Ken Anderson - Old Owner (Definitely. For Ever ..... )

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Wait... KA puts several sums of money into the club which he subsequently recovers at 0% (less arrangement fees etc.). Apparently this means he has 'put nothing into the club'.

DH saddles BW with a £4 million debt, which is overdue and accruing massive interest, and that means he's 'put something into the club'?

Totally agree with Whookam....I can't understand what AT is on about - DH has put nothing whatsoever into the club out of his own pocket and has actually kept £1M of the £5M loan at 24% interest (secured against club assets) and has also taken £250k in salaries etc....for doing absolutely nothing

As I said the other day, so instead of KA providing £3.5M of interest free loans and taking nothing back as a salary, I assume AT would have preferred KA to have borrowed £5M from QuickQuid at 24% interest, against club assets and to be paid back by the club instead of himself and kept a £1M of the loan for himself

Madness....

If Ken was actually investing in the club then fine, but he's not. He's calling the shots, selling assets etc. I'm not happy about Blu Marble, but wherever it came from it is actual money put in the club and kept it afloat. I was under the impression Ken was investing, not very short term loaning.

[Worthy4England]

Wait... KA puts several sums of money into the club which he subsequently recovers at 0% (less arrangement fees etc.). Apparently this means he has 'put nothing into the club'.

DH saddles BW with a £4 million debt, which is overdue and accruing massive interest, and that means he's 'put something into the club'?

Totally agree with Whookam....I can't understand what AT is on about - DH has put nothing whatsoever into the club out of his own pocket and has actually kept £1M of the £5M loan at 24% interest (secured against club assets) and has also taken £250k in salaries etc....for doing absolutely nothing

As I said the other day, so instead of KA providing £3.5M of interest free loans and taking nothing back as a salary, I assume AT would have preferred KA to have borrowed £5M from QuickQuid at 24% interest, against club assets and to be paid back by the club instead of himself and kept a £1M of the loan for himself

Madness....

If only it was all black and white like that.

Nobody seems to be disputing that Sports Shield has put 4m in (they seen to be disputing 5m) Given it's not been repaid, then that money is still in the Club or has been used by the Club.

KA is on record as having put 3.5m in which has been repaid in full and we unloaded a couple of key playing assets that helped pay that off. No one seems to be in dispute that the 3.5m is still in the club nor that it'should been paid back.

So my question would be this. Club can afford to pay out £3.5m if you're not an interested party (one of the loanees) which one would you reduce first? I'd be looking to get rid of the high interest one, personally.

[Peter Thompson]

Wait... KA puts several sums of money into the club which he subsequently recovers at 0% (less arrangement fees etc.). Apparently this means he has 'put nothing into the club'.

DH saddles BW with a £4 million debt, which is overdue and accruing massive interest, and that means he's 'put something into the club'?

Totally agree with Whookam....I can't understand what AT is on about - DH has put nothing whatsoever into the club out of his own pocket and has actually kept £1M of the £5M loan at 24% interest (secured against club assets) and has also taken £250k in salaries etc....for doing absolutely nothing

As I said the other day, so instead of KA providing £3.5M of interest free loans and taking nothing back as a salary, I assume AT would have preferred KA to have borrowed £5M from QuickQuid at 24% interest, against club assets and to be paid back by the club instead of himself and kept a £1M of the loan for himself

Madness....

If Ken was actually investing in the club then fine, but he's not. He's calling the shots, selling assets etc. I'm not happy about Blu Marble, but wherever it came from it is actual money put in the club and kept it afloat. I was under the impression Ken was investing, not very short term loaning.

No I still don't get it - so Ken's £3.5M interest free loans haven't kept the club afloat, but Holdsworth's £5M at 24% interest has ?

Also, let me get this right so Ken's £3.5M isn't actual money but the Blumarble loan is ?

I get the impression that Ken does want to invest (or get outside investment) but won't until Del boy Holdsworth is out of the picture and rightly so in my opinion, the sooner Holdsworth is out the better for me. One's trying to move the club forward (KA), the other (DH) has saddled the club with a ridiculous high interest loan....

[Peter Thompson]

I'd also add that from speaking to a few other BWFC fans last night and looking through other BWFC forum's the majority are backing KA on this

Its actually difficult to find anyone backing Holdsworth.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

No I still don't get it - so Ken's £3.5M interest free loans haven't kept the club afloat, but Holdsworth's £5M at 24% interest has ?

Also, let me get this right so Ken's £3.5M isn't actual money but the Blumarble loan is ?

I get the impression that Ken does want to invest (or get outside investment) but won't until Del boy Holdsworth is out of the picture and rightly so in my opinion, the sooner Holdsworth is out the better for me. One's trying to move the club forward (KA), the other (DH) has saddled the club with a ridiculous high interest loan, and has took £1.5M back for himself....

To me it appears that only one of them has fleeced the club to date and that's DH

Deano is legally responsible for the loan, even if it's secured on club assets that Deano technically owns a chunk of. Ken owns the other chunk but has sold assets to recover his money. I've no doubt we needed the loans, but given the difficulties we have paying wages on a seemingly monthly basis I would suggest Ken should be investing his share, whatever percentage it is and wherever that money comes from. When you buy a house does anyone care if it came from your bank account or a bank loan?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I'd also add that from speaking to a few other BWFC fans last night and looking through other BWFC forum's the majority are backing KA on this

Its actually difficult to find anyone backing Holdsworth.

I'm not backing Deano per se, just that Ken has talked a lot but hasn't actually invested a penny or anyone elses money. Very short term loans are a very different thing and it's investment and getting rid of that loan that is needed for us to survive.

[BWFC_Insane]

Am I right in thinking that Ken has put 3.5m in and taken 3.5m out, meaning a net spend of zero? Deano has put in the Blu Marble loan of 5m and taken 1.5m out (to pay BM installments? If so that would mean Deano has put net 3.5m in and Ken Nowt? In that scenario I can see why Deano might be reluctant to chuck more in until Ken does. Or have I got this wrong?

Dean borrowed 5m for sports shield from Blumarble. He secured that against club assets. He gave 4M of that to the club.

But he hasn't been making the repayments to Blumarble. So the accounts he signed off say anyhow.

Edit: Dean H also took a £250K from the club for something unknown....

So Dean has put money in. I know he isn't paying the loan off but he has actually put money in whereas Ken hasn't left any in. Not saying Dean is blameless in all this, but it strikes me that Ken is playing games.

He's not 'put money in'. He's arranged for a loan against club assets. Like a super high interest mortgage I guess. He has according to the accounts taken some of that money for 'undefined costs' and made the rest available to the club.

Essentially he has arranged for the club to borrow money against its assets but also taken some of that back.

Like I've said before I don't think there is a right or wrong here. The arrangement DH put in place is clearly horrendous and I dont think he's risking anything of his or sports shield. His personal donation can be seen as zero. In fact he's up on the deal if you consider the money paid to him by the club plus the money he took out of the loan again that was secured not against his but against club assets.

KA has given short term zero interest loans then pulled them back. In the short term that is the better arrangement but seemingly he hasn't been prepared to do what he said he would at takeover.

What is clear to me is that if either of these men are to own the club outright then everything aside we'd best hope it is KA as whilst he may not be honest I think the details have shown DH hasnt got access to any resources to run the club and almost definitely lacks the business nous.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I hope for neither of them.

[Peter Thompson]

I hope for neither of them.

Again I'll ask the question AT, would you be happier or happy for KA to match what Holdsworth has done i.e. borrow £5M from a pay day loan provider at 24% interest borrowed against club assets - keep £1M of it for himself and put the rest into the club, but not pay the loan back himself instead get the club to pay back the loan.....as opposed to providing £3.5m of interest free short term loans.

[Worthy4England]

Wait... KA puts several sums of money into the club which he subsequently recovers at 0% (less arrangement fees etc.). Apparently this means he has 'put nothing into the club'.

DH saddles BW with a £4 million debt, which is overdue and accruing massive interest, and that means he's 'put something into the club'?

Totally agree with Whookam....I can't understand what AT is on about - DH has put nothing whatsoever into the club out of his own pocket and has actually kept £1M of the £5M loan at 24% interest (secured against club assets) and has also taken £250k in salaries etc....for doing absolutely nothing

As I said the other day, so instead of KA providing £3.5M of interest free loans and taking nothing back as a salary, I assume AT would have preferred KA to have borrowed £5M from QuickQuid at 24% interest, against club assets and to be paid back by the club instead of himself and kept a £1M of the loan for himself

Madness....

If Ken was actually investing in the club then fine, but he's not. He's calling the shots, selling assets etc. I'm not happy about Blu Marble, but wherever it came from it is actual money put in the club and kept it afloat. I was under the impression Ken was investing, not very short term loaning.

No I still don't get it - so Ken's £3.5M interest free loans haven't kept the club afloat, but Holdsworth's £5M at 24% interest has ? Both have played a part one is repaid, the other isn't

Also, let me get this right so Ken's £3.5M isn't actual money but the Blumarble loan is ? They were both, as far as we can tell, "actual money", one is actual money back with Ken in his bank account, the other is actual money that's still in the Club.

I get the impression that Ken does want to invest (or get outside investment) but won't until Del boy Holdsworth is out of the picture and rightly so in my opinion, the sooner Holdsworth is out the better for me. One's trying to move the club forward (KA), the other (DH) has saddled the club with a ridiculous high interest loan, and has took £1.5M back for himself.... I think you need to be really, really careful with that last assertion. "Expenses" was the phrase used, I think in relation to the £1m related to the Blumarble Loan in the Accounts - we don't know yet what those "expenses" were. If they had been taken to cover arrangement fees (for example) which could be high on a speculative loan, then he wouldn't have taken them "back for himself".

They might also cover all the legal paperwork that needed to be in place to effect the takeover - we just don't know at this stage.

I don't think that KA asserts that he's taken them for himself, although he seems to be pointing in that direction, he picks his words very carefully. He says on the website he's taken the money out "one way or another". I think we do need to know what the £1.5m is made up of

To me it appears that only one of them has fleeced the club to date and that's DH

I'd love to live in black and white land. It'd remove a whole shitload of worry.

[Worthy4England]

I hope for neither of them.

Again I'll ask the question AT, would you be happier or happy for KA to match what Holdsworth has done i.e. borrow £5M from a pay day loan provider at 24% interest borrowed against club assets - keep £1M of it for himself and put the rest into the club, but not pay the loan back himself instead get the club to pay back the loan.....as opposed to providing £3.5m of interest free short term loans.

Again on this point we need to be really clear on what has been posted elsewhere.

For clarity from BWFC.CO.UK

http://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/article/2016 ... 65846.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, he has always declined to contribute, even when he was full time employed (as the highest paid club employee, outside of players) and actively involved in the day-to-day operations, so fully aware of the club's financial position

That is payment for a job that he's doing, we could argue the why's and wherefores, but that isn't unwarranted taking of money - it's getting paid for the job he's performing.

Once again, for the record, unlike Dean, who has taken substantial monies (circa £1.5m) out of the club, one way or the other, I have never taken a salary despite working virtually full time and tirelessly on both club and hotel matters

On this KA doesn't say he's taken it personally for personal use. He just says "one way or the other" - if it's in relation to legitimate expenses then that's not "He's personally had"...

And from the Accounts

The funding received into the Group from Sports Shield BWFC Limited totalled £4m (After the deduction of £1m expenses)

It is entirely legitimate to recover expenses assuming it's possible to articulate what they are...

We're in between a rock and a hard place from where I'm sat and arguing the merits of one over the other at this stage is pretty fruitless.

[Peter Thompson]

I'd love to live in black and white land. It'd remove a whole shitload of worry. [/color]

It does, you should try it.....

With regards to the £1M DH has apparently took out of the initial £5M loan, you are correct no one knows what this was for and it may have been an arrangement fee or associated expenses (which if true means that DH was / is even less astute business wise than first though, if that's possible....), but it should really be clarified.

My point again in relation to your comment that DH's Blumarble loan is still in the club, but KA's £3.5M isn't is that it isn't really DH's money....its like BWFCI said earlier he's not actually 'put money in'. He's just arranged for a loan against club assets.

If it does however transpire that DH is personally liable / responsible for repayment of the loan and not the club (in terms of assets etc) then that's different IMO and I'll give DH credit.....but I think we all know that's not the case, in reality DH hasn't actually done anything that other people couldn't have done, although admittedly other's were not exactly queuing up !

[Worthy4England]

I'd love to live in black and white land. It'd remove a whole shitload of worry. [/color]

It does, you should try it.....

With regards to the £1M DH has apparently took out of the initial £5M loan, you are correct no one knows what this was for and it may have been an arrangement fee or associated expenses (which if true means that DH was / is even less astute business wise than first though, if that's possible....), but it should really be clarified.

My point again in relation to your comment that DH's Blumarble loan is still in the club, but KA's £3.5M isn't is that it isn't really DH's money....its like BWFCI said earlier he's not actually 'put money in'. He's just arranged for a loan against club assets.

If it does however transpire that DH is personally liable / responsible for repayment of the loan and not the club (in terms of assets etc) then that's different IMO and I'll give DH credit.....but I think we all know that's not the case, in reality DH hasn't actually done anything that lots of other people couldn't have done

Some of this is almost certainly around timing too. We might look at the interest rate and arrangement fee's etc. and ask the question how the feck - but that's entirely different.

But back to the timing thing - if I recall correctly at the point in time the Club was sold, there was a shortfall of funds to get us through to the end of the season (last season). At that point in time, the only money, as far as we know, that was actually on the table was that Blumarble Loan (given DH's previous partners pulled out). We don't know whether KA put money in at that point or at a later point, but we do know from the Accounts that he's put £3.5 in and taken £3.5 out. Couple of things we don't know related to Anderson are:

1) Is Mrs Anderson getting paid a salary?
2) On the player transactions, did any of Ken's family act as agents for either the player or the club and take a fee?
3) Are there any other payments of any kind going to any of the Andersons or Anderson related companies?

Again, if the answer is yes, that doesn't make anything illegal, but it would suggest members of his family or his associated businesses were receiving legitimate money's in relation to club business

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

If it does however transpire that DH is personally liable / responsible for repayment of the loan and not the club (in terms of assets etc)

Isn't the loan against club assets, which presumably now are basically the stadium and the Lostock academy? Am I right in thinking DH (via Sports Shield) got a £5m loan against those assets in order to buy the club, a loan presumably arranged once his initial financial backer had dropped out?

If that's not the case, am I right in thinking that KA has renegotiated the loan (so it may well now be against club assets), or am I reading that wrong?

EDIT I think Worthy's just answered one or two of these...

One more: how big a slice of the bills we can't pay is the BluMarble loan?

[Worthy4England]

If it does however transpire that DH is personally liable / responsible for repayment of the loan and not the club (in terms of assets etc)

Isn't the loan against club assets, which presumably now are basically the stadium and the Lostock academy? Am I right in thinking DH (via Sports Shield) got a £5m loan against those assets in order to buy the club, a loan presumably arranged once his initial financial backer had dropped out?

If that's not the case, am I right in thinking that KA has renegotiated the loan (so it may well now be against club assets), or am I reading that wrong?

EDIT I think Worthy's just answered one or two of these...

Not quite that striaightforward (but then you knew it wouldn't be, didn't you )

No one has a "Personal Loan" as far as I can see.

The Blumarble Loan is between Blumarble and Burnden Leisure (I hear what Ken said that there was only Deano was a party to signature, but Simon Marland's signature is on it too as Club Secretary)

I think the "tricky bit" is that within the Charge, there is a Facilities Agreement - who can call off against the loan - That's in favour of Sports Shield BWFC Ltd, we don't know who is a signatory to this and we can't see the detail of this.

The Blumarble Charge contains fixed and floating elements, negative pledge and an intercreditor deed.

In summary there are 3 charges against the Club at the moment, registered on Companies House - Blumarble, Barclay's and one for Moonshift (two if you want to add in the Deed of Amendment).

The intercreditor deed between Blumarble, Barclays, Flidraw, Brett Warburton and Burnden Leisure states which order their "loans" rank in - we can't see this.
Negative Pledge generally means within the core asset base some particular assets have been called out that the loanee (Burnden Leisure) can't prioritize in favour of a different lender. We don't know which these are.

I think KA would dearly like to renegotiate the loan - to do that he'd have to be a party to it - I don't believe he's done this yet.

[BWFC_Insane]

There is too much we don't know. Let's imagine KA buys out DH and comes to some sort of agreement with Blumarble. How will he fund the club? He's already said it won't be with his own money.

So he will be bringing in as he himself described 'investment with a mixture of debt and equity'.

What that means is a big unknown. We can only speculate.

[Peter Thompson]

I'd love to live in black and white land. It'd remove a whole shitload of worry. [/color]

It does, you should try it.....

With regards to the £1M DH has apparently took out of the initial £5M loan, you are correct no one knows what this was for and it may have been an arrangement fee or associated expenses (which if true means that DH was / is even less astute business wise than first though, if that's possible....), but it should really be clarified.

My point again in relation to your comment that DH's Blumarble loan is still in the club, but KA's £3.5M isn't is that it isn't really DH's money....its like BWFCI said earlier he's not actually 'put money in'. He's just arranged for a loan against club assets.

If it does however transpire that DH is personally liable / responsible for repayment of the loan and not the club (in terms of assets etc) then that's different IMO and I'll give DH credit.....but I think we all know that's not the case, in reality DH hasn't actually done anything that lots of other people couldn't have done

Some of this is almost certainly around timing too. We might look at the interest rate and arrangement fee's etc. and ask the question how the feck - but that's entirely different.

But back to the timing thing - if I recall correctly at the point in time the Club was sold, there was a shortfall of funds to get us through to the end of the season (last season). At that point in time, the only money, as far as we know, that was actually on the table was that Blumarble Loan (given DH's previous partners pulled out). We don't know whether KA put money in at that point or at a later point, but we do know from the Accounts that he's put £3.5 in and taken £3.5 out. Couple of things we don't know related to Anderson are:

1) Is Mrs Anderson getting paid a salary?
2) On the player transactions, did any of Ken's family act as agents for either the player or the club and take a fee?
3) Are there any other payments of any kind going to any of the Andersons or Anderson related companies?

Again, if the answer is yes, that doesn't make anything illegal, but it would suggest members of his family or his associated businesses were receiving legitimate money's in relation to club business

Worthy, no one is suggesting either party is or has done anything illegal.

For me I just don't think that DH taking out a very high interest loan secured against the club assets, and to which the club has to make the repayments is really DH putting money into the club and KA not - just because he's taking his short term loans back out.

I think if DH / Sports Shield had done this (i.e. putting interest free loans into the club and taking the cash back out when possible) then he would be getting a lot more credit from the fans and he would absolutely deserve an equal shareholding to KA. My points earlier are about whether anyone would have been or would still be happy for KA to provide the same sort of borrowed high interest loan funding as DH did....secured against club assets as opposed to his interest free personal loans.

[Worthy4England]

Beyond all the "he said, she said" Stuff, the underlying health report is still "losing £11m" per annum. If that doesn't get sorted, it doesn't look at all good from where I'm sat.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Thanks for invaluable insight, Worthy. I like to ask simple questions even if they don't have simple answers. Here's another: do we know what assets the Blumarble loan is secured against?

[Worthy4England]

Thanks for invaluable insight, Worthy. I like to ask simple questions even if they don't have simple answers. Here's another: do we know what assets the Blumarble loan is secured against?

No. I like to give simple answers to complex questions.