Full Steam Ahead to Orient (a) 10/08, 17:30

[BWFC_Insane]

You can fix almost anything in the market, eventually. What matters at the minute is what we can do this season, with this group.

It'll never be perfect and mistakes will be made, you just hope it's not multiple mistakes - as it was for the goal.

I agree. My point is that you won’t go up if basic mistakes, not just the goal but other things we see our defenders do, aren’t cut out. Some of this is systemic and may improve as we get better at playing it (or not if you think it’s beyond our abilities) but some of it is players who I think need what they are being asked to do simplifying down. The back three should only worry about keeping it out the goal. Block it, kick it, head it, get it away. I think they are capable of that but not of also simultaneously a lot of the other stuff demanded of them.

[GhostoftheBok]

We have to improve - both over last season and the first two games. No arguemnt.

[Worthy4England]

If you go back and watch that Kelman goal, Happe looked for that pass twice. The first time Kelman's run isn't on, so he goes back to the keeper to reset. Then the ball goes back out to Happe, he looks up, takes as many touches as he likes and then hits the pass.

Iredale was poor for it, but it's far too much time for the player in possession to do whatever he likes.

So it's bad in two ways. Dion isn't aggressive enough in the press and Iredale gets caught under the ball.

It's a good example of the point I'm making about the press. You can get away with one error, but not both.

Jack simply had a bad game and Kelman had a good one. We rightly subbed him off. Normally you don't concede that, but the part you can actually fix is the time the centre half gets to pick the pass.

Teams would just not bother with defenders if they could guarantee that the press stops the oppo 18 yards out from their goal. But we know that isn't going to occur, so we have defenders for when it doesn't...

You seem to be suggesting you can fix defending through the press, but not defending in the defence?

The two 6's probably aren't fixing that goal, the free header 6 yards out, the short corner etc. Our defending needs to improve.

I think the one where their guy runs 40 yards with it unchallenged before hitting the bar was another good example, sometimes you're going to lose the ball...

All looked a bit last year...

[GhostoftheBok]

You seem to be suggesting you can fix defending through the press, but not defending in the defence?

No, I'm suggesting that defending is a team issue.

[Worthy4England]

You seem to be suggesting you can fix defending through the press, but not defending in the defence?

No, I'm suggesting that defending is a team issue.

I don't disagree with that. How are we looking to solve the "free headers (from) and short corners" thing and the one where the defence back off a runner from HW to the edge of our box unchallenged? All of which occurred v Orient and quite often last season too!

[TANGODANCER]

I don't disagree with that. How are we looking to solve the "free headers (from) and short corners" thing and the one where the defence back off a runner from HW to the edge of our box unchallenged? All of which occurred v Orient and quite often last season too![/quote]

I have made these points, particularly the last one, several times, so have others, and it's so valid it kicks us in the short and curlies far too often . It needs addressing, not changing or refining. It's a blatantly wrong tactic and the boss man needs to admit it. Almost all the teams in our league defend with aggression; a wolf pack approach not a cinema usherette showing bodies politely where you want them. We need to forget about football without the ball and adopt the old selfish schoolboy approach of "If I can't be captain I'm taking my ball home!" If teams stop seeing Bolton as a soft touch, they might think twice about bullying us and help to curtail our injury situation.

Amen.

[BWFC_Insane]

You seem to be suggesting you can fix defending through the press, but not defending in the defence?

No, I'm suggesting that defending is a team issue.

I don't disagree with that. How are we looking to solve the "free headers (from) and short corners" thing and the one where the defence back off a runner from HW to the edge of our box unchallenged? All of which occurred v Orient and quite often last season too!

See Tuesday also.

[GhostoftheBok]

I don't disagree with that. How are we looking to solve the "free headers (from) and short corners" thing and the one where the defence back off a runner from HW to the edge of our box unchallenged? All of which occurred v Orient and quite often last season too!

I think saying "What about short corners?" in response to pointing out we will need to press better to defend in this system seems like being contrary for the point of it, to be honest.

Yes, if your defenders play badly and don't do the basics you will concede goals. Yes, you need to pick-up on set pieces.

But this is a bit like discussing how to create chances and you saying "But what if the strikers miss?"

Limiting chances for the opposition is one part. Defending when the opposition does get in is another.

[Worthy4England]

No sir, you pointed out that if we press better, then maybe the punt towards Iredale doesn't happen. I don't disagree and happy to make the press as good as it can be (understanding that the more we do up top the less we do at the back.

But when I'm generally talking about defending, still as a team, it's typically when they've broken the press, so we have to do shit in the middle or down our end. Three areas we've been weak at for the last two seasons, are.

Getting caught in transition, where they go somewhere in their half to generally the edge of our box, and I think that's why we're looking at 2 6's, one goes, one stays.

Corners, I've lost count of the number of times they get a free man, typically coming in from 18 yards out and getting the freedom on the city. If there has been a plan and players aren't doing their jobs, I'm not seeing much evidence of it improving or actually someone getting dropped.

Same with the short corners and those taken to the edge of the box. We just don't seem to react to them.

There's a "dead zone" about 18 yards out where it feels our lot are all mentally saying "whose guy is that?"

[GhostoftheBok]

But that's rather the point with saying that that's bound to happen when you switch the system.

I don't agree it's been 2 years.

Second half of 22/23 we kept 12 clean sheets from New Year. We conceded more than one goal in only 4 games. That was exactly half the season - matchdays 24-46.

We did that by restricting the transition to the wings and contracting defensively into the centre - as well as controlling the release of the ball in the final third better. That was a reaction to the sort of issues you are talking about existing in the first half of the season.

In the end we didn't commit enough bodies to attacking phases and it cost us goals.

Last season we made the decision to commit an additional man and that led to more goals, but more vulnerability.

If we want to commit the additional man we had to change the shape slightly, to allow the counter press to be more reactive and delay the transition. It'll hopefully change where we lose the ball and how quickly the opposition can react when we do.

It's an attempt to combine the latter half of 22/23's defensive solidity with our goalscoring from last season.

Individual errors and set pieces are another issue, but we are trying to fix that transitional issue tactically. It will take time.

The Orient goal was a press issue and then a really awful error. As a coach it's easier to fix the press and if you do then you reduce the number of times you have to defend.

Iredale is not the same player he was before his injury. He makes more errors and deals less well with physicality. I have no idea if we will recover his level. Same with Johnston. No idea whether he will get back to 100% of himself. If neither does we will be in bother.

[Worthy4England]

Thanks for the explanation. It was still happening (the same type of goals) in the second half of 22/23, just fewer times. Which I'm ok with as just like the press at the other end, you're not going to hit 100%. Occasionally you're going to get caught with a well worked corner to the apex (as we did against Wycombe in that second half of 22/23), a team is going to go from their half with multiple passes and not a single tackle from us, (as Derby did twice in the same game)...

[GhostoftheBok]

It was still happening (the same type of goals) in the second half of 22/23, just fewer times. Which I'm ok with as just like the press at the other end, you're not going to hit 100%.

Yes. That and the ball in behind the wide centre half are just natural vulnerabilities with how we play. You can minimise them, but can't really get rid of them.

We could change how we play, but then we'd have new issues in other areas.

One big one this season is likely to be the run inside to out, from the wing between Santos and the wide centre back. It caught us a lot in preseason and it's an issue with how we set up.

That's one we can only really combat with better individual performances or cutting out passing angles. When we push the wingback up it automatically drags the centre half wide and creates a gap.

I thought Santos did well to cover those gaps against Mansfield, but it may become the new "why does this keep happening?" goal.

[Worthy4England]

Agree with the one you mention. How can we pick up free headers in the box from dead ball better? That and the pull back corner feel like they should be fixable...

[BWFC_Insane]

It was still happening (the same type of goals) in the second half of 22/23, just fewer times. Which I'm ok with as just like the press at the other end, you're not going to hit 100%.

Yes. That and the ball in behind the wide centre half are just natural vulnerabilities with how we play. You can minimise them, but can't really get rid of them.

We could change how we play, but then we'd have new issues in other areas.

One big one this season is likely to be the run inside to out, from the wing between Santos and the wide centre back. It caught us a lot in preseason and it's an issue with how we set up.

That's one we can only really combat with better individual performances or cutting out passing angles. When we push the wingback up it automatically drags the centre half wide and creates a gap.

I thought Santos did well to cover those gaps against Mansfield, but it may become the new "why does this keep happening?" goal.

Why can’t we play a back four? The system that most teams this level will play that doesn’t expose centre halves to having to cover massive gaps and generally is an easier system to defend against a variety of styles?

Especially as the major modern perceived advantage of 3 at the back - a pair of strikers is no longer something we are doing.

[GhostoftheBok]

Why can’t we play a back four?

I'm not saying we can't play a back four, but that comes with its own issues, especially when it comes to marking individuals.

If you don't rate our defenders one-on-one then a back four seems like an odd suggestion. We play with a free man to attack the ball for a reason.

[GhostoftheBok]

How can we pick up free headers in the box from dead ball better?

Hard to say without being involved in the discussions.

I don't think we spend a lot of time on it in training and bandwidth is an issue. It really is an issue, though. I'd like to see us dramatically improve there, but if you don't do it on the training pitch it won't magically happen in games.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

It seems like...

We play in a convoluted way that requires players generally of a better standard that usual at this level. This means in order to get better players that we can't generally afford we buy the ones with 'issues'. Those issues frequently come to the fore and mean they can't reasonably consistently do certain things that to what many would call bread and butter stuff we aren't good at. The answer is to change the system to an equally convoluted system that presents another set of things we struggle to do with players that we can only afford because they have some issues.

In my business I have to make do and cut out the extraneous shit and focus resources into doing well at what we can do . Consistent delivery of the basics always out performs erratic genius over the long term. Surely it is easier and effective get the basics right and sprinkle a smaller amount of genius on top to make the difference?

[BWFC_Insane]

Why can’t we play a back four?

I'm not saying we can't play a back four, but that comes with its own issues, especially when it comes to marking individuals.

If you don't rate our defenders one-on-one then a back four seems like an odd suggestion. We play with a free man to attack the ball for a reason.

We have a back three. Notoriously they have gaps down the side.

A back four is an extra man and less gaps. Your centre halves deal with the striker or strikers and your full backs the wide attackers. Given most of our best seasons in the last 30 years were with a back 4 I don’t see the issue with one. Defensively they are considerably easier to manage. You reduce the issue of centre backs having to cover space.

[GhostoftheBok]

We play in a convoluted way that requires players generally of a better standard that usual at this level.

No, I don't think that's correct.

We play a system that demands technical players. We play 3-at-the-back partially because it allows us to play smaller, more technical mids - by putting an extra big guy at the back. Santos steps up to win headers and make tackles, which means we can play lads like Sheehan and Matete deeper.

I don't think we have a massively better set of players than the clubs that finished above us last season in Derby and Portsmouth. In fact, they both took players we wanted to improve us. The clubs below us had plenty of quality too. People are talking like we struggled, whereas what's happening is essentially the same as trying to move from being a CL-qualifying side to winning the Premier League. It's fine details.

We out-perform our budgets. Which is all you can really ask for. Thus far not enough to go up.

The only major failing we've had is the play-off final.

Every club that's been promoted has had a bigger budget than us over the 2-3 seasons prior to their promotion. Every single one (including Oxford).

We've used our money well and improved most of the players we've signed. We fell just short. Hopefully we go one better this time.

At this level and with our budgets you do have to make compromises on players, especially in the wider squad. Almost all clubs do that. People might be more comfortable if the compromises were worse technical players, in favour of big lads - but we finished 3rd. So what we are doing clearly delivers a lot of wins.

[GhostoftheBok]

We have a back three. Notoriously they have gaps down the side.

Every system has weaknesses that can be attacked.

When we were playing a 4 you were complaining about them too.