Pardoe and Doyle had finished playing by the mid -80s. Ian bastard Wright has got a grandson playing professional football ffs! (Also came through at Man City - is that their scouting approach?!).

Hope this helps

[BWFC_Insane]

Not transfer related but since this is a busy thread and this is worthy of listening to - (and covers a lot about his transfers) - this interview with Super John is brilliant - if you like these in depth sort of things. Hour and a half and there is a part 2 coming. But a fascinating insight into football back then and into SJ himself. Lots I didn't really know. Never knew he played in NZ for a year!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpFp9StUuEU

[GhostoftheBok]

Jonathan Wilson might argue it should be 4 and 8 in this sceptered isle, but I think what you say above is broadly what people mean by that.

I think Morley is very much a 4/6 for us now. But the only real cover for him there would be MJ. I think they think Dempsey could do it too, but I wouldn't be messing about with his role now if I could avoid it. He's in a great little groove.

We're now having the free centre half play ball-winner (tackle, head it away, etc) in deeper midfield positions - with the two centre mids focused on the technical press.

Morley's skill set thus works very well for us defensively, even if he missed some of his triggers against Charlton (especially when their winger cut inside Johnston for that shot).

It cost us a goal against Charlton, because the free man stepped out and the confusion from the defensive change meant nobody shifted in to cover the gap; but generally it has been very solid.

There's very much a Jorginho and Kante thing developing between the two midfield roles and I kind of like it.

[Worthy4England]

and is grandson of City royalty Glyn Pardoe and Mike Doyle (formerly of this parish).

I'm not sure I hold with all these new fangled notions...

Ha! Pardoe and Doyle had finished playing by the mid -80s. Ian bastard Wright has got a grandson playing professional football ffs! (Also came through at Man City - is that their scouting approach?!).

Hope this helps

It was more the thought of how butt ugly the progeny of Pardoe and Doyle would be as a grandson...

[Worthy4England]

Not transfer related but since this is a busy thread and this is worthy of listening to - (and covers a lot about his transfers) - this interview with Super John is brilliant - if you like these in depth sort of things. Hour and a half and there is a part 2 coming. But a fascinating insight into football back then and into SJ himself. Lots I didn't really know. Never knew he played in NZ for a year!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpFp9StUuEU

Yeah - listened to part 1. Grand stuff

[Prufrock]

Jonathan Wilson might argue it should be 4 and 8 in this sceptered isle, but I think what you say above is broadly what people mean by that.

I think Morley is very much a 4/6 for us now. But the only real cover for him there would be MJ. I think they think Dempsey could do it too, but I wouldn't be messing about with his role now if I could avoid it. He's in a great little groove.

We're now having the free centre half play ball-winner (tackle, head it away, etc) in deeper midfield positions - with the two centre mids focused on the technical press.

Morley's skill set thus works very well for us defensively, even if he missed some of his triggers against Charlton (especially when their winger cut inside Johnston for that shot).

It cost us a goal against Charlton, because the free man stepped out and the confusion from the defensive change meant nobody shifted in to cover the gap; but generally it has been very solid.

There's very much a Jorginho and Kante thing developing between the two midfield roles and I kind of like it.

Did you see Roy Keane on Arsenal-United for Saka's goal? He was talking about McTominay not stepping out to engage him (and how he loved it when wingers cut inside because it meant you could step out and nail them ). Was very reminiscent of the shot you're talking about in the first half.

My post above was more about on the ball than off it (though that obviously affects your starting position off). The Jorginho-Kante comparison is a nice one. Morlinho picks things up off the centre backs from deep, keeps the ball moving, makes angles and has a great range of passing. N'Golo Dempsey starts deepish but then bursts forward and gets in and around the box (Morley's effort just before half-time on Saturday came from a lay off from Dempsey who received the ball back to goal in the box).

As you say, it's a lovely balance, and while I think Dempsey could fill in for Morley, I think you'd lose something from both (or at least one depending on how good Devine is).

But we don't really have any cover for either of them at the same level (MJ and Sheehan) and I guess we're only getting one in. And would be a huge ask for it to be someone who could do both.

[Prufrock]

and is grandson of City royalty Glyn Pardoe and Mike Doyle (formerly of this parish).

I'm not sure I hold with all these new fangled notions...

Ha! Pardoe and Doyle had finished playing by the mid -80s. Ian bastard Wright has got a grandson playing professional football ffs! (Also came through at Man City - is that their scouting approach?!).

Hope this helps

It was more the thought of how butt ugly the progeny of Pardoe and Doyle would be as a grandson...

ah, with you.

Don't know why I thought you might be worried about feeling old.

[GhostoftheBok]

Did you see Roy Keane on Arsenal-United for Saka's goal? He was talking about McTominay not stepping out to engage him (and how he loved it when wingers cut inside because it meant you could step out and nail them ). Was very reminiscent of the shot you're talking about in the first half.

My post above was more about on the ball than off it (though that obviously affects your starting position off). The Jorginho-Kante comparison is a nice one. Morlinho picks things up off the centre backs from deep, keeps the ball moving, makes angles and has a great range of passing. N'Golo Dempsey starts deepish but then bursts forward and gets in and around the box (Morley's effort just before half-time on Saturday came from a lay off from Dempsey who received the ball back to goal in the box).

As you say, it's a lovely balance, and while I think Dempsey could fill in for Morley, I think you'd lose something from both (or at least one depending on how good Devine is).

But we don't really have any cover for either of them at the same level (MJ and Sheehan) and I guess we're only getting one in. And would be a huge ask for it to be someone who could do both.

Outside the Prem big clubs you're very rarely going to see any squad that can go like-for-like everywhere across the park. You pick your battles.

Devine's range of passing is superb, so if Morley were out and we'd signed Alfie then we could fudge how we work things to make it work.

I love the midfield 3 of Morley-Dempsey-Lee, but they also all have their own foibles. Lee's getting on. Dempsey isn't quite as technical as Evatt might want in those forward areas. Morley's defending still needs work.

Other lads we throw in will have their own issues, but hopefully enough up side to keep us progressing.