Watford away

[BWFC_Insane]

I also last season kept pointing out what happened to the likes of Coventry, Southampton, Leeds etc upon premiership relegation.

I believe you repeatedly told me to stop being so miserable, and how going down wouldn't be so bad, if it happened.

and I still believe that. I think staying up would have simply led to us getting relegated this season but being even more broke as we desperately spunked cash trying to stay on the merry-go-round - and the rebuilding would have been a year behind schedule.

as for you pointing out coventry and leeds et al., you were also saying we had an ace premiership squad (who you now say are all totally shoite) who should bounce back immediately... this predicting thing is easy if you predict all possible scenarios...

like Betty - I think we really just need to stop the hysteria and the hyperbole and keep our nerve - it's going to be ups and downs for a while yet. an up won't mean dougie is God and a down won't mean he should be sacked.

We are not exactly on a different page though are we?

I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

We need to move forwards but plenty on here who say they don't like Dougie cos he is inexperienced or 'wet behind the ears' also at the time said they didn't want McCarthy.

Being fair to BL3 he said at the time he wanted Mick......

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

If only points could be won as easily as folks try to score them on here.

A question: who on here went yesterday? I didn't, so it's not oneupmanship, but I suspect that those who did might feel more positive than those of us tuning in from afar: that horrible lack of information (despite Tango's selfless textual updates, thanks again), that fear, that suspicion. Watching via 21st-century Ceefax only encourages the darker thoughts all fans possess: worthlessness, fear, anger, division.

Not that that stops us being at the wrong end of this division, or the numbers from adding up to poor form (quantitatively unarguable even if qualitatively debatable). For what it's worth, from the footage I've seen, Ream lost us the first goal - leading to some ugly ToldYouSo on here (well done, here's a biscuit) - while the second seemed to me to be a failure of the defensive midfield pairing: the scorer lurked in acres on the box edge because Spearing had been perhaps unnecessarily drawn to a ball surrounded by his team-mates while Vela was somewhere out of picture.

Changes will be made; the usual Freedman-fitness caveats aside, I'll be surprised if Ream starts rather than Dawson, and we'll soon have better competition for places among the central midfield trio. I still hope and think we'll be fine, but I'm not unaware of the possibility of relegation. I think it's foolish to imagine anyone is.

[thebish]

I also last season kept pointing out what happened to the likes of Coventry, Southampton, Leeds etc upon premiership relegation.

I believe you repeatedly told me to stop being so miserable, and how going down wouldn't be so bad, if it happened.

and I still believe that. I think staying up would have simply led to us getting relegated this season but being even more broke as we desperately spunked cash trying to stay on the merry-go-round - and the rebuilding would have been a year behind schedule.

as for you pointing out coventry and leeds et al., you were also saying we had an ace premiership squad (who you now say are all totally shoite) who should bounce back immediately... this predicting thing is easy if you predict all possible scenarios...

like Betty - I think we really just need to stop the hysteria and the hyperbole and keep our nerve - it's going to be ups and downs for a while yet. an up won't mean dougie is God and a down won't mean he should be sacked.

We are not exactly on a different page though are we?

I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

We need to move forwards but plenty on here who say they don't like Dougie cos he is inexperienced or 'wet behind the ears' also at the time said they didn't want McCarthy.

Being fair to BL3 he said at the time he wanted Mick......

I didn't say we were on a different page!

I think there is a difference between saying that dougie hasn't yet delivered all we hoped for and "not liking dougie" - it's just not as black an white as you often portray it!! you may have realised now that this is what irritates me (perhaps more than it should!) You used to say that bad performances were ALL the manager's fault - the buck stops there - it's his job to make it work - the players are controlled by the manager etc... NOW you seem to be saying it is ALL the players fault and dougie is doing all he possibly can and can't really be faulted.

truth is (surely) it is always a bit of both!! it was under Coyle and it is under Freedman. Nor is it all basically all Ream's fault or ever one player's fault... it's just never that black or white. The squad ISN'T all shoite so that we should bin the lot of them NOR are they all ace and guaranteed to storm the league under a manager with half a clue. it's somewhere in between - it's greyer than that!!!

grey - that's the watchword - GREY - have i said it enough - shades of Grey!!! (more than 50 of them!)

[thebish]

If only points could be won as easily as folks try to score them on here.

well... I've totted it up...

I'm currently point-scoring at 1.573ppg
BWFCi very close at 1.579ppg (showing progress in the right direction)
BL3 at 2.76ppg (but only on games we lose)
DSB 1ppg (but that one being a very good point as usual!)

[BWFC_Insane]

I also last season kept pointing out what happened to the likes of Coventry, Southampton, Leeds etc upon premiership relegation.

I believe you repeatedly told me to stop being so miserable, and how going down wouldn't be so bad, if it happened.

and I still believe that. I think staying up would have simply led to us getting relegated this season but being even more broke as we desperately spunked cash trying to stay on the merry-go-round - and the rebuilding would have been a year behind schedule.

as for you pointing out coventry and leeds et al., you were also saying we had an ace premiership squad (who you now say are all totally shoite) who should bounce back immediately... this predicting thing is easy if you predict all possible scenarios...

like Betty - I think we really just need to stop the hysteria and the hyperbole and keep our nerve - it's going to be ups and downs for a while yet. an up won't mean dougie is God and a down won't mean he should be sacked.

We are not exactly on a different page though are we?

I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

We need to move forwards but plenty on here who say they don't like Dougie cos he is inexperienced or 'wet behind the ears' also at the time said they didn't want McCarthy.

Being fair to BL3 he said at the time he wanted Mick......

I didn't say we were on a different page!

I think there is a difference between saying that dougie hasn't yet delivered all we hoped for and "not liking dougie" - it's just not as black an white as you often portray it!! you may have realised now that this is what irritates me (perhaps more than it should!) You used to say that bad performances were ALL the manager's fault - the buck stops there - it's his job to make it work - the players are controlled by the manager etc... NOW you seem to be saying it is ALL the players fault and dougie is doing all he possibly can and can't really be faulted.

truth is (surely) it is always a bit of both!! it was under Coyle and it is under Freedman. Nor is it all basically all Ream's fault or ever one player's fault... it's just never that black or white. The squad ISN'T all shoite so that we should bin the lot of them NOR are they all ace and guaranteed to storm the league under a manager with half a clue. it's somewhere in between - it's greyer than that!!!

grey - that's the watchword - GREY - have i said it enough - shades of Grey!!! (more than 50 of them!)

I'm not in disagreement.

But be fair, I think the failings we experienced were fair enough to lay at Coyles door considering how long he'd been here. Sure each defeat was only a symptom of that and yes there are always multiple causes and reasons but the ultimate responsibility lay with him.

Freedman isn't there yet, not in my book. Of course he has to take responsibility and fix things. And if he doesn't pay the price.

And Ream was again a symptom of our mentally weak players yesterday. But a problem nonetheless.

We are sadly now more like a Todd team than an Allardyce one and that is very scary. I hope that Dougie can change this. At least, and I do mean least, he recognises the issues instead of seemingly being unaware.

[onlywanderer]

I went yesterday and thought over all we were bloody unlucky. Best I've seen us play in a long while. We had an obvious shape, we were organised (the starting back four going over organisation drills during the warm up was a welcome sight). The players were all working their nuts off (Spearing and Pratley in particular) and you could see what we were trying to do. I thought Vela struggled, Chris Eagles looked knackered from the start, and Ream tries hard and looks a whole lot better, but is still a liability at times.

In my opinion we were a stronger centre back and an inform Eagles away from winning that game.

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Thanks for that, OW - and applause for thebish's points system...!

[BL3]

I'm clearly referring to the constant oscillation among fans between "woohoo, we're great, Dougie's great, we're going to push for the play-offs" after a win and "we're shit, we're doomed, we're going down and the club's going into administration" after a defeat.

I'll have to take your word for it. I can't remember that far back.

[BL3]

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

The club is going in a downwards direction at the moment. Was that the direction you were referring to?

[jaffka]

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

The club is going in a downwards direction at the moment. Was that the direction you were referring to?

How does the club stop the decline?

[jaffka]

I'm clearly referring to the constant oscillation among fans between "woohoo, we're great, Dougie's great, we're going to push for the play-offs" after a win and "we're shit, we're doomed, we're going down and the club's going into administration" after a defeat.

I'll have to take your word for it. I can't remember that far back.

That explains your monotonous posts then.

[onlywanderer]

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

The club is going in a downwards direction at the moment. Was that the direction you were referring to?

Well, irrespective of league position, the performance yesterday was incomparably better than the away game Vs Milwall (Coyles last game).

I couldn't see how we could possibly win under Coyle and defeat seemed inevitable, yesterday I saw a game plan that was working and i thought we deserved the win. As i said, get one or two players either back to fitness (Mark Davies), back on form (Chris Eagles) and in the starting 11 (Medo? though I can't and won't profess to know any thing of this fella other than what I've seen and heard on here), and we'd have a team that on it's bad days, is an organised unit that is hard to break down and can always snatch a win, and on it's good days, can turn any team in this division over

In my opinion, it won't be long till our league position reflects the upward direction I think our entire club is going in.

[Prufrock]

I went yesterday and thought over all we were bloody unlucky. Best I've seen us play in a long while. We had an obvious shape, we were organised (the starting back four going over organisation drills during the warm up was a welcome sight). The players were all working their nuts off (Spearing and Pratley in particular) and you could see what we were trying to do. I thought Vela struggled, Chris Eagles looked knackered from the start, and Ream tries hard and looks a whole lot better, but is still a liability at times.

In my opinion we were a stronger centre back and an inform Eagles away from winning that game.

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

Aye, a while since I've been to a game and you forget how differently it seems to folk who only go off the result and limited commentary. We played really well yesterday. Not sure I agree about Vela, I thought he did OK. Looked to try to get it down and play, which was a big reason I think we did well. I wouldn't be picking him every week but it's good that at his age he looked comfortable.

Eagles was wank, again. Unfortunately, from the brief cameo of De Ridder, we've replaced Afobe like-for-like. He was shite. Every single time he got it he tried to beat everybody. Possible he just had a shocker and was trying too hard to impress, but I'm not optimistic. Craig Davies looked ok, without doing much. Pratley was genuinely our best player, ran the channels, got around Sordell and gave him support (which was really important given Sordell doesn't offer much 'presence'). If only he had the slightest modicum of actual footballing talent he'd be brilliant, he really would. You can see he's a a clever footballer, he just isn't quite capable of doing what he knows he should.

Impressed with Sordell, good attitude and held it up well for someone his size. Was good to see a couple of times him chasing down long balls forward which even though he was never going to win, by chasing them he made the defender play under pressure and gained us a throw or the ball back.

The first goal was abject, the second frustrating, but we really did play well, and they're a good side. Keep our heads and we'll be fine.

[BL3]

I couldn't see how we could possibly win under Coyle and defeat seemed inevitable, yesterday I saw a game plan that was working and i thought we deserved the win.

In my opinion, it won't be long till our league position reflects the upward direction I think our entire club is going in.

But in the first ten games of this season we took more points than we have in the last ten games and if anything, the first ten games were tougher. There's perception and then there's reality.

[BWFC_Insane]

I went yesterday and thought over all we were bloody unlucky. Best I've seen us play in a long while. We had an obvious shape, we were organised (the starting back four going over organisation drills during the warm up was a welcome sight). The players were all working their nuts off (Spearing and Pratley in particular) and you could see what we were trying to do. I thought Vela struggled, Chris Eagles looked knackered from the start, and Ream tries hard and looks a whole lot better, but is still a liability at times.

In my opinion we were a stronger centre back and an inform Eagles away from winning that game.

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

Aye, a while since I've been to a game and you forget how differently it seems to folk who only go off the result and limited commentary. We played really well yesterday. Not sure I agree about Vela, I thought he did OK. Looked to try to get it down and play, which was a big reason I think we did well. I wouldn't be picking him every week but it's good that at his age he looked comfortable.

Eagles was wank, again. Unfortunately, from the brief cameo of De Ridder, we've replaced Afobe like-for-like. He was shite. Every single time he got it he tried to beat everybody. Possible he just had a shocker and was trying too hard to impress, but I'm not optimistic. Craig Davies looked ok, without doing much. Pratley was genuinely our best player, ran the channels, got around Sordell and gave him support (which was really important given Sordell doesn't offer much 'presence'). If only he had the slightest modicum of actual footballing talent he'd be brilliant, he really would. You can see he's a a clever footballer, he just isn't quite capable of doing what he knows he should.

Impressed with Sordell, good attitude and held it up well for someone his size. Was good to see a couple of times him chasing down long balls forward which even though he was never going to win, by chasing them he made the defender play under pressure and gained us a throw or the ball back.

The first goal was abject, the second frustrating, but we really did play well, and they're a good side. Keep our heads and we'll be fine.

Interesting. Have to say on the commentary and clearly that's all I can go off, Simon Charlton was scathing of Vela's performance. 'not offering anything at all defensively or offensively'.


However, I thought he did well against Everton after a shaky first 20 minutes, so we shall have to see.

We are missing some of Andrews physical presence though IMO.

[Prufrock]

I couldn't see how we could possibly win under Coyle and defeat seemed inevitable, yesterday I saw a game plan that was working and i thought we deserved the win.

In my opinion, it won't be long till our league position reflects the upward direction I think our entire club is going in.

But in the first ten games of this season we took more points than we have in the last ten games and if anything, the first ten games were tougher. There's perception and then there's reality.

If you want to get philosophical, there's only ever perception. Granted, here, one form is objective and the other subjective.

Objectively, over a sample of ten games, we got more points, no denying that. Subjectively, to a number of fans we appear to be playing better, more organised, more of a plan. Long term I think that is far more likely to get us more points. You may not, that's great, but no matter how loudly you try to shout it, and no matter how many hilarious, acerbic rejoinders you dress it up with, it's still only an opinion. Whilst of course results matter more than performances, you can't have any sustained success in terms of results without performances. If we were playing poorly I'd be very worried right now, but we aren't. So, as long as we look likely to stay up, and I think we do, he gets plenty more time from me.

[onlywanderer]

I went yesterday and thought over all we were bloody unlucky. Best I've seen us play in a long while. We had an obvious shape, we were organised (the starting back four going over organisation drills during the warm up was a welcome sight). The players were all working their nuts off (Spearing and Pratley in particular) and you could see what we were trying to do. I thought Vela struggled, Chris Eagles looked knackered from the start, and Ream tries hard and looks a whole lot better, but is still a liability at times.

In my opinion we were a stronger centre back and an inform Eagles away from winning that game.

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

Aye, a while since I've been to a game and you forget how differently it seems to folk who only go off the result and limited commentary. We played really well yesterday. Not sure I agree about Vela, I thought he did OK. Looked to try to get it down and play, which was a big reason I think we did well. I wouldn't be picking him every week but it's good that at his age he looked comfortable.

Eagles was wank, again. Unfortunately, from the brief cameo of De Ridder, we've replaced Afobe like-for-like. He was shite. Every single time he got it he tried to beat everybody. Possible he just had a shocker and was trying too hard to impress, but I'm not optimistic. Craig Davies looked ok, without doing much. Pratley was genuinely our best player, ran the channels, got around Sordell and gave him support (which was really important given Sordell doesn't offer much 'presence'). If only he had the slightest modicum of actual footballing talent he'd be brilliant, he really would. You can see he's a a clever footballer, he just isn't quite capable of doing what he knows he should.

Impressed with Sordell, good attitude and held it up well for someone his size. Was good to see a couple of times him chasing down long balls forward which even though he was never going to win, by chasing them he made the defender play under pressure and gained us a throw or the ball back.

The first goal was abject, the second frustrating, but we really did play well, and they're a good side. Keep our heads and we'll be fine.

Agree on Pratley, Can't believe it's the same player i've seen fumbling about with the ball. Just goes to show what a bit of fitness/belief in a player from the manager can do. He was every where, offered him self to receive the ball through the middle, never stopped running and even had the nerve to show some decent touches and bits of skill!

I like Vela a lot, think it's great that he's getting in the side and would encourage that. As you say, got it down and looked to play. I only say he struggled as on a couple of occasions he was a little panicked in possession and gave the ball away. Early in the first half this could, and perhaps should have led to a Watford opener (Bogdan made a decent save). But he's a young lad and given more game time, will be a very decent player for us.

Liked Sordell also, His inclusion in the side made us play, Knight played ten yard passes to Alonso and Ream rather than looking long for SKD.

Sounds slightly odd, but i left the game yesterday feeling frustrated, but also hugely optimistic. We just need to carry on doing what we're doing.

[BL3]

We just need to carry on doing what we're doing.

No. We need to do the opposite of what we're doing. Performances are irrelevant at this stage. We need points.

People are talking as it's the start of the season and results will come in time. But time is rapidly running out. Have you seen our last few fixtures? Cardiff, Leicester, Middlesborough in three of the last four games.

[Prufrock]

I went yesterday and thought over all we were bloody unlucky. Best I've seen us play in a long while. We had an obvious shape, we were organised (the starting back four going over organisation drills during the warm up was a welcome sight). The players were all working their nuts off (Spearing and Pratley in particular) and you could see what we were trying to do. I thought Vela struggled, Chris Eagles looked knackered from the start, and Ream tries hard and looks a whole lot better, but is still a liability at times.

In my opinion we were a stronger centre back and an inform Eagles away from winning that game.

I like Freedman, I like what he's doing with our club and though we lost, feel a hell of a lot more positive about the direction the club is going.

Aye, a while since I've been to a game and you forget how differently it seems to folk who only go off the result and limited commentary. We played really well yesterday. Not sure I agree about Vela, I thought he did OK. Looked to try to get it down and play, which was a big reason I think we did well. I wouldn't be picking him every week but it's good that at his age he looked comfortable.

Eagles was wank, again. Unfortunately, from the brief cameo of De Ridder, we've replaced Afobe like-for-like. He was shite. Every single time he got it he tried to beat everybody. Possible he just had a shocker and was trying too hard to impress, but I'm not optimistic. Craig Davies looked ok, without doing much. Pratley was genuinely our best player, ran the channels, got around Sordell and gave him support (which was really important given Sordell doesn't offer much 'presence'). If only he had the slightest modicum of actual footballing talent he'd be brilliant, he really would. You can see he's a a clever footballer, he just isn't quite capable of doing what he knows he should.

Impressed with Sordell, good attitude and held it up well for someone his size. Was good to see a couple of times him chasing down long balls forward which even though he was never going to win, by chasing them he made the defender play under pressure and gained us a throw or the ball back.

The first goal was abject, the second frustrating, but we really did play well, and they're a good side. Keep our heads and we'll be fine.

Interesting. Have to say on the commentary and clearly that's all I can go off, Simon Charlton was scathing of Vela's performance. 'not offering anything at all defensively or offensively'.


However, I thought he did well against Everton after a shaky first 20 minutes, so we shall have to see.

We are missing some of Andrews physical presence though IMO.

That's very harsh IMO, very harsh. If a 27 year old pro had put in that performance you'd probably have said 6/10. He's comfortable on the ball, and wants it, which is a good sign at that age, and a good sign at any age given the number of midfielders we've had over the last few years who see the ball at the centre-half's feet, turn their back and jog up to the half-way line. Thought he and Spearing did well in keeping possession when needed. Nice and simple, bet it off the centre-halves, and try to get Lee and Ricketts, or Eagles and Alonso 2v1. If it doesn't work, come out and work across the other side. To do that you need CMs who want the ball constantly. Vela did.

That said, I've already mentioned I think he takes a fair part of the blame for the second. The bits I'd seen of him before he wasn't scared to put his foot in, but he didn't really do that yesterday. Looked a bit overawed defensively. If I said he played well, that's with the usual benefit of the doubt to new young players who tend to get a little more leeway than others. Even without that, to say he played poorly is harsh IMO, was one of the reasons we controlled the ball against a team who are used to keeping it themselves.

[Prufrock]

We just need to carry on doing what we're doing.

No. We need to do the opposite of what we're doing. Performances are irrelevant at this stage. We need points.

People are talking as it's the start of the season and results will come in time. But time is rapidly running out. Have you seen our last few fixtures? Cardiff, Leicester, Middlesborough in three of the last four games.

Have you seen that there are still 17 games? Cardiff who we've already beaten, Leicester we drew with, and Boro who lost 4-0 away from home yesterday. The differences between teams aren't massive in this division. We need results, sure, but they aren't likely to come without performances. We played well yesterday, so doing the opposite would be playing badly. If we play badly for the next 17 games then we really will be in trouble.

If by 'the opposite' you mean that we need to win rather than lose, well, then, yes. That is, unsurprisingly, true.