The Debt.

[jaffka]

So we have quite a bit that can be sold but not to the tune of £130m+

[Athers]

Would take a more financial brain than I to work out how much the club could be sold for with this type of 'soft debt' attached. If it was debt to the bank/HRMC and being a massive loss making business I don't think we could give it away for free? So again would depend on what ED would do with his money owed to any potential new owner. I don't think Dubai-man will be appearing with £200m and £150m to give to ED anytime soon though.

[BWFC_Insane]

There is no way on gods earth that Eddie Davies is seeing £150M back, ever. So I'm assuming he's already effectively written some of that off as it seems the club is loosely "for sale". However, it isn't like he's handed over £150M to the club a portion of that will be interest and I suspect there is some tax write off somewhere against the investment and debt to ensure Eddie isn't £150M out of pocket totally.....

[jaffka]

I don't think that Eddie will have lost out at all over this. If he was losing such a vast sum he would have wound it up years ago.

[ChrisC]

For anybody who didn't hear the interview. Most of it is in here..

Last month, Wanderers posted a record £50.7million loss for the financial year ending June 2013 - taking their net debt to a total of £163.8million. £151.3million of that is owed to Moonshift Investment Ltd, the parent company of owner Eddie Davies, with the remainder in the hands of Barclays Bank and a small number of investors.

In an exclusive interview with BBC Radio Manchester, Gartside was questionned on the debt and issued a strong defence of the club's business operations, saying supporters should not be misled by the substantial figure and that Wanderers are in a much better position than it appears from the outside because of their assets and the ongoing input of Davies.

"I'm sick of saying it," Gartside said. "I've said it to you, I've said it to the fans; This is an amount of money that somebody has lent to us, who is a benefactor. This is not bank debt.

"If some other foreign owner does that sort of thing it never gets a mention. Because it's Eddie Davies and because it's Bolton Wanderers it gets called debt.

"I know, technically, it is debt but it is not in the sense of a bank debt. We owe the bank £8million, an overdraft, and there would be many a club in this country who would be envious of having an £8million overdraft in a football club.

"It doesn't cause me any sleepless nights. It might cause Eddie a few, but it doesn't cause me any.

"Financial Fair Play does have an impact on us because it means that the owners of clubs, like Nottingham Forest or Bolton Wanderers or anybody else, can't actually give the club money in the way that they have done in the past and it does put some restrictions on us."

Under fresh terms that were agreed upon last year, Davies will charge 0% interest on all debt owed directly to him. Any decision to call in the debt must be done with notice of 10 years. Gartside admits Wanderers would be unable to raise such funds from a bank, but says the assets owned by Davies would allow him to recoup his money either by selling them off or by refinancing.

"Where am I going to get it from?" he said. "The reality is, I can't go and borrow it from a bank. I can't give it him back and he knows that as much as I do.

"The reality is, he's invested in this club and you can call it equity. It's not necessarily real debt in that sense, it's equity. Like any other business, to get it back he's got to either sell it or refinance it and the chances of refinancing a football club in a banking world are like zero.

"So in terms of refinancing it, it's a difficult situation. Eddie has given us no indication that that's the situation."

The Bolton chairman was then quizzed on the high level of the debt. In response, Gartside says other clubs would be envious of Wanderers' position, as a small percentage of their debt is owed to a bank and the club own all their own property - including land to develop on, such as the Middlebrook Masterplan, in the future.

"People didn't (raise eyebrows) about other foreign clubs, in the sense that how much money have other people got in real debt, in terms of bank debt," he said. "It's never raised by other clubs.

"This is an individual who's put money into a club, that's his club. When you look around the place, we've got a ground, a training ground, an academy, a hotel, property, we own all the surrounding land around it and we've got development land.

"We own that. We've got no debt on that land at all. These are Eddie's assets.

"We're sat in a stadium that we built 15 years ago that we don't have any borrowings against. We have a hotel next door that we don't. You've got to remember that these are substantial assets."

You can listen to the interview at the bottom of this link aswell.

http://www.burndenaces.co.uk/2014/01/12 ... about.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I don't think that Eddie will have lost out at all over this. If he was losing such a vast sum he would have wound it up years ago.

Winding up a club that thousands of people support and has been going for a century or more takes steel balls. Arguably you need to be somewhat sociopathic. I'm not denying it happens, but really infrequently considering football club debts - and then usually only by dreamers and schemers. Strikes me that Eddie isn't either of those, he's just a Bolton fan who got sweet-talked into investing, got swept along as we rose up, got persuaded to invest money, got theoretically reimbursed when the extended share issue made him the unarguable owner, but has been footing bills e'er since.

It would be interesting to see how much he got back if he did sell on (to the right hands), but I'd be surprised if it were the full£150m, let alone more. I don't think the Rich Lists actually count his BW investment as a positive (ie something he owns and is owed), because it's not a profitable concern.

The more worrying idea - not least for him - is death. You'd hope he'd have it in trust, so the uncaring rellies have a duty of care not to slash-and-burn a quick profit. That's what Jack Walker did, and while it's neither his fault nor particularly his Trust's that Venky's turned out so comically dangerous, it is also a warning about the greener grass.

Besides, if Eddie did wind up the club, what would he get back? Bit of land in Euxton for a few houses; bit more land near a motorway so you could sell to a retail speculator... but really, how many more sofa shops and shit bars would the Middlebrook be good for before you get diminishing returns?

[jaffka]

I don't think that Eddie will have lost out at all over this. If he was losing such a vast sum he would have wound it up years ago.

Winding up a club that thousands of people support and has been going for a century or more takes steel balls. Arguably you need to be somewhat sociopathic. I'm not denying it happens, but really infrequently considering football club debts - and then usually only by dreamers and schemers. Strikes me that Eddie isn't either of those, he's just a Bolton fan who got sweet-talked into investing, got swept along as we rose up, got persuaded to invest money, got theoretically reimbursed when the extended share issue made him the unarguable owner, but has been footing bills e'er since.

It would be interesting to see how much he got back if he did sell on (to the right hands), but I'd be surprised if it were the full£150m, let alone more. I don't think the Rich Lists actually count his BW investment as a positive (ie something he owns and is owed), because it's not a profitable concern.

The more worrying idea - not least for him - is death. You'd hope he'd have it in trust, so the uncaring rellies have a duty of care not to slash-and-burn a quick profit. That's what Jack Walker did, and while it's neither his fault nor particularly his Trust's that Venky's turned out so comically dangerous, it is also a warning about the greener grass.

Besides, if Eddie did wind up the club, what would he get back? Bit of land in Euxton for a few houses; bit more land near a motorway so you could sell to a retail speculator... but really, how many more sofa shops and shit bars would the Middlebrook be good for before you get diminishing returns?

So you think Eddie is on his arrse then?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Eh? Did you read anything I've just typed?

Eddie's worth about £90m-£100m. I don't think this includes BW (as assets or liabilities).

I also don't think he would try to get his money back by smashing the club to pieces and selling it piecemeal. I don't think it's in his character, and I don't think it's in his interest.

So no, I don't think he's skint, and I don't think he's expecting his money back soon unless someone buys the club in toto.

But unlike many, I am prepared to acknowledge that I may be proven wrong. Suppose we'll see in time. I remember when Gordon Hargreaves was the white knight...

[jaffka]

Eh? Did you read anything I've just typed?

Eddie's worth about £90m-£100m. I don't think this includes BW (as assets or liabilities).

I also don't think he would try to get his money back by smashing the club to pieces and selling it piecemeal. I don't think it's in his character, and I don't think it's in his interest.

So no, I don't think he's skint, and I don't think he's expecting his money back soon unless someone buys the club in toto.

But unlike many, I am prepared to acknowledge that I may be proven wrong. Suppose we'll see in time. I remember when Gordon Hargreaves was the white knight...

I did read but don't see anything apart from your opinion countering what I said.

Are you aware if eddies standard of living has changed? Because that is the salient point in what I typed.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Eh? Did you read anything I've just typed?

Eddie's worth about £90m-£100m. I don't think this includes BW (as assets or liabilities).

I also don't think he would try to get his money back by smashing the club to pieces and selling it piecemeal. I don't think it's in his character, and I don't think it's in his interest.

So no, I don't think he's skint, and I don't think he's expecting his money back soon unless someone buys the club in toto.

But unlike many, I am prepared to acknowledge that I may be proven wrong. Suppose we'll see in time. I remember when Gordon Hargreaves was the white knight...

I did read but don't see anything apart from your opinion countering what I said.

Are you aware if eddies standard of living has changed? Because that is the salient point in what I typed.

What you wrote was:

I don't think that Eddie will have lost out at all over this. If he was losing such a vast sum he would have wound it up years ago.

No, I don't personally know whether he's got more or fewer helicopters than a decade ago (do you?); however, over the last decade I've spent at FourFourTwo it's frequently been my responsibility to edit the Football Rich List, and his wealth has hovered at around £90m-£100m, never going up much, never going down much. Yes, we could all use a £10m upturn in our bank balance, but 10% is less noticeable, especially when much of the money is tied up in fluctuating markets. His has been one of the more stable fortunes.

You may say that Eddie's "standard of living" was the salient point in what you wrote, but my eye was more taken by the claim that "he would have wound it up years ago", which is what I was really answering - and, I would judge, the more salient ("prominent, conspicuous, or striking", according to my Collins) point you were making.

[BWFC_Insane]

Eh? Did you read anything I've just typed?

Eddie's worth about £90m-£100m. I don't think this includes BW (as assets or liabilities).

I also don't think he would try to get his money back by smashing the club to pieces and selling it piecemeal. I don't think it's in his character, and I don't think it's in his interest.

So no, I don't think he's skint, and I don't think he's expecting his money back soon unless someone buys the club in toto.

But unlike many, I am prepared to acknowledge that I may be proven wrong. Suppose we'll see in time. I remember when Gordon Hargreaves was the white knight...

I did read but don't see anything apart from your opinion countering what I said.

Are you aware if eddies standard of living has changed? Because that is the salient point in what I typed.

It is possible he's lost out though. I'd say pretty probable in fact. I doubt he's £150M down. But I'm sure he has put money in he won't see back bar raising the value of the club via off-field actitivities which seems unlikely at the minute.

But I'm sure Eddie has safeguarded a nice sum to live off and provide for his family. To an extent the money he puts in to ourselves and other businesses is probably entirely separate to his standard of living.

[jaffka]

Eh? Did you read anything I've just typed?

Eddie's worth about £90m-£100m. I don't think this includes BW (as assets or liabilities).

I also don't think he would try to get his money back by smashing the club to pieces and selling it piecemeal. I don't think it's in his character, and I don't think it's in his interest.

So no, I don't think he's skint, and I don't think he's expecting his money back soon unless someone buys the club in toto.

But unlike many, I am prepared to acknowledge that I may be proven wrong. Suppose we'll see in time. I remember when Gordon Hargreaves was the white knight...

I did read but don't see anything apart from your opinion countering what I said.

Are you aware if eddies standard of living has changed? Because that is the salient point in what I typed.

What you wrote was:

I don't think that Eddie will have lost out at all over this. If he was losing such a vast sum he would have wound it up years ago.

No, I don't personally know whether he's got more or fewer helicopters than a decade ago (do you?); however, over the last decade I've spent at FourFourTwo it's frequently been my responsibility to edit the Football Rich List, and his wealth has hovered at around £90m-£100m, never going up much, never going down much. Yes, we could all use a £10m upturn in our bank balance, but 10% is less noticeable, especially when much of the money is tied up in fluctuating markets. His has been one of the more stable fortunes.

You may say that Eddie's "standard of living" was the salient point in what you wrote, but my eye was more taken by the claim that "he would have wound it up years ago", which is what I was really answering - and, I would judge, the more salient ("prominent, conspicuous, or striking", according to my Collins) point you were making.

So from your own research you already knew the answer that it hasn't affected his a standard of living to the point where he would think 'this is going tits up and I will lose everything'.

When your head is that far up your own arse can you see daylight?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

When your head is that far up your own arse can you see daylight?

Classy.

[jaffka]

When your head is that far up your own arse can you see daylight?

Classy.

What do you do for a living again

[truewhite15]

Can't help but think there's been a slight over-reaction somewhere down the line here...

[a1]

its like "papers, please" in real life.

'cept, y'know , not based in the boarder immigration passport control place.

probably with the addition of excel spreadsheets.

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Summer 2014

[Lord Kangana]

I understand everything that has been said, I get it, but...

What if Eddie Davies, or his representatives, his family, or bloody debt collectors (I don't know, I'm just trying to understand who could have a claim on "the debt") call in "the debt"? Do we have a guarantee that it absolutely will not happen? Simple question. Not asking anything else.

If the answer is no, I will wait quietly on the sidelines for things to develop.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Garty say 10 years notice is required to call in the debt. He also says Eddie has no intention to. The first sounds possibly contractual, the 2nd not a guarantee. Aside from the interest he has earned, he wont be seeing much more of his money unless we get promoted (smirk) and don't spend. I think Eddie knows this.

[BWFC_Insane]

I understand everything that has been said, I get it, but...

What if Eddie Davies, or his representatives, his family, or bloody debt collectors (I don't know, I'm just trying to understand who could have a claim on "the debt") call in "the debt"? Do we have a guarantee that it absolutely will not happen? Simple question. Not asking anything else.

If the answer is no, I will wait quietly on the sidelines for things to develop.

I doubt that can be completely and utterly "guaranteed" under any circumstances. I guess it is more a question of likelihood of that happening and certainly the club are not going to disclose that and to be fair I doubt they or even Eddie know.

[boltonboris]

A pal of mine does a lot of work with BWFC. Built the training ground and is also working with them for the school thing they're building and some other redevelopments. He's also helping oversee the sale of Euxton (which should raise somewhere north of £50m) and the largening (is that a word?) of the Lostock ground.

Anyhow, he has numerous dealings with the board and in conversation was told about Davies' business partner, who holds the patent on the thermostat things they sell. He 'resides' in the Isle of Man. Except he doesn't 'reside' their at all... He's a bit of an eccentric, who has a £25m mansion in the middle of nowhere, which purely houses his rather large collection of antique grandfather clocks....