Shut the Gate, our horse has bolted - Bristol C (A) 19/03/16

[BWFC_Insane]

Feeney was limited but a trier. He produced a good number of assists and goals.

Mark Davies has all the talent in the world but can't be arsed and has produced nowt.

That is the distinction.

Mark Davies could a decent player - but, c'mon - he does NOT have all the talent in the world!

It is an expression. It doesn't have to be taken literally. He has a lot more talent than he has shown this season, that is for sure.

[thebish]

Feeney was limited but a trier. He produced a good number of assists and goals.

Mark Davies has all the talent in the world but can't be arsed and has produced nowt.

That is the distinction.

Mark Davies could a decent player - but, c'mon - he does NOT have all the talent in the world!

It is an expression. It doesn't have to be taken literally. He has a lot more talent than he has shown this season, that is for sure.

no - not even taking it literally - it is an expression - yes - I accept that - but it doesn't really describe mark davies... he might have had shining moments at Bolton - but that's in the context of Bolton... I see no evidence for claiming he has all the talent in the world - which is surely an expression meant for someone with truly exceptional talent... MD flatters to deceive... (IMHO)

[BWFC_Insane]

Feeney was limited but a trier. He produced a good number of assists and goals.

Mark Davies has all the talent in the world but can't be arsed and has produced nowt.

That is the distinction.

Mark Davies could a decent player - but, c'mon - he does NOT have all the talent in the world!

It is an expression. It doesn't have to be taken literally. He has a lot more talent than he has shown this season, that is for sure.

no - not even taking it literally - it is an expression - yes - I accept that - but it doesn't really describe mark davies... he might have had shining moments at Bolton - but that's in the context of Bolton... I see no evidence for claiming he has all the talent in the world - which is surely an expression meant for someone with truly exceptional talent... MD flatters to deceive... (IMHO)

Mine too. But I've seen him run the odd top flight game. His problem is clearly application rather than lack of ability. Which to me makes it all the more frustrating.

[elhadj]

hello bolton fans .


this is the start of a new era for bolton , this is a rebuilding time for bolton so for me , no rachubka no davies no pratley no moxey no madine , give the youngster player a chance and play the ball in ground why player keep playing long ball to madine , they can't see that bristol defender own him all the game , i like tom walker and woolery but they still need some time , give lussey and cvetko and thomas and smazdieh and fitzimois and finney and maher and all other player in under 21 a chance and maybe we will play like a team at least in last 8 games .

i have a plan for next season , bring kevin davies and put him as assistant manager for any manager who will be appointed , bring back ricardo gardner and jasskelainen and kevin nolan , because this player who knows what is mean to play for bolton shirt but gardner in any role and if jasskelainen not retired next season bring him as player coach to learn his son and watch him closely and give advised to become a top goalkeeper , nolan bring him back as player manager and give him the second assistant manager , and if holdsworth can bring back campo to teach young player it will be a great idea , we have to bring back hayden white and threkled and give him a chance to play threkled already being a fantastic player for plymoth and the fans praise him .

good luck holdswotrth in your rebuilding plan .

[BWFC_Insane]

I think there are 2 issues. 1) We've paid way too much for players, especially in terms of wages. This will I think be addressed now by necessity.

2) The players we have, even overpaid, have on the whole underperformed. We've not been able to coax performances out of them.

Aside from the early Lennon spell and Freedman's run to 7th, I think we've underperformed on the whole.

The two spells showed that there is something here, but in both cases we reverted to shit pretty soon after. Players like Trotter and Spearing seemed better after going elsewhere. But the question is why is that? What is it about Bolton that drags players down so far and leaves them shadows of their former selves, needing loans to get back to something approaching form?

[Worthy4England]

^^ I could see that maybe with the odd player here and there - but I'd never have accused Wheater of technique and finesse...If you look at our players with Prem experience who played on Saturday - Wheater, Moxey, Davies, Pratley and Vela (limited), you'd probably only argue that maybe Mavies was in the technique and finesse bracket. You'd probably have the other four in the "grit and determined" group...but clearly not showing it.

[Dr Hotdog]

Has Captain Fantastic Pratley finished sticking his two fingers up at the press and the doubters yet? Pathetic waster. Did you see the fifth goal? The wet bastard.

[Tombwfc]

Also I'm not sure I subscribe to the theory that the players as a whole aren't good enough.

We have more than enough players who have had very solid seasons in this league or even higher in the past.

Up front is the weak department. Though Madine may have been more use if he'd applied himself rather than sulking his way along.

But Moxey, Wilson, Dervite, Trotter, Pratley, Spearing, Feeney, Wheater, Davies... Surely there is enough there to suggest better than 4 wins. With a few youngsters added in. On paper at the very least that is better than bottom in my view.

I asked this the other day - when was the last time one of our players had a really good season - as one of the better players in a good team - at this level or above?

Henrik Pedersen played left back for us when we were in the top half of the Premier League, but that doesn't mean that if you stuck him in a side at the bottom of the Championship he'd have stood out as being a class above. He had better players around him to cover up the gaping flaws in his game.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make a good team with some of these players involved - put Messi and Ronaldo up front and we'll be fine - but I do believe it's impossible to make a good team using all of them.

[Jugs]

Feeney was limited but a trier. He produced a good number of assists and goals.

Mark Davies has all the talent in the world but can't be arsed and has produced nowt.

That is the distinction.

Mark Davies could a decent player - but, c'mon - he does NOT have all the talent in the world!

It is an expression. It doesn't have to be taken literally. He has a lot more talent than he has shown this season, that is for sure.

no - not even taking it literally - it is an expression - yes - I accept that - but it doesn't really describe mark davies... he might have had shining moments at Bolton - but that's in the context of Bolton... I see no evidence for claiming he has all the talent in the world - which is surely an expression meant for someone with truly exceptional talent... MD flatters to deceive... (IMHO)

A few signings down the years (as well as managers) have commented on how special Mark Davies is in training.

"I'd heard about him, but didn't realise he was that good."

Coyle even compared him to the mercurial Gazza at one point.

Davies has got an abundance of talent, and we've seen it in the past. Unfortunately, whether it's through his ill-luck with injuries, lack of inspiring teammates next to him, being played out of position, or sheer apathy, we haven't seen the best of him.

But in my mind, he's a very special player on his day who hasn't harnessed his potential (or maybe it's we who haven't got the best out of him).

His debut v Spurs is still the best debut I've seen.

[Bruce Rioja]

Just watched the highlights through my fingers. Rachubka appealing for offside on their sixth. Yep, that where it was won and lost, mate

[BWFC_Insane]

Also I'm not sure I subscribe to the theory that the players as a whole aren't good enough.

We have more than enough players who have had very solid seasons in this league or even higher in the past.

Up front is the weak department. Though Madine may have been more use if he'd applied himself rather than sulking his way along.

But Moxey, Wilson, Dervite, Trotter, Pratley, Spearing, Feeney, Wheater, Davies... Surely there is enough there to suggest better than 4 wins. With a few youngsters added in. On paper at the very least that is better than bottom in my view.

I asked this the other day - when was the last time one of our players had a really good season - as one of the better players in a good team - at this level or above?

Henrik Pedersen played left back for us when we were in the top half of the Premier League, but that doesn't mean that if you stuck him in a side at the bottom of the Championship he'd have stood out as being a class above. He had better players around him to cover up the gaping flaws in his game.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make a good team with some of these players involved - put Messi and Ronaldo up front and we'll be fine - but I do believe it's impossible to make a good team using all of them.

Could the same question not be asked of Preston or Bristol City or MK Dons etc?

[TANGODANCER]

Mark Davies. Not seen him anywhere near as much as the rest of you, but..surely a very special talent takes in an application factor, ie using that talent? At 28 he should be absolutely on top of his game and career. Only two things can be his problem: he's either not utilising said talent (which includes a 90 minute attitude to games, laziness or not being fully fit) or those around him are so bad that he's not being supported and he would be a lot better with better team mates. There is one thing in his make up not being mentioned; he's a liability at tackling and gives away free kicks in bad areas. ( okay, so was Paul Scholes, but what he did otherwise, being in the right places and ever willing to take the ball and use it well, more than made up for that). Effectively, with his supposed talents, Mark Davies should be a Xavi, Iniesta, David Silva, type player. That, he certainly isn't.

[Tombwfc]

Also I'm not sure I subscribe to the theory that the players as a whole aren't good enough.

We have more than enough players who have had very solid seasons in this league or even higher in the past.

Up front is the weak department. Though Madine may have been more use if he'd applied himself rather than sulking his way along.

But Moxey, Wilson, Dervite, Trotter, Pratley, Spearing, Feeney, Wheater, Davies... Surely there is enough there to suggest better than 4 wins. With a few youngsters added in. On paper at the very least that is better than bottom in my view.

I asked this the other day - when was the last time one of our players had a really good season - as one of the better players in a good team - at this level or above?

Henrik Pedersen played left back for us when we were in the top half of the Premier League, but that doesn't mean that if you stuck him in a side at the bottom of the Championship he'd have stood out as being a class above. He had better players around him to cover up the gaping flaws in his game.

I'm not saying it's impossible to make a good team with some of these players involved - put Messi and Ronaldo up front and we'll be fine - but I do believe it's impossible to make a good team using all of them.

Could the same question not be asked of Preston or Bristol City or MK Dons etc?

Not really. It's kind of the opposite of what I was saying. The level you're playing at is less important than how you played at that level, and how much of a difference you made to that team. In those three team's cases, they've still got the players who were among the best in their team and their division last season.

[Bruce Rioja]

put Messi and Ronaldo up front and we'll be fine

Are we not back to Veloso, tiaras and dray horses here?

[KeyserSoze]

Watched it in some bar in Manhattan, a sole bolton representative among four or five Bristolians. Their polite needling at half time turned to open pity by the time the sixth went in.

I don't see us much these days, but that HAS to be the worst performance of the season, if not for many seasons. If it isn't, then...christ.

[BWFC_Insane]

Not really. It's kind of the opposite of what I was saying. The level you're playing at is less important than how you played at that level, and how much of a difference you made to that team. In those three team's cases, they've still got the players who were among the best in their team and their division last season.

I'm not quite sure on the logic. We should just sign the best players in non league football because they will be better than those already proven (but not outstanding) at league one level?

Also relegated teams from the premiership would almost always shit out on that logic as mostly they will have few players who made a difference to their team that last season.

When Preston came here I didn't see outstanding individuals. I saw a team who all worked their socks off for each other for 90 minutes who broadly played percentage football. There was little magical about what they did. They defended in numbers when required, broke well and supplied balls into the box instead of passing it sideways. That was without their (arguably) star striker Beckford who scored 18 for them last season from November onwards. Another case in point actually....

[Worthy4England]

^^ I could see that maybe with the odd player here and there - but I'd never have accused Wheater of technique and finesse...If you look at our players with Prem experience who played on Saturday - Wheater, Moxey, Davies, Pratley and Vela (limited), you'd probably only argue that maybe Mavies was in the technique and finesse bracket. You'd probably have the other four in the "grit and determined" group...but clearly not showing it.

Fair point, but I'd say that Moxey is quite good when going forward. Until recently I've actually found him to look more comfortable going forwards than defending. And I'm now being more subjective, but I've long said that Pratley and Wheater simply aren't cut out for football at Championship level. Even when he was at Middlesbrough I thought he was slow, lacking agility and a calamity waiting to happen. It was more a broad statement of needing more players like Feeney, and fewer like Mavies and Pratley (for different reasons there mind).

But we come back to my original point of maybe we're not actually that good on paper. I've had this discussion with someone on here before, I think last season, with me saying that despite this "on paper" reputation that some of our players have, evidence suggests the opposite. Again being subjective, and I know it's easier to sit back and criticise than suggesting a solution, but I've said for a year or two now that our squad as a whole aren't good enough as they've shown for multiple seasons. If they were we wouldn't be in our current situation, and we'd have had far more suitors for our players over the transfer windows. All this talk about being "good on paper" has never really sat properly with me; in my opinion what shows on paper are tangible stats like goals, key passes/assists, tackles etc. Very few, possibly none, of our team in this respect can be claimed to be "good on paper" - and it's been that way since relegation. All of our good, consistent performers have tended to be loanees.

Well yes - you're only as good as your last decent performance etc. So I'm with you that the squad wasn't good enough for the Prem the year we went down - although for bedevilment, I might have suggested my gran could run it in the Prem coz Coyle was so shit. Yet it was getting paid as the 14th highest team in England. If you look at our last "safe" season in the Prem (2010/2011). Our 1st team was (based on starts)

Jussi

Steinsson/Cahill/Knight/Robinson

Holden/Chungy/Muamba/Taylor

SKD/Elmander

And around that we wrapped Sturridge, Klasnic, Petrov, Ricketts etc.

Move on 12 months - recognising that folks were complaining about Steinsson, Knight, Taylor, Elmander, Robinson and probably SKD as being "not up to it", we then rolled out

Bogdan

Steinsson/Ricketts Knight/Ream/Ricketts/Cahill/Wheater Boyata/Robinson

Reo Coker, Petrov, Mavies, Eagles

N'gog, SKD


The later team of the two, you'd pretty much say - At least 3 defensive positions not good enough for the Prem, all the midfield positions not good enough for Prem (I think Eagles might have been PoTY that season), the forward line not good enough for the Prem (in SKD's case just because of age and Klasnic because of limited ability to start)

So a marginally Championship level team - that then got a lot weaker...

[BWFC_Insane]

Also relegated teams from the premiership would almost always shit out on that logic as mostly they will have few players who made a difference to their team that last season.

I wouldn't quite go that far, but the list of teams who have struggled to get back into the premier league is somewhat longer than those who have "successfully" rebounded within a season or two. I'm at work so won't be digging up stats but off the top of my head QPR, Wolves, Leeds, Blackburn, Cardiff, Birmingham, Reading, Fulham have all struggled to re-establish themselves following relegation. And there's those who outright imploded in Bradford, Coventry and Portsmouth. Your Norwichs, Southamptons and West Hams are more the exception. So I'd say that a "premier league" level side isn't necessarily cut out for the Championship, which is why you get the old belief that it's a very tough league to get out of. Also as a slight tangent, is it just me or are there far fewer "yo-yo" sides than there used to be in the 90s and early 00s?

.

I think it is especially hard financially if you've been well established in the premiership to come down. You have to shed your wages but often lose the players you'd rather keep.

Also there is the mental scarring from relegation. Burnley I guess are the archetypal yo-yo side now. Used to be West Brom. They both have in common that they didn't overstretch in the premiership and almost tried to continually build a stronger side for the next championship season for a while.

The championship is tough right now because as well as being very physically and mentally challenging week on week (there aren't many easy games, unless you're playing BWFC...) there is a gulf in spending power being established. I suppose the difference to the premiership is that the big spenders there tend to keep spending whereas, what will Middlesbrough do if they don't go up? Splash yet more cash?

[jonnycooper]

We also seem to have had better periods when we have had Championship level loan players brought in!! Juke/ ALF/ Mason and Craig Dawson,

[Worthy4England]

Also relegated teams from the premiership would almost always shit out on that logic as mostly they will have few players who made a difference to their team that last season.

I wouldn't quite go that far, but the list of teams who have struggled to get back into the premier league is somewhat longer than those who have "successfully" rebounded within a season or two. I'm at work so won't be digging up stats but off the top of my head QPR, Wolves, Leeds, Blackburn, Cardiff, Birmingham, Reading, Fulham have all struggled to re-establish themselves following relegation. And there's those who outright imploded in Bradford, Coventry and Portsmouth. Your Norwichs, Southamptons and West Hams are more the exception. So I'd say that a "premier league" level side isn't necessarily cut out for the Championship, which is why you get the old belief that it's a very tough league to get out of. Also as a slight tangent, is it just me or are there far fewer "yo-yo" sides than there used to be in the 90s and early 00s?

.

I think it is especially hard financially if you've been well established in the premiership to come down. You have to shed your wages but often lose the players you'd rather keep.

Also there is the mental scarring from relegation. Burnley I guess are the archetypal yo-yo side now. Used to be West Brom. They both have in common that they didn't overstretch in the premiership and almost tried to continually build a stronger side for the next championship season for a while.

The championship is tough right now because as well as being very physically and mentally challenging week on week (there aren't many easy games, unless you're playing BWFC...) there is a gulf in spending power being established. I suppose the difference to the premiership is that the big spenders there tend to keep spending whereas, what will Middlesbrough do if they don't go up? Splash yet more cash?

Based on nowt particularly concrete, for some reason, I still think with decent management, the squad we had at the start of this season shouldn't be in a "cut adrift" position. The signings we did make in summer were generally fcking awful. I have some sympathy with Lennon - I'm not at all convinced any fcker on the board clearly identified his overall spending/transfer budget so he's gone out and got squad fillers and every "big" signing got stretched to deadline day, then knocked back, leaving just the squad fillers in all but a couple of cases (like Amos). Those signing who weren't squad fillers ain't set the world alight though.

That said our wage bill currently, which is allegedly near £10m (ish) is one of the smallest in the division - bottom quarter - and it's clear it's weighted in all the wrong places.