Freedman out!

[boltonboris]

Fvck off Prufrock

We'll quote what we want

[jaffka]

do you know on transfer deadline day, Barcelona offered to loan us Messi

Duggie said no

[Lord Kangana]

Simply not true. Theres bags of room for him on the bench.

[LeverEnd]

do you know on transfer deadline day, Barcelona offered to loan us Messi

Duggie said "no"

Corrected.

[jaffka]

do you know on transfer deadline day, Barcelona offered to loan us Messi

Duggie said "no"

Corrected.

[bobo the clown]

do you know on transfer deadline day, Barcelona offered to loan us Messi

Duggie said "no"

Corrected.

Ouch.

Very good.

[Worthy4England]

f**k the self appointed forum police, the revolution is on

Does that make you part of the self appointed forum police, police?

Who will police, the self appointed forum police, police. That's what I want to know.

[jaffka]

dunno, not thought of that. busy throwing bricks through forum windows



f**k the self appointed forum police

[bwfcdan94]

f**k the self appointed forum police, the revolution is on

Does that make you part of the self appointed forum police, police?

Who will police, the self appointed forum police, police. That's what I want to know.

I will

[LeverEnd]

f**k the self appointed forum police, the revolution is on

Does that make you part of the self appointed forum police, police?

Who will police, the self appointed forum police, police. That's what I want to know.

I will

He gonna clean up this forum, ain't no mistake...

[wigan white]

f**k the self appointed forum police, the revolution is on

Does that make you part of the self appointed forum police, police?

Who will police, the self appointed forum police, police. That's what I want to know.

I will

He gonna clean up this forum, ain't no mistake...

I picture Dan cleaning up this forum just like Tom Cruise did as Jack Reacher

Dougie Out!!!!! just to keep the thread on track.

[bwfcdan94]

f**k the self appointed forum police, the revolution is on

Does that make you part of the self appointed forum police, police?

Who will police, the self appointed forum police, police. That's what I want to know.

I will

He gonna clean up this forum, ain't no mistake...

I picture Dan cleaning up this forum just like Tom Cruise did as Jack Reacher

Dougie Out!!!!! just to keep the thread on track.

I think Zulu and co are doing a good enough job tbf.

[SmokinFrazier]

He's not worse than Coyle.

He obviously is. Coyle has done far more in his managerial career and is a lot better tactically. I won't expand on that too much because it'll seem like I rate Coyle, which I don't, but he's clearly a superior manager to Freedman. Coyle's career statistics are better and they're also better as Bolton manager, despite the fact we were in a tougher league for the majority of Coyle's reign.

please, feel free! Everyone is now aware you don't rate Coyle, so expand briefly on how he is better 'tactically' than Freedman.

Unless of course it's because, despite constantly throwing around phrases like 'tactically inept', which are a little meaningless anyway, you don't actually know what you mean by that.

Coyle picked, for a Premier League game, a midfield four of Eagles, Pratley, Mark Davies and Tuncay. With SKD and Klasnic in front. A front six, none of whom have ever made a tackle, one striker apart. He also persisted with a front two of Klasnic and Davies wherever possible, despite the fact that none of them can run. Even after stumbling upon a formula that worked, he then reverted back to the glacial front two wherever possible. Then we had the constant Mark Davies on the right of a flat four. We had leaving constantly leaving Paul Robinson isolated. We had constantly bringing Petrov, who had one attribute, crossing, on on the right hand side. Your own current stick for beating Dougie with is that we don't close anyone down on the edge of the box; this isn't a new problem, we constantly conceded goals allowing people to run at our back four who backed off and backed off until goal. Nani at home the one that springs immediately to mind.

Tactics aside, we had two proper keepers and a promising kid, and he went with the kid, who patently wasn't ready. He lost Stuart Holden to injury,but persisted with not playing Muamba despite him being the only one who could tackle. When he did play Muamba, we'd look good, until he subbed him off at which point we'd promptly lose. He did all this whilst claiming to be cutting the wage bill whilst not, in fact, cutting the wage bill. People slag Freedman off for not playing his own signings, but Coyle, claiming not to have loads of cash, jizzed that that he did have away on shite like N'Gog and Sordell, who he then didn't pick, instead sticking with the aforementioned glacial front two. Tuncay, Pratley, Wheater etc... all players he signed and didn't play.

Owen Coyle took over a team in 18th, made them good for a year (for which he gets credit, despite its now obvious dodgy foundations) and then managed to relegate that team. Having relegated that team, he then managed to fcuk it up further, and had us going at a points per game rate that would have seen us relegated. He, more than anyone has done well out of continuing troubles as it seems some have forgotten how shite he really was, but that dickhead is the worst manager I've ever seen at BWFC - worse even than Sammy Lee, and I'll be astounded and devastated if I see anyone ever come close to his levels of ineptitude.

None of that is, or should be read as, a defence of Freedman, who is doing shit and can, for me, do one too. I've a sneaking feeling that, as long as we don't look in severe danger of going down (by which I mean we drop into the bottom 3) he'll be staying, and will get the summer to try to rebuild after as many high earners as poss go (the out of contracts and out of favours). In that case, I hope he can do it, and can use the money left to get in some hungry sorts and hooray we all win. I'm not optimistic though. I can, at least, see what he is trying to do though. I don't like it, AND it isn't working, but it seems everyone can see the plan is 'be solid, nick it on the break, defend that lead'. I didn't have a scooby-do what Coyle was even trying.

So yeah. Freedman bad, Coyle worse.

It'd be a long post if we were to go back and forwards criticising the tactically mistakes made by Coyle and Freedman, so I won't expand on what I've already said on Freedman's failings. What I will say, however, is that the proof of tactical success lies in results and Coyle's results, however awful some mistakes were, have been better throughout his career than what Freedman has done.

Coyle did a very good job at St. Johnstone and then did an even better job at Burnley. It's easy for us now to slag off his achievements in hindsight but what he did with Burnley was remarkable and he deserves massive praise for that. Even with us, his overall PPG during his stay with us would be enough for a mid-table finish most seasons, so it wasn't a complete failure. What was a failure, was his last season in charge but even then, it's not like we were relegated with absolute shame like Wolves were, we narrowly missed out on survival and given the injuries we'd had that season, it was always going to be tough. Coyle was unable to turn things around and made plenty of mistakes, but there's managerial talent in him, otherwise he wouldn't have had as much success as he has had.

Freedman, however, did nowhere near as good of a job at Palace that Coyle did at Burnley. It's not even close and Freedman had the better group of players at his disposal too. Since coming to Bolton, Freedman has had the same group of players that narrowly got relegated in the Premier League and has turned them into a struggling Championship side, which plays awful football that can't defend and is woeful going forward. Freedman blames his failings on the "nucleus" that Coyle had during his stay but Coyle did a much, much better job with those same group of players. If Coyle had failed as much as Freedman has done, we'd have been relegated on about 9 points for the season, and it certainly wouldn't have gone to the last day.

Coyle is a much better manager than Freedman is. He's done more already and will have a much better future.

[truewhite15]

He's not worse than Coyle.

He obviously is. Coyle has done far more in his managerial career and is a lot better tactically. I won't expand on that too much because it'll seem like I rate Coyle, which I don't, but he's clearly a superior manager to Freedman. Coyle's career statistics are better and they're also better as Bolton manager, despite the fact we were in a tougher league for the majority of Coyle's reign.

please, feel free! Everyone is now aware you don't rate Coyle, so expand briefly on how he is better 'tactically' than Freedman.

Unless of course it's because, despite constantly throwing around phrases like 'tactically inept', which are a little meaningless anyway, you don't actually know what you mean by that.

Coyle picked, for a Premier League game, a midfield four of Eagles, Pratley, Mark Davies and Tuncay. With SKD and Klasnic in front. A front six, none of whom have ever made a tackle, one striker apart. He also persisted with a front two of Klasnic and Davies wherever possible, despite the fact that none of them can run. Even after stumbling upon a formula that worked, he then reverted back to the glacial front two wherever possible. Then we had the constant Mark Davies on the right of a flat four. We had leaving constantly leaving Paul Robinson isolated. We had constantly bringing Petrov, who had one attribute, crossing, on on the right hand side. Your own current stick for beating Dougie with is that we don't close anyone down on the edge of the box; this isn't a new problem, we constantly conceded goals allowing people to run at our back four who backed off and backed off until goal. Nani at home the one that springs immediately to mind.

Tactics aside, we had two proper keepers and a promising kid, and he went with the kid, who patently wasn't ready. He lost Stuart Holden to injury,but persisted with not playing Muamba despite him being the only one who could tackle. When he did play Muamba, we'd look good, until he subbed him off at which point we'd promptly lose. He did all this whilst claiming to be cutting the wage bill whilst not, in fact, cutting the wage bill. People slag Freedman off for not playing his own signings, but Coyle, claiming not to have loads of cash, jizzed that that he did have away on shite like N'Gog and Sordell, who he then didn't pick, instead sticking with the aforementioned glacial front two. Tuncay, Pratley, Wheater etc... all players he signed and didn't play.

Owen Coyle took over a team in 18th, made them good for a year (for which he gets credit, despite its now obvious dodgy foundations) and then managed to relegate that team. Having relegated that team, he then managed to fcuk it up further, and had us going at a points per game rate that would have seen us relegated. He, more than anyone has done well out of continuing troubles as it seems some have forgotten how shite he really was, but that dickhead is the worst manager I've ever seen at BWFC - worse even than Sammy Lee, and I'll be astounded and devastated if I see anyone ever come close to his levels of ineptitude.

None of that is, or should be read as, a defence of Freedman, who is doing shit and can, for me, do one too. I've a sneaking feeling that, as long as we don't look in severe danger of going down (by which I mean we drop into the bottom 3) he'll be staying, and will get the summer to try to rebuild after as many high earners as poss go (the out of contracts and out of favours). In that case, I hope he can do it, and can use the money left to get in some hungry sorts and hooray we all win. I'm not optimistic though. I can, at least, see what he is trying to do though. I don't like it, AND it isn't working, but it seems everyone can see the plan is 'be solid, nick it on the break, defend that lead'. I didn't have a scooby-do what Coyle was even trying.

So yeah. Freedman bad, Coyle worse.

It'd be a long post if we were to go back and forwards criticising the tactically mistakes made by Coyle and Freedman, so I won't expand on what I've already said on Freedman's failings. What I will say, however, is that the proof of tactical success lies in results and Coyle's results, however awful some mistakes were, have been better throughout his career than what Freedman has done.

Coyle did a very good job at St. Johnstone and then did an even better job at Burnley. It's easy for us now to slag off his achievements in hindsight but what he did with Burnley was remarkable and he deserves massive praise for that. Even with us, his overall PPG during his stay with us would be enough for a mid-table finish most seasons, so it wasn't a complete failure. What was a failure, was his last season in charge but even then, it's not like we were relegated with absolute shame like Wolves were, we narrowly missed out on survival and given the injuries we'd had that season, it was always going to be tough. Coyle was unable to turn things around and made plenty of mistakes, but there's managerial talent in him, otherwise he wouldn't have had as much success as he has had.

Freedman, however, did nowhere near as good of a job at Palace that Coyle did at Burnley. It's not even close and Freedman had the better group of players at his disposal too. Since coming to Bolton, Freedman has had the same group of players that narrowly got relegated in the Premier League and has turned them into a struggling Championship side, which plays awful football that can't defend and is woeful going forward. Freedman blames his failings on the "nucleus" that Coyle had during his stay but Coyle did a much, much better job with those same group of players. If Coyle had failed as much as Freedman has done, we'd have been relegated on about 9 points for the season, and it certainly wouldn't have gone to the last day.

Coyle is a much better manager than Freedman is. He's done more already and will have a much better future.

No. No, there isn't. And no, he isn't. They're both shite, and neither will make it as a manager. Coyle's fine when things are going well, but has feck all idea how to stop a sinking ship. Freedman doesn't have a clue on that front either.

I will not have hindsight painting Coyle as a misunderstood genius. He was a pillock, a stubborn prick who had the players to keep us up but refused to play them, and he fecked this club over royally.

[jaffka]

This is quite pointless really.

Regardless of who thinks who is best, is anyone likely to change their minds on what someone else puts as to who was the shittest.

Lee, Megson and Coyle have gone, Freedman is here. That's what matters

[Worthy4England]

He's not worse than Coyle.

He obviously is. Coyle has done far more in his managerial career and is a lot better tactically. I won't expand on that too much because it'll seem like I rate Coyle, which I don't, but he's clearly a superior manager to Freedman. Coyle's career statistics are better and they're also better as Bolton manager, despite the fact we were in a tougher league for the majority of Coyle's reign.

please, feel free! Everyone is now aware you don't rate Coyle, so expand briefly on how he is better 'tactically' than Freedman.

Unless of course it's because, despite constantly throwing around phrases like 'tactically inept', which are a little meaningless anyway, you don't actually know what you mean by that.

Coyle picked, for a Premier League game, a midfield four of Eagles, Pratley, Mark Davies and Tuncay. With SKD and Klasnic in front. A front six, none of whom have ever made a tackle, one striker apart. He also persisted with a front two of Klasnic and Davies wherever possible, despite the fact that none of them can run. Even after stumbling upon a formula that worked, he then reverted back to the glacial front two wherever possible. Then we had the constant Mark Davies on the right of a flat four. We had leaving constantly leaving Paul Robinson isolated. We had constantly bringing Petrov, who had one attribute, crossing, on on the right hand side. Your own current stick for beating Dougie with is that we don't close anyone down on the edge of the box; this isn't a new problem, we constantly conceded goals allowing people to run at our back four who backed off and backed off until goal. Nani at home the one that springs immediately to mind.

Tactics aside, we had two proper keepers and a promising kid, and he went with the kid, who patently wasn't ready. He lost Stuart Holden to injury,but persisted with not playing Muamba despite him being the only one who could tackle. When he did play Muamba, we'd look good, until he subbed him off at which point we'd promptly lose. He did all this whilst claiming to be cutting the wage bill whilst not, in fact, cutting the wage bill. People slag Freedman off for not playing his own signings, but Coyle, claiming not to have loads of cash, jizzed that that he did have away on shite like N'Gog and Sordell, who he then didn't pick, instead sticking with the aforementioned glacial front two. Tuncay, Pratley, Wheater etc... all players he signed and didn't play.

Owen Coyle took over a team in 18th, made them good for a year (for which he gets credit, despite its now obvious dodgy foundations) and then managed to relegate that team. Having relegated that team, he then managed to fcuk it up further, and had us going at a points per game rate that would have seen us relegated. He, more than anyone has done well out of continuing troubles as it seems some have forgotten how shite he really was, but that dickhead is the worst manager I've ever seen at BWFC - worse even than Sammy Lee, and I'll be astounded and devastated if I see anyone ever come close to his levels of ineptitude.

None of that is, or should be read as, a defence of Freedman, who is doing shit and can, for me, do one too. I've a sneaking feeling that, as long as we don't look in severe danger of going down (by which I mean we drop into the bottom 3) he'll be staying, and will get the summer to try to rebuild after as many high earners as poss go (the out of contracts and out of favours). In that case, I hope he can do it, and can use the money left to get in some hungry sorts and hooray we all win. I'm not optimistic though. I can, at least, see what he is trying to do though. I don't like it, AND it isn't working, but it seems everyone can see the plan is 'be solid, nick it on the break, defend that lead'. I didn't have a scooby-do what Coyle was even trying.

So yeah. Freedman bad, Coyle worse.

It'd be a long post if we were to go back and forwards criticising the tactically mistakes made by Coyle and Freedman, so I won't expand on what I've already said on Freedman's failings. What I will say, however, is that the proof of tactical success lies in results and Coyle's results, however awful some mistakes were, have been better throughout his career than what Freedman has done.

Coyle did a very good job at St. Johnstone and then did an even better job at Burnley. It's easy for us now to slag off his achievements in hindsight but what he did with Burnley was remarkable and he deserves massive praise for that. Even with us, his overall PPG during his stay with us would be enough for a mid-table finish most seasons, so it wasn't a complete failure. What was a failure, was his last season in charge but even then, it's not like we were relegated with absolute shame like Wolves were, we narrowly missed out on survival and given the injuries we'd had that season, it was always going to be tough. Coyle was unable to turn things around and made plenty of mistakes, but there's managerial talent in him, otherwise he wouldn't have had as much success as he has had.

Freedman, however, did nowhere near as good of a job at Palace that Coyle did at Burnley. It's not even close and Freedman had the better group of players at his disposal too. Since coming to Bolton, Freedman has had the same group of players that narrowly got relegated in the Premier League and has turned them into a struggling Championship side, which plays awful football that can't defend and is woeful going forward. Freedman blames his failings on the "nucleus" that Coyle had during his stay but Coyle did a much, much better job with those same group of players. If Coyle had failed as much as Freedman has done, we'd have been relegated on about 9 points for the season, and it certainly wouldn't have gone to the last day.

Coyle is a much better manager than Freedman is. He's done more already and will have a much better future.

More to it than that.

Burnley's wage bill in 2009 was higher than Crystal Palace's two years later, in 2011, when Freedman was there - if you don't think that has any sort of impact on win rates, then there's no hope. Just comparing win rates doesn't paint the whole picture by any stretch.

I would struggle to say who was best tactically between Mourinho, Pellegrini and Wenger, but I can point to who has the highest wage bill and who has won most pots. That in itself doesn't help me understand who's best tactically.

Coyle was sat on the 14th highest wage bill in the Prem when he finished 18th. That to me is a significant underperformance and one which was meritorious of the sack.

Freedman is probably sat on one of the highest wage bills in the Championship, but against a back-drop of needing to half it, or more (which we were told by both Megson and Coyle, they'd had to do, but the Accounts suggest otherwise).

None of this makes me believe Freedman should stay, because I think he's underperforming seriously too (as I did with Coyle), just comparing PPG/Win Rates is no indication of tactical nous on its own.

[Lord Kangana]

Yes, yes, but what the f*ck has any of this to do with how shit a job our current manager is doing?

He's not using the resources at his disposal to anywhere near their potential. That we're meandering off discussing Wigan's ex manager and Crystal Palace's last-manager-but-one just seems like a distraction from the main issue of "is Freedman shit for us?". The answer is an unequivocal yes.

[Armchair Wanderer]

If we're judging Coyle vs Freedman on their pre-Bolton jobs then of course Coyle would be better. That would be like saying Wenger is rubbish because he did nothing before Arsenal and Di Matteo was a tactical genius when he got the West Brom job.

Megson... last job was at his home town club and now might be almost unemployable. Certainly not Prem/C'ship level manager, I'd have thought.
Coyle... if ED was duped for so long because Coyle used to play for us, Whelan wasted no time in getting rid. Think the best may be behind him, maybe he can get another C'ship job?
Freedman... probably depends if/when he's sacked. If we get relegated it wouldn't look great.

[jonnycooper]

This is quite pointless really.

Regardless of who thinks who is best, is anyone likely to change their minds on what someone else puts as to who was the shittest.

Lee, Megson and Coyle have gone, Freedman is here. That's what matters

We could do with one of them Shit'o'meter thingamajigs to gain the true answer as to who really is/was the shittest

[bobo the clown]

Well .... today, it's definitely Dougie.