JUST FCUK OFF

[BWFC_Insane]

This is the team that conceded three at home to Birmingham the other week and four against Reading.

I take the point that we're a complete shambles and have been all season, but I'm not sure why you'd illustrate that by comparing us to West Ham as opposed to say Norwich City.

Well indeed. But I was referring to West Ham and how they played last night. In a massive game.

The trouble with using Norwich or Swansea is that someone will come along and say "but they have better players than us".......even though those teams were assembled far more cheaply than ours and are carrying far lower wage bills....

[thebish]

This is the team that conceded three at home to Birmingham the other week and four against Reading.

I take the point that we're a complete shambles and have been all season, but I'm not sure why you'd illustrate that by comparing us to West Ham as opposed to say Norwich City.

Well indeed. But I was referring to West Ham and how they played last night. In a massive game.

The trouble with using Norwich or Swansea is that someone will come along and say "but they have better players than us".......even though those teams were assembled far more cheaply than ours and are carrying far lower wage bills....

I'm struggling to see the sense when you are trying to show how to approach a game when you have lesser players - to give an example of West Ham - who do NOT have lesser players than Cardiff.

you seem to be saying - there are ways of playing with LESSER players more effectively (and I doubt anyone would argue with you about that) - BUT you use as your example a game where West Ham played with SUPERIOR players...

that's why I am a bit confused by your post...

[BWFC_Insane]

This is the team that conceded three at home to Birmingham the other week and four against Reading.

I take the point that we're a complete shambles and have been all season, but I'm not sure why you'd illustrate that by comparing us to West Ham as opposed to say Norwich City.

Well indeed. But I was referring to West Ham and how they played last night. In a massive game.

The trouble with using Norwich or Swansea is that someone will come along and say "but they have better players than us".......even though those teams were assembled far more cheaply than ours and are carrying far lower wage bills....

I'm struggling to see the sense when you are trying to show how to approach a game when you have lesser players - to give an example of West Ham - who do NOT have lesser players than Cardiff.

you seem to be saying - there are ways of playing with LESSER players more effectively (and I doubt anyone would argue with you about that) - BUT you use as your example a game where West Ham played with SUPERIOR players...

that's why I am a bit confused by your post...

I'm saying that its EVEN more important when you are playing against "better teams".

West Ham last night was an example of how to set up and play in an organised way. They may have "had the better players on the night" but we don't play in that way even when we have had "better players" than the opposition.

We should be doing that all the time, irrespective of who we are playing.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Not getting this west ham thing

They looked organised against a team they're better than, well surely no shit surelock?

[boltonboris]

Aye, but we're a better team than Wolves. In both games there were glaring mistakes and holes everywhere when we played them.

I agree that we should try to be solid whoever we play. Against 'lesser' teams, as long as we keep the oppo's score at nil, we'll still create chances when we attack.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

But presumably since we beat them then our glaring mistakes and holes were not quite as bad as theirs, making us more organised than them

[CAPSLOCK]

We beat Villa

We were so well organised they missed about 6 very good chances in 30 minutes

You've got to be very well organised to offer Villa so many chances.........



We're a fcuking shambles

I can't believe some won't see it

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Obviously though West Ham are better, because they beat Cardiff. And looked organised doing so.

This is the argument, not how fcking shit we are. All makes perfect sense.

[BWFC_Insane]

Obviously though West Ham are better, because they beat Cardiff. And looked organised doing so.

This is the argument, not how fcking shit we are. All makes perfect sense.

Thats not clearly not the argument.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

Haha ok if you say so...i dont think you even know yourself anymore.

[BWFC_Insane]

Haha ok if you say so...i dont think you even know yourself anymore.

Yeah just cos some are determined to miss the point doesn't mean that.

West Ham last night were an example of how we used to setup and be organised. Irrelevant, of who they were playing, how they played in other games, how good their players are, how good ours are etc.

They set up in such a way as every player knew their job off the ball, they were compact and pressed as a team when appropriate and dropped off to deny space in behind for Cardiff when necessary.

Alls I'm saying is we've not ONCE this season been as well organised and structured as they were last night. Not fecking once.

[ohjimmyjimmy]

How can it be irrelevant of who they were playing...surely you organise your team and tactics according to your opponent? If we're accusing Coyle of not doing that, i mean.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

And look how delighted Hammers fans are about it.

Obviously Coyle's got a lot to learn. Part of me hopes he goes learning it somewhere else. Part of me thinks football fans are never happy, and it's never been easier to complain. Eeh, back when I were a lad you had to write to a fanzine....

[BWFC_Insane]

How can it be irrelevant of who they were playing...surely you organise your team and tactics according to your opponent? If we're accusing Coyle of not doing that, i mean.

Clearly you've entirely missed the point.

How organised you are when you don't have the ball is irrelevant of who you're playing.

Good teams can break down even well organised sides yes. But you still need that basic organisation and structure throughout irrespective.

We've not had it at all this season. As has been pointed out, even when we've won games we've still been a shambles defensively (first half against Wolves, Villa for example). We've never looked capable of saying to an opposition "You'll have to break us down cos we're not giving you anything".

[ohjimmyjimmy]

How can it be irrelevant of who they were playing...surely you organise your team and tactics according to your opponent? If we're accusing Coyle of not doing that, i mean.

Clearly you've entirely missed the point.

How organised you are when you don't have the ball is irrelevant of who you're playing.

Good teams can break down even well organised sides yes. But you still need that basic organisation and structure throughout irrespective.

We've not had it at all this season. As has been pointed out, even when we've won games we've still been a shambles defensively (first half against Wolves, Villa for example). We've never looked capable of saying to an opposition "You'll have to break us down cos we're not giving you anything".

Amazing how people always miss the point with you isnt it...why does that always happen just to you!

Surely, surely, you can concede that it's a little bit stretching things to use a Championship side to illustrate your point? As pointed out already, they must have recently said 'you'll have to break us down cos we're not giving you anything' to a (now) Premier League side in Reading...and guess what, they gave them 3 goals

[BWFC_Insane]

How can it be irrelevant of who they were playing...surely you organise your team and tactics according to your opponent? If we're accusing Coyle of not doing that, i mean.

Clearly you've entirely missed the point.

How organised you are when you don't have the ball is irrelevant of who you're playing.

Good teams can break down even well organised sides yes. But you still need that basic organisation and structure throughout irrespective.

We've not had it at all this season. As has been pointed out, even when we've won games we've still been a shambles defensively (first half against Wolves, Villa for example). We've never looked capable of saying to an opposition "You'll have to break us down cos we're not giving you anything".

Amazing how people always miss the point with you isnt it...why does that always happen just to you!

Surely, surely, you can concede that it's a little bit stretching things to use a Championship side to illustrate your point? As pointed out already, they must have recently said 'you'll have to break us down cos we're not giving you anything' to a (now) Premier League side in Reading...and guess what, they gave them 3 goals

But I was referring to a one off performance and style of play. Why do you keep suggesting I'm saying West Ham are better than us? I'm not. I'm saying they went to Cardiff and were very organised and played in a way we haven't this season.

Whenever a point is made about how well a side is organised people always want to talk about quality rather than the organisation and discipline. Watch when we defend and see how many players we have who don't track runners. How many times we leave a player isolated one on one defending against a winger or striker. These aren't individual mistakes we're not set up with that organised defensive team structure in mind to make sure we're solid when the other team are in posession.

[thebish]

Haha ok if you say so...i dont think you even know yourself anymore.

Yeah just cos some are determined to miss the point doesn't mean that.

that's because you have slightly CHANGED your point... originally you were saying your point was about how a team of LESSER players can organise themselves to give a team of BETTER players a game of it... (you were responding to the argument that spurs beat us cos they have better players.)

to then pick a team of better players playing against lesser players to illustrate is what's baffling...

[thebish]

And look how delighted Hammers fans are about it.

Obviously Coyle's got a lot to learn. Part of me hopes he goes learning it somewhere else. Part of me thinks football fans are never happy, and it's never been easier to complain. Eeh, back when I were a lad you had to write to a fanzine....

I'm really not sure what I think... there is still a voice in my head that says it is sometimes better to stick with a manager and give him the time to settle and grow into the job... there is still a voice that asks - "is the devil we could attract and don't yet know any better than the one we have?"

but there is also the voice that asks - when do you exhaust all the excuses and conclude that Coyle can't hack it in the Premiership...

I'm not sure the answers are as simple as some might suggest...

[BWFC_Insane]

And look how delighted Hammers fans are about it.

Obviously Coyle's got a lot to learn. Part of me hopes he goes learning it somewhere else. Part of me thinks football fans are never happy, and it's never been easier to complain. Eeh, back when I were a lad you had to write to a fanzine....

I'm really not sure what I think... there is still a voice in my head that says it is sometimes better to stick with a manager and give him the time to settle and grow into the job... there is still a voice that asks - "is the devil we could attract and don't yet know any better than the one we have?"

but there is also the voice that asks - when do you exhaust all the excuses and conclude that Coyle can't hack it in the Premiership...

I'm not sure the answers are as simple as some might suggest...

As I've said before I'd not be sacking Coyle come the end of the season. I firmly believe he should have been binned off in November and am certain in my mind that if we'd done that and brought in a more pragmatic manager we'd have stayed up.

But that aside, we're too far down the line of committing to a "youth rebuild" to bring anyone else in. We're going to lose several senior players for no fees in the summer and whatever division we're in are going to have to replace them either through our own youth players or some probably imported young players or a few youngish frees.

If we stay up, job done and hope to god we're better next season.

If we go down then it lets Coyle blood the youth and as thats suppose to be "his thing" we'll see how good he is at it.

We're unlikely to find anyone to buy into that philosophy should we go down anyway, so might as well see if he can deliver on at least one thing......

[Wandering Willy]

But I was referring to a one off performance and style of play. Why do you keep suggesting I'm saying West Ham are better than us? I'm not. I'm saying they went to Cardiff and were very organised and played in a way we haven't this season.

What an utter pile of shite.

Cardiff were dreadful last night and West Ham were not much better scoring from a miss hit shot and a deflected goal. The football on display was atrocious and to suggest that either team was organised is nonsense.

It appears that you will fabricate any reason to find a stick to beat Coyle with.