The cup that cheers.. E.F.L Away to Wrexham Tues Feb 11th 7-30.

[Prufrock]

The term "jack of all trades, a master of none" is perfect for a lot of our players - We seemed hell bent on one stage on buying utility players rather than specialists and we're paying for it now, with both results and finances

Yep agree with that. They're pretty much all good players now, not many in that squad I wouldn't say are at least L1. But few if any you'd say are nailed on Champo quality. Only really Collins, maybe Sheehan you'd say is exceptional at what they do, and they've both had to adapt to do something slightly different anyway. Few others with potential. Summer recruitment (both ways) is vital.

[irie Cee Bee]

I thought we played reasonably well but lacked the quality to get past a really tough hard to penetrate Parky Wrexham defense. Brings home the point that good teams are anchored by strong defenses. While most of us here are clamoring for #9s and #10s which we very much need, I am more pleased that we are looking more solid in defense. I would probably prefer in the future to see Murphy playing LCB instead of Johnson, and with Toal and Forrester, makes us more solid in a 3. Not sure how Santos fits in but I would be interested in seeing what Schuey thinks of him. Can he play effectively in a no nonsense 2 with Toal ?

Regarding up-front, we need pace which we don't have. This limits us. Nothing we can do about that until summer, so stop the goals. Then, if we score 1, we win.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

“The early part of the game, we kind of had to work out their 3-4-3 system,” said Phil Parkinson. “We didn’t expect them to play that way and it took a bit of time to get to grips with that."

Imagine being flexible and springing surprises....

[GhostoftheBok]

That's somewhat rounded down to make your point sound better, he's also got a goal or assist in 7 league matches and played in 28 of them? That's about 1 in 4. And if you're discounting league games he comes on as sub, then he loses 1 v Crawley and he's got a league goal or assist in 6 out of 17 starts which is pushing 1 in 3.

To give it some context Dan was on 5 out of 17 starts at Cambridge on the same basis...

Not really. His contributions work out to about 1 ever 190 minutes, which with injury time is about 1 in 2 every games in old money. It saves a lot of time to use starts, but I can start using minutes per contribution if you like - however last time I did you objected to that too.

[GhostoftheBok]

Just for further clarity, McAtee's per minute non-pen contributions this season are better than Dion managed in either of his full seasons with us.

So I'm clearly not rounding down to make anything sound better. He's a new player in a struggling team and is still contributing with good numbers. He needs to improve his general play, but then they all do; Evatt got sacked because we were bad. What's not remotely true is that Macca has been useless this season. If an attackers job is to make and score goals then he's been contributing very well in that area.

[Worthy4England]

That's somewhat rounded down to make your point sound better, he's also got a goal or assist in 7 league matches and played in 28 of them? That's about 1 in 4. And if you're discounting league games he comes on as sub, then he loses 1 v Crawley and he's got a league goal or assist in 6 out of 17 starts which is pushing 1 in 3.

To give it some context Dan was on 5 out of 17 starts at Cambridge on the same basis...

Not really. His contributions work out to about 1 ever 190 minutes, which with injury time is about 1 in 2 every games in old money. It saves a lot of time to use starts, but I can start using minutes per contribution if you like - however last time I did you objected to that too.

I'd be a bit surprised if I objected to mins per contribution - unless it was in the context of "yeah but if they're only on the pitch for 10 minutes every 10 games, it's a bit of a dumb stat."

I mean 1 every 190 minutes sounds decent, but if he has 2 events in one game, it's still only altering one game, not two - Dan N'lundulu is at 235 on the same basis - for Cambridge who've only scored 30! If you weighted Dan's vs team goals and McAtee on our team goals at 47, is there much of a difference? Alfie may is on about 100. Yup that's for Brum (rolleyes) but he was only on about 133 at Cheltenham.

We can stat each other to death, but I have the feeling he's not working as well as we envisaged when we spunked dosh on him, nor that the team has worked very well since we bought both him and Collins...

Another bit in a bag of bits.

[BWFC_Insane]

For the money we spent on McAtee we should be getting either prime John McGinlay like goal return or prime Dapo quality.

The fact is we are miles off either. The problem I think we have is we’ve spent money on the wrong profiles and wrong ages. There is no value in lower league lads in their mid twenties. You are basically getting someone who is as good as they will be - maybe has already peaked or had their good season and the realistic chance to make them significantly better has gone. If they were as good as you want them to be - it would be very very very difficult to sign them from a league one club at all.

McAtee is a classic case in point. Nothing in his track record suggested he was a particularly great option. A solitary season at Barnsley where he got into double figures is not to me saying ‘yes we are getting the next big thing here’. A decent player but we paid too much money for that.

Either we need to go for older but have played a higher level and possess more quality or younger and find the unearthed gems we can develop.

Pick up the Cogley’s and their types on frees and low fees. But paying the sort of money we have for players who let’s face it were at their peak decent league one players was never a good plan. Unless we managed to judge it so we built the absolute perfect complimentary team.

[GhostoftheBok]

I mean 1 every 190 minutes sounds decent, but if he has 2 events in one game, it's still only altering one game, not two

We can stat each other to death, but I have the feeling he's not working as well as we envisaged when we spunked dosh on him, nor that the team has worked very well since we bought both him and Collins...

Another bit in a bag of bits.

On the first bit, same with any attacker. Dion scored a hattrick and several pens one season, which covered-up for the fact he doesn't score often enough from open play to be your primary striker. His game was built on work rate and once that faded he became pretty useless - as Huddersfield are finding out.

Macca has been better than Dion this season, but not good enough as yet.

It is a bag of bits, but that's now on Schumacher to sort out. Its a bag of very high quality bits for the level and he should be able to make something out of most of them, given proper time.

Last season Macca had a good time - his general play was good, his pressing was just about the best in the division and he scored or assisted about every 160 minutes he was on the pitch.

Similarly Joel Randall was at about GA per-90 of 0.5, which for an attacking midfielder is top end.

Collins put up similar numbers last season to Macca.

That doesn't mean all of them can play in the same 11 effectively. If Schumacher can make that happen, amazing. They all tend to stay fit, so it's a good start to a winning side. What it is is a collection of players who can, in the right system, win you games.

What you don't do is write players off after 6 months in a dodgy side, especially when they are scoring and creating goals.

McAtee is 25 and signed a 3 year deal. He's arrived at a time of upheaval. Everyone needs to chill out a bit and allow the new gaffer time to work. Same goes for calls being made on Joel Randall after half a dozen games during which the guy who signed him has left.

[Bertie Wooster]

McAtee should have been a certain starter for the money we paid, a club like us can't afford to pay around £1M for a substitute. The fact that he isn't a certain / regular starter says it all for me. I want the lad to do well and influence games, but to date he hasn't really made an impact at all.

Schumacher has a hell of a job this summer changing this squad into a potential automatic promotion level squad, at the moment IMO we are a team / squad that will probably finish 7th or 8th this season. He's probably going to have to somehow bring in 4 or 5 certain 1st team starters who will significantly improve us either by experience, physicality or pace.

[GhostoftheBok]

For the money we spent on McAtee we should be getting either prime John McGinlay like goal return or prime Dapo quality.

Why?

Wrexham just spent over £2m and £15k a week in wages to get in a striker with the same return this season McAtee got last.

Why should we be getting more for less than half the money?

[GhostoftheBok]

McAtee should have been a certain starter for the money we paid

He should be a fairly regular starter.

We've signed Collins, Macca and Randall who - after Schumacher gets a full window - are unlikely to all start in the same team.

There are enough games in a season for them all to start 30+ times.

[TANGODANCER]

For the money we spent on McAtee we should be getting either prime John McGinlay like goal return or prime Dapo quality.

Why?

Wrexham just spent over £2m and £15k a week in wages to get in a striker with the same return this season McAtee got last.

Why should we be getting more for less than half the money?

This. There are no guarantees in football and nobody is 100% great every game. Same with Randall, he's a gifted player who hasn't yet pushed the right buttons; I think he will given a bit of time. A fit Dempsey could also have a big plus factor. Win on Saturday and life will look much better.

[GhostoftheBok]

It can't be the case that any player we sign for a decent fee has to instantly be one of the best players we've had outside the Premier League, or they're written off.

It's completely unhinged.

[Bertie Wooster]

It can't be the case that any player we sign for a decent fee has to instantly be one of the best players we've had outside the Premier League, or they're written off.

It's completely unhinged.

They should at least improve us and make us a better team should they not ?

[GhostoftheBok]

They should at least improve us and make us a better team should they not ?

Absolutely. They should all be offering both numbers and good general play.

What I don't think is fair is expecting that in the last 6 months, as the Evatt-era collapsed around them.

They have a new manager now and we have to give him and this group time.

That's what people said they'd do when Evatt got sacked, but it's already as toxic as ever from the usual suspects online. It's Schumacher's 3rd game.

[BWFC_Insane]

For the money we spent on McAtee we should be getting either prime John McGinlay like goal return or prime Dapo quality.

Why?

Wrexham just spent over £2m and £15k a week in wages to get in a striker with the same return this season McAtee got last.

Why should we be getting more for less than half the money?

Frankly I don’t really care what Wrexham do but if you really want to do that….

Smith cost Wrexham £2M in fee. Let’s say roughly double what Mcatee cost, give or take.

Smith is just one year older. Prior to signing for Wrexham he has 54 league one goals to his name. 54. Double figures in four seasons at this level.

McAtee before joining us had 12, year 12 league one goals in his career, all in one season.

I don’t think Smith for £2M was good value and not sure I’d look to Wrexham for examples of good value deals. They have money to spend we don’t. But a relevant goal return 4.5 times that of the player we bought probably doesn’t help the example.

If Bolton are spending that sort of money on a striker they need to be a lot better than McAtee. That’s for sure.

[Bertie Wooster]

They should at least improve us and make us a better team should they not ?

Absolutely. They should all be offering both numbers and good general play.

What I don't think is fair is expecting that in the last 6 months, as the Evatt-era collapsed around them.

They have a new manager now and we have to give him and this group time.

That's what people said they'd do when Evatt got sacked, but it's already as toxic as ever from the usual suspects online. It's Schumacher's 3rd game.

Wow that's a bit dramatic ! It's not as toxic as ever, almost everyone likes Schumacher and are fully behind him and anything achieved this season will be a pleasant bonus, with many (me included) not expecting us to make the play-offs - everyone is looking forward to seeing what he does in the summer to enable the club to have a real go next season, and everyone also knows what a tough task he will have turning this around in one summer window.

This is more about some current players who we have spent decent money on that some feel are not good enough for a team with promotion aspirations (next season) i.e. Vic, McAtee.

[GhostoftheBok]

Wow that's a bit dramatic ! It's not as toxic as ever, almost everyone likes Schumacher

This is more about some current players who we have spent decent money on that some feel are not good enough for a team with promotion aspirations (next season) i.e. Vic, McAtee.

I meant specifically around the players.

[BWFC_Insane]

Wow that's a bit dramatic ! It's not as toxic as ever, almost everyone likes Schumacher

This is more about some current players who we have spent decent money on that some feel are not good enough for a team with promotion aspirations (next season) i.e. Vic, McAtee.

I meant specifically around the players.

Questioning what we’ve spent on players and accepting that some haven’t really worked out for the fees paid is not toxic.

[GhostoftheBok]

Questioning what we’ve spent on players and accepting that some haven’t really worked out for the fees paid is not toxic.

No, it's not. People saying they want Santos' injury to be career ending and wishing it had been Vic, rather than the Wrexham lad, in a car crash is.