Through the Forest have I gone..Nottingham Forest away. Sat

[TANGODANCER]

If Ward wasn't looking for that pen, call me Van Gogh. He was at full stretch to even get to the ball. I'd love to see that in total slow motion. Nobody can be really surprised at losing away from home with ten men and one a goalie change. Could have been so different.

[Enoch]

Pick the bones out of THAT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEnv4Uo ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm just transfixed by the swerve on that wardrobe!

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm not one for going back or comparing managers, but the re-emergance of that ugly mug today did prompt a thought/question, given the managers' comments on each other before the game (and the fact that Lennon's Bolton have shipped seven in two games at Freedman's Forest). I have little doubt that Freedman would take this BWFC squad down. Would Lennon keep that Forest team up? Under the same conditions here, would Freedman have hired as ineffectively this summer?

Of course he would have. He hired just as ineffectively every summer he was here (even with relative wealth). That's why we never won a game until November.

Yeah, Freedman set records for shitness. Lets not become wistful, we've just replaced him with another dud. Again.

First thing to note is that I'm not wistful. Freedman underperformed, I was glad when he went and I wouldn't want him back - even as desperate as things are. But that doesn't mean I can't compare the two. You and BWFCi spent half a decade comparing Coyle and Megson; on the day we get f*cked (again) by the team of our last manager, I thought it might be worth a thought. I don't even know what I think the answer is, but I'm willing to ponder it.

Did Freedman hire as badly as Lennon? It's always going to be a qualitative assessment, but there are quantifiable similarities. In summer 2014 Freedman signed nine free transfers, in summer 2010 Lennon signed 10.

Freedman's were Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Andy Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Andy Hughes and Quade Taylor.
Lennon's were Amos, Madine, Osede, Ceberio, Lussey, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado and Rachubka.

Using a vaguely "simultaneous equations" method to eliminate the unnecessary from either side, I think it's fair to ignore Fitzsimons (DF) and Rachubka (NL) as the same thing: back-up goalkeepers if necessary. (Perhaps the more experienced Rachubka is on slightly higher wage, but then Fitzsimons was third choice rather than second choice.) Similarly, we can ignore young midfielders Robinson (DF) and Ceberio/Lussey (NL), signed to see what they could do in the Academy.

That leaves us with:
DF: Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Trotter, Moxey and Quade Taylor.
NL: Amos, Madine, Osede, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano and Casado.

And how many league games have they started this season?
DF: Feeney 26, Moxey 19, Danns 17, Dervite 15, Trotter 2, Quade Taylor 0. = 79 starts
NL: Amos 27, Madine 18, Casado 9, Osede 7, Wilson 7, Dobbie 2, Pisano 2. = 72 starts

...which is interesting, given that Lennon is picking the team. My strong suspicion is that even Lennon doesn't trust his own free signings as much as Freedman's.

For the record, my qualitative assessment: they're both shit managers. But it will be interesting to see which one gets the more jobs in England. Haven't Forest spent quite some time under an FFP embargo? They seem to be a ways above us in the league.

I'd trust Freedman with money over Lennon. Lennon in my view has very little clue of what we need in this division.

Freedman has done a decent job at Forest under the circumstances there. Their fans don't like it, but Christ how I'd swap with their position.

Both managers were promised more than they got on appointment here. But I think neither had the ability to find some absolute gems on cheap deals or frees whilst here.

[TonyDomingos]

Pick the bones out of THAT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEnv4Uo ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm just transfixed by the swerve on that wardrobe!

[malcd1]

Pick the bones out of THAT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEnv4Uo ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm just transfixed by the swerve on that wardrobe!

What do you mean? You surely don't mean the still on the video before playing it?

[Lord Kangana]

I'm not one for going back or comparing managers, but the re-emergance of that ugly mug today did prompt a thought/question, given the managers' comments on each other before the game (and the fact that Lennon's Bolton have shipped seven in two games at Freedman's Forest). I have little doubt that Freedman would take this BWFC squad down. Would Lennon keep that Forest team up? Under the same conditions here, would Freedman have hired as ineffectively this summer?

Of course he would have. He hired just as ineffectively every summer he was here (even with relative wealth). That's why we never won a game until November.

Yeah, Freedman set records for shitness. Lets not become wistful, we've just replaced him with another dud. Again.

First thing to note is that I'm not wistful. Freedman underperformed, I was glad when he went and I wouldn't want him back - even as desperate as things are. But that doesn't mean I can't compare the two. You and BWFCi spent half a decade comparing Coyle and Megson; on the day we get f*cked (again) by the team of our last manager, I thought it might be worth a thought. I don't even know what I think the answer is, but I'm willing to ponder it.

Did Freedman hire as badly as Lennon? It's always going to be a qualitative assessment, but there are quantifiable similarities. In summer 2014 Freedman signed nine free transfers, in summer 2010 Lennon signed 10.

Freedman's were Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Andy Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Andy Hughes and Quade Taylor.
Lennon's were Amos, Madine, Osede, Ceberio, Lussey, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado and Rachubka.

Using a vaguely "simultaneous equations" method to eliminate the unnecessary from either side, I think it's fair to ignore Fitzsimons (DF) and Rachubka (NL) as the same thing: back-up goalkeepers if necessary. (Perhaps the more experienced Rachubka is on slightly higher wage, but then Fitzsimons was third choice rather than second choice.) Similarly, we can ignore young midfielders Robinson (DF) and Ceberio/Lussey (NL), signed to see what they could do in the Academy.

That leaves us with:
DF: Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Trotter, Moxey and Quade Taylor.
NL: Amos, Madine, Osede, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano and Casado.

And how many league games have they started this season?
DF: Feeney 26, Moxey 19, Danns 17, Dervite 15, Trotter 2, Quade Taylor 0. = 79 starts
NL: Amos 27, Madine 18, Casado 9, Osede 7, Wilson 7, Dobbie 2, Pisano 2. = 72 starts

...which is interesting, given that Lennon is picking the team. My strong suspicion is that even Lennon doesn't trust his own free signings as much as Freedman's.

For the record, my qualitative assessment: they're both shit managers. But it will be interesting to see which one gets the more jobs in England. Haven't Forest spent quite some time under an FFP embargo? They seem to be a ways above us in the league.

It still all brings me back to the appointment of LSL. That piece of hubris was further compounded when Megson lucked out and kept us up. I think from that point Gartside (who, for the record, I'm told is seriously ill not faking) thought he could walk on water with managers. Hence the " we've got this Premier League survival sussed, we're not going down" codswallop under Coyle. How's that one working out, huh, Phil?

Anyway, to ponder the imponderable, I think under the circumstances each manager we've had since Sam has left us in a progressively worse position with progressively worse and more precarious finances. The utter cluelessness with which we took the field under Freedman still burns bright in my minds eye - and I have a hunch he had better resources at his disposal than say Lennon. When I lament on the dross that came in then (in what was probably our last sups in the last chance saloon) I just cannot believe he ever got another job in football again.

But, and here's the nub, why have we continued such a spiral without arrest? Manager after manager, with the occasional blip, has managed to plunge us further into the mire. The question we have to ask ourselves is why? What is it that we as a club have done not to halt that slide? If it was my money right now I'd be angry just as I expect ED is.

[BWFC_Insane]

It still all brings me back to the appointment of LSL. That piece of hubris was further compounded when Megson lucked out and kept us up. I think from that point Gartside (who, for the record, I'm told is seriously ill not faking) thought he could walk on water with managers. Hence the " we've got this Premier League survival sussed, we're not going down" codswallop under Coyle. How's that one working out, huh, Phil?

Anyway, to ponder the imponderable, I think under the circumstances each manager we've had since Sam has left us in a progressively worse position with progressively worse and more precarious finances. The utter cluelessness with which we took the field under Freedman still burns bright in my minds eye - and I have a hunch he had better resources at his disposal than say Lennon. When I lament on the dross that came in then (in what was probably our last sups in the last chance saloon) I just cannot believe he ever got another job in football again.

But, and here's the nub, why have we continued such a spiral without arrest? Manager after manager, with the occasional blip, has managed to plunge us further into the mire. The question we have to ask ourselves is why? What is it that we as a club have done not to halt that slide? If it was my money right now I'd be angry just as I expect ED is.

Interesting assessment.

For the record I spoke to Gartside during the summer after Lee had been appointed and the rationale was that Lee had been brought in always with the thought he'd take over. Initially with Allardyce moving upstairs to a director of football or non footballing director role. Things went sour there clearly but Lee was always the plan.

The idea had been continuity with perhaps a manager (with a superb coaching record) prepared to be slightly more expansive.

However, what wasn't said but was intimated between the lines was that they wanted someone who could carry on the work without having to spend a lot. Lee had a few million quid to sign 8 or 9 players, perhaps even more in the end. We did have a squad on the way down.

But Lee clearly destabilised that and had little clue. Hardly surprising given he was thrust into a job.

The chance presumably was there to get a decent manager at the time but it would have relied on Eddie spending quite a bit of money to attract someone with a squad rebuild on the cards. And I think at that time they felt he had put the money in for Anelka and Diouf and that was enough.

[Worthy4England]

It still all brings me back to the appointment of LSL. That piece of hubris was further compounded when Megson lucked out and kept us up. I think from that point Gartside (who, for the record, I'm told is seriously ill not faking) thought he could walk on water with managers. Hence the " we've got this Premier League survival sussed, we're not going down" codswallop under Coyle. How's that one working out, huh, Phil?

Anyway, to ponder the imponderable, I think under the circumstances each manager we've had since Sam has left us in a progressively worse position with progressively worse and more precarious finances. The utter cluelessness with which we took the field under Freedman still burns bright in my minds eye - and I have a hunch he had better resources at his disposal than say Lennon. When I lament on the dross that came in then (in what was probably our last sups in the last chance saloon) I just cannot believe he ever got another job in football again.

But, and here's the nub, why have we continued such a spiral without arrest? Manager after manager, with the occasional blip, has managed to plunge us further into the mire. The question we have to ask ourselves is why? What is it that we as a club have done not to halt that slide? If it was my money right now I'd be angry just as I expect ED is.

Interesting assessment.

For the record I spoke to Gartside during the summer after Lee had been appointed and the rationale was that Lee had been brought in always with the thought he'd take over. Initially with Allardyce moving upstairs to a director of football or non footballing director role. Things went sour there clearly but Lee was always the plan.

The idea had been continuity with perhaps a manager (with a superb coaching record) prepared to be slightly more expansive.

However, what wasn't said but was intimated between the lines was that they wanted someone who could carry on the work without having to spend a lot. Lee had a few million quid to sign 8 or 9 players, perhaps even more in the end. We did have a squad on the way down.

But Lee clearly destabilised that and had little clue. Hardly surprising given he was thrust into a job.

The chance presumably was there to get a decent manager at the time but it would have relied on Eddie spending quite a bit of money to attract someone with a squad rebuild on the cards. And I think at that time they felt he had put the money in for Anelka and Diouf and that was enough.

Megson spent a good few quid that first January and then a good few more in the summer...proper money.

The situation up to and including Coyle was that all managers had been backed, pretty much. We still had the 14th highest wage bill the year we got relegated. Freedman was stuffed all ends up. Left with barely Championship squad that had just dropped out of Prem and having missed out on straight back up, then having to slash the wage bill. A situation that's got much worse under Lennon.

[thebish]

...and - on the face of it - a planned and prepared succession-plan is not a daft idea.

[jimbo]

While Megson spent a fair bit, most of it was fairly good investment. Cahill, Lee, M Davies and Muamba were all good young players who could either give years of service or make a tidy profit on - unfortunately we stuffed up with 3 of them and got unlucky with the 4th.
Others like Steinsson, Matt Taylor gave a few good years of service and were probably worth the £3m or so he paid for them.
There were some shockers in there, but aside from Knight they were either loans or Danny Shittu.

IMO it was Coyle where it all went wrong - lots of money spent on big contracts for players who offered absolutely nothing and we then spent 90% of their time at the club trying to offload them.

[Worthy4England]

While Megson spent a fair bit, most of it was fairly good investment. Cahill, Lee, M Davies and Muamba were all good young players who could either give years of service or make a tidy profit on - unfortunately we stuffed up with 3 of them and got unlucky with the 4th.
Others like Steinsson, Matt Taylor gave a few good years of service and were probably worth the £3m or so he paid for them.
There were some shockers in there, but aside from Knight they were either loans or Danny Shittu.

IMO it was Coyle where it all went wrong - lots of money spent on big contracts for players who offered absolutely nothing and we then spent 90% of their time at the club trying to offload them.

Aye, that's where I was at. Why the fckr wasn't shot in the Oct/Nov is beyond my comprehension. Instead, welet him spend more hard cash in the Jan...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

While Megson spent a fair bit, most of it was fairly good investment. Cahill, Lee, M Davies and Muamba were all good young players who could either give years of service or make a tidy profit on - unfortunately we stuffed up with 3 of them and got unlucky with the 4th.
Others like Steinsson, Matt Taylor gave a few good years of service and were probably worth the £3m or so he paid for them.
There were some shockers in there, but aside from Knight they were either loans or Danny Shittu.

IMO it was Coyle where it all went wrong - lots of money spent on big contracts for players who offered absolutely nothing and we then spent 90% of their time at the club trying to offload them.

Aye, that's where I was at. Why the fckr wasn't shot in the Oct/Nov is beyond my comprehension. Instead, welet him spend more hard cash in the Jan...

Yes, that. Sui-feckin-sidal.

[BWFC_Insane]

It still all brings me back to the appointment of LSL. That piece of hubris was further compounded when Megson lucked out and kept us up. I think from that point Gartside (who, for the record, I'm told is seriously ill not faking) thought he could walk on water with managers. Hence the " we've got this Premier League survival sussed, we're not going down" codswallop under Coyle. How's that one working out, huh, Phil?

Anyway, to ponder the imponderable, I think under the circumstances each manager we've had since Sam has left us in a progressively worse position with progressively worse and more precarious finances. The utter cluelessness with which we took the field under Freedman still burns bright in my minds eye - and I have a hunch he had better resources at his disposal than say Lennon. When I lament on the dross that came in then (in what was probably our last sups in the last chance saloon) I just cannot believe he ever got another job in football again.

But, and here's the nub, why have we continued such a spiral without arrest? Manager after manager, with the occasional blip, has managed to plunge us further into the mire. The question we have to ask ourselves is why? What is it that we as a club have done not to halt that slide? If it was my money right now I'd be angry just as I expect ED is.

Interesting assessment.

For the record I spoke to Gartside during the summer after Lee had been appointed and the rationale was that Lee had been brought in always with the thought he'd take over. Initially with Allardyce moving upstairs to a director of football or non footballing director role. Things went sour there clearly but Lee was always the plan.

The idea had been continuity with perhaps a manager (with a superb coaching record) prepared to be slightly more expansive.

However, what wasn't said but was intimated between the lines was that they wanted someone who could carry on the work without having to spend a lot. Lee had a few million quid to sign 8 or 9 players, perhaps even more in the end. We did have a squad on the way down.

But Lee clearly destabilised that and had little clue. Hardly surprising given he was thrust into a job.

The chance presumably was there to get a decent manager at the time but it would have relied on Eddie spending quite a bit of money to attract someone with a squad rebuild on the cards. And I think at that time they felt he had put the money in for Anelka and Diouf and that was enough.

Megson spent a good few quid that first January and then a good few more in the summer...proper money.

The situation up to and including Coyle was that all managers had been backed, pretty much. We still had the 14th highest wage bill the year we got relegated. Freedman was stuffed all ends up. Left with barely Championship squad that had just dropped out of Prem and having missed out on straight back up, then having to slash the wage bill. A situation that's got much worse under Lennon.

The first window for Megson was entirely funded by Anelka's sale. Then in the summer he did spend a lot. But based on what I learned a few times I talked to Gartside in that period was that something has changed outside the club and Eddie was able and willing to invest in the team more than previously.

Definitely when Lee was appointed Eddie felt he'd done his bit more or less with Anelka and Diouf. I'm not saying Lee wasn't backed, just that if we had wanted a top manager at that time it would have required more spending than Eddie appeared to be prepared for. Whilst we spent more a year later, it doesn't mean he was prepared to do so earlier in similar amounts.

When you consider how close we came that season to going down it makes sense to an extent football wise. But other clubs were spending too. The race to stay up was getting harder and more expensive.

[Worthy4England]

Understand timing is everything and just because you have money 12 months after an event doesn't mean you had it 12 months prior on the date of the event.

But whilst you point to how close we were to going down, the season before we were 4th in Jan and qualified for Europe, so ED and PG probably had a point in terms of the investments being there. Seemed to me that trying to get a half decent manager in would've been cheaper...

[Lord Kangana]

Buy cheap, buy twice.

Hindsights wonderful. But it still should be held up to scrutiny that we appointed a complete novice when in the highest position we'd been in for nearly half a century. A novice who was good mates with the chairman. And then when he wasn't good enough there was Mark Curtis. And then another one of the chairman's mates when that went (surprisingly) tits up.

[jonnycooper]

Was it £4m that Coyle spent on Marvin sodall?

[jimbo]

Was it £4m that Coyle spent on Marvin sodall?

Yup, using the money we got from cashing in on Cahill on Sordell and Ream. Hardly surprising that relegation followed!

[Tombwfc]

First thing to note is that I'm not wistful. Freedman underperformed, I was glad when he went and I wouldn't want him back - even as desperate as things are. But that doesn't mean I can't compare the two. You and BWFCi spent half a decade comparing Coyle and Megson; on the day we get f*cked (again) by the team of our last manager, I thought it might be worth a thought. I don't even know what I think the answer is, but I'm willing to ponder it.

Did Freedman hire as badly as Lennon? It's always going to be a qualitative assessment, but there are quantifiable similarities. In summer 2014 Freedman signed nine free transfers, in summer 2010 Lennon signed 10.

And how many league games have they started this season?
DF: Feeney 26, Moxey 19, Danns 17, Dervite 15, Trotter 2, Quade Taylor 0. = 79 starts
NL: Amos 27, Madine 18, Casado 9, Osede 7, Wilson 7, Dobbie 2, Pisano 2. = 72 starts

...which is interesting, given that Lennon is picking the team. My strong suspicion is that even Lennon doesn't trust his own free signings as much as Freedman's.

For the record, my qualitative assessment: they're both shit managers. But it will be interesting to see which one gets the more jobs in England. Haven't Forest spent quite some time under an FFP embargo? They seem to be a ways above us in the league.

Does that prove Dougie recruited better than Lennon? It just a list of 19 really average to poor footballers who have combined to make one of the worst BWFC teams ever.

Dougie had two goes at summer recruitment and 10 games in we were 23rd the first year and 24th the second. Lennon had us 22nd and that's as high as we've been since. First full year under Freedman he was able to bring in better players on loan to get us out of trouble, the next year we had the new manager bounce of Lennon to save us, and this year we have neither. Hence certain doom.

Shit is shit. I happen to think there are more mitigating circumstances with Lennon, but they both recruited badly and ended up with bad results.

...and - on the face of it - a planned and prepared succession-plan is not a daft idea.

I think it sounds better than it is in practice. How often do you see it actually work nowadays in football?

I mentioned it in another thread on a different subject recently, but long term planning when it comes to football management is just pointless when nobody involved ever has the patience/confidence in a plan to see it to a conclusion.

In this case, according to Gartside (who, and I wish him all the best, talks out of his arse) the plan was always for Sammy Lee to take over and for Big Sam to move upstairs in the name of continuity. But Allardyce clearly didn't want to retire (he's still managing nine years later), and Sammy Lee clearly had no intention of doing things the way Sam did.

Sam upped and left, meaning there was no time to prepare Lee to take over (although on a practical level I've no idea what this would entail) and no Allardyce to guide him from upstairs. So in the end the long term succession plan ended up being to throw the job to somebody with no experience of management, allow him to attempt to completely change everything with no serious budget for recruitment, and then feck the whole thing off 13 games later. It was borne out of arrogance and a lack of respect for the job Allardyce had done.

[StaffsTrotter]

I'm not one for going back or comparing managers, but the re-emergance of that ugly mug today did prompt a thought/question, given the managers' comments on each other before the game (and the fact that Lennon's Bolton have shipped seven in two games at Freedman's Forest). I have little doubt that Freedman would take this BWFC squad down. Would Lennon keep that Forest team up? Under the same conditions here, would Freedman have hired as ineffectively this summer?

Of course he would have. He hired just as ineffectively every summer he was here (even with relative wealth). That's why we never won a game until November.

Yeah, Freedman set records for shitness. Lets not become wistful, we've just replaced him with another dud. Again.

First thing to note is that I'm not wistful. Freedman underperformed, I was glad when he went and I wouldn't want him back - even as desperate as things are. But that doesn't mean I can't compare the two. You and BWFCi spent half a decade comparing Coyle and Megson; on the day we get f*cked (again) by the team of our last manager, I thought it might be worth a thought. I don't even know what I think the answer is, but I'm willing to ponder it.

Did Freedman hire as badly as Lennon? It's always going to be a qualitative assessment, but there are quantifiable similarities. In summer 2014 Freedman signed nine free transfers, in summer 2010 Lennon signed 10.

Freedman's were Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Andy Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Andy Hughes and Quade Taylor.
Lennon's were Amos, Madine, Osede, Ceberio, Lussey, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado and Rachubka.

Using a vaguely "simultaneous equations" method to eliminate the unnecessary from either side, I think it's fair to ignore Fitzsimons (DF) and Rachubka (NL) as the same thing: back-up goalkeepers if necessary. (Perhaps the more experienced Rachubka is on slightly higher wage, but then Fitzsimons was third choice rather than second choice.) Similarly, we can ignore young midfielders Robinson (DF) and Ceberio/Lussey (NL), signed to see what they could do in the Academy.

That leaves us with:
DF: Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Trotter, Moxey and Quade Taylor.
NL: Amos, Madine, Osede, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano and Casado.

And how many league games have they started this season?
DF: Feeney 26, Moxey 19, Danns 17, Dervite 15, Trotter 2, Quade Taylor 0. = 79 starts
NL: Amos 27, Madine 18, Casado 9, Osede 7, Wilson 7, Dobbie 2, Pisano 2. = 72 starts

...which is interesting, given that Lennon is picking the team. My strong suspicion is that even Lennon doesn't trust his own free signings as much as Freedman's.

For the record, my qualitative assessment: they're both shit managers. But it will be interesting to see which one gets the more jobs in England. Haven't Forest spent quite some time under an FFP embargo? They seem to be a ways above us in the league.

I'd trust Freedman with money over Lennon. Lennon in my view has very little clue of what we need in this division.

Freedman has done a decent job at Forest under the circumstances there. Their fans don't like it, but Christ how I'd swap with their position.

Both managers were promised more than they got on appointment here. But I think neither had the ability to find some absolute gems on cheap deals or frees whilst here.

As an observation I would suggest that Freedmans 'frees' were on far more money than Lennons & therefore in theory a better class of free. Its been interesting to hear (unsubstantiated though it is) of various references to our big earners being the likes of Medo, Moxey et al. Seems no doubt in my mind that Lennon had to fish with a smaller worm to wiggle

[Lord Kangana]

Fnarr.