Coyle Plans Shake-Up

[boltonboris]

At that price, it's a good looking deal

[BWFC_Insane]

A few thoughts.

Loyalty is, as I've said before, an over-used concept which comes up so often because fans are by their very nature the definition of loyalty. And it's too simplistic to say that "all fans" use the word when it suits and ditch it when it doesn't. There's a variety of views on here, as there should be. But here's some names: Okocha, Djorkaeff, N'Gotty. Legends all; dumped all, at the end of a season, at the end of their perceived worth. Whatever their achievements, players get good wages until the club decide they're not worth them. Even Scholes and Giggs might not get "farewell tour" seasons.

I would not enjoy dropping Jussi. I would not enjoy seeing him leave. I'm not even saying either should happen. But I would understand it if it's for the good of the club – and as I've said earlier, it might not solely be because AAH or Bogdan are marginally better keepers or that Jussi is on the wane: it would be useful to allocate Jussi's wages elsewhere in our all too thin squad.

One other thing: Stuart Holden's still made the third-highest number of tackles, and he's been out for a month. There's your main problem, right there. Without Holden in central midfield (and especially with Elmander, bless him) there's simply too little cover and thus far too much pressure on our back four. Cahill wasn't detached, he was as determined as ever, but because he has ball control and wears white boots and doesn't look like he's head-butted a wall there's a perception that he doesn't work hard – a perception which has only increased since the rumours of his impending departure (rumours which were met with him singing a new contract, apparently purely for the good of the club). That perception, friends, is bollocks. Yet again he is the Bolton player with the most defensive blocks and rides high in the all-Premier list. We will, make no mistake, miss him when he's gone – yet, again, I would sell him if the price is right, and make the whole stronger.

This is pretty much spot on IMO.

One thing with Cahill is we've never really found his a partner that he's looked entirely comfortable with. Centre half pairings are very much down to getting the blend right. We'll miss him when he goes but sadly we will have to move on. Brum and Stoke have shown how to have solid defences without spending the earth. We need to follow suit.

[Lofthouse Lower]

[Tombwfc]

A few thoughts.

Loyalty is, as I've said before, an over-used concept which comes up so often because fans are by their very nature the definition of loyalty. And it's too simplistic to say that "all fans" use the word when it suits and ditch it when it doesn't. There's a variety of views on here, as there should be. But here's some names: Okocha, Djorkaeff, N'Gotty. Legends all; dumped all, at the end of a season, at the end of their perceived worth. Whatever their achievements, players get good wages until the club decide they're not worth them. Even Scholes and Giggs might not get "farewell tour" seasons.

I would not enjoy dropping Jussi. I would not enjoy seeing him leave. I'm not even saying either should happen. But I would understand it if it's for the good of the club – and as I've said earlier, it might not solely be because AAH or Bogdan are marginally better keepers or that Jussi is on the wane: it would be useful to allocate Jussi's wages elsewhere in our all too thin squad.

You're right in that there's no kind of hive-mind on here and to imply there is by generalising different people's opinions and calling them hypocrisy, is simplistic. In any case, I still think the point is a fair one, and is true of a lot of football fans in my experience. Plenty of people were quick to call Elmander disloyal for saying he had 'no obligation' to sign a new deal, but few seem to think we have any obligation whatsoever to any of our players. Are they the same people? I don't know.

I've never suggested that we should keep Jussi until his corpse is getting stick for not coming for crosses, or even that there is anything wrong or disloyal in suggesting that we should keep other options in mind.

One day, in the not too distant future, someone (it might even be Jussi himself) will need to make the decision that the club would be better served a different goalkeeper. I don't think there's much evidence to say that his performances are declining (and the statistical evidence above would suggest he's still as good as any 'keeper in the league) and I think seeing Ali on MoTD every week (and a general 'grass is greener' mind-set) has given people itchy trigger fingers, wanting to move him on now. If others think differently that's fair enough.

However, there's ways of letting him go, and the one implied in the article that spawned this thread (drop him with immediate effect for the remainder of the season, look to get rid in the summer), would be a disrespectful and petty way to go about doing it IMO, particularly if done as a reaction to last Sunday.

[boltonboris]

If Jussi had fooked up like AAH did at City there'd be pitchforks and torches at the ready!

[BWFC_Insane]

A few thoughts.

Loyalty is, as I've said before, an over-used concept which comes up so often because fans are by their very nature the definition of loyalty. And it's too simplistic to say that "all fans" use the word when it suits and ditch it when it doesn't. There's a variety of views on here, as there should be. But here's some names: Okocha, Djorkaeff, N'Gotty. Legends all; dumped all, at the end of a season, at the end of their perceived worth. Whatever their achievements, players get good wages until the club decide they're not worth them. Even Scholes and Giggs might not get "farewell tour" seasons.

I would not enjoy dropping Jussi. I would not enjoy seeing him leave. I'm not even saying either should happen. But I would understand it if it's for the good of the club – and as I've said earlier, it might not solely be because AAH or Bogdan are marginally better keepers or that Jussi is on the wane: it would be useful to allocate Jussi's wages elsewhere in our all too thin squad.

You're right in that there's no kind of hive-mind on here and to imply there is by generalising different people's opinions and calling them hypocrisy, is simplistic. In any case, I still think the point is a fair one, and is true of a lot of football fans in my experience. Plenty of people were quick to call Elmander disloyal for saying he had 'no obligation' to sign a new deal, but few seem to think we have any obligation whatsoever to any of our players. Are they the same people? I don't know.

I've never suggested that we should keep Jussi until his corpse is getting stick for not coming for crosses, or even that there is anything wrong or disloyal in suggesting that we should keep other options in mind.

One day, in the not too distant future, someone (it might even be Jussi himself) will need to make the decision that the club would be better served a different goalkeeper. I don't think there's much evidence to say that his performances are declining (and the statistical evidence above would suggest he's still as good as any 'keeper in the league) and I think seeing Ali on MoTD every week (and a general 'grass is greener' mind-set) has given people itchy trigger fingers, wanting to move him on now. If others think differently that's fair enough.

However, there's ways of letting him go, and the one implied in the article that spawned this thread (drop him with immediate effect for the remainder of the season, look to get rid in the summer), would be a disrespectful and petty way to go about doing it IMO, particularly if done as a reaction to last Sunday.

Its really hard with a keeper not making obvious mistakes where the suspicion is more that they're letting in some that could be saved. I'm not sure stats show a lot in these cases. My suspicion is anyways that Coyle is probably just trying to give Jussi a kick up the arse. Perhaps keeping Bogdan on his toes, perhaps Jussi is a bit complacent?

I suspect Jussi will be in goal against Arsenal.

[TANGODANCER]

This is small club, deep in debt, eigth in the league and looking at our eleventh succesive season here, Bolton, we're talking about isn't it? Only sometimes I get the feeling that that delusion we're always accusing others of might actually be getting contagious. Just saying.

[SonsOfThunder]

Warnock for 2 million? That'd be a great signing. That price doesn't even sound right.

Consider that we paid 2.5 million for Alonso...even Lee cost less at 2.2 million and Holden cost us some pocket lint. I've said it before, but I'd love it if Coyle kept an eye on talents such as these from the more 'untapped' talent markets around the world.

[Hoboh]

A few thoughts.

Loyalty is, as I've said before, an over-used concept which comes up so often because fans are by their very nature the definition of loyalty. And it's too simplistic to say that "all fans" use the word when it suits and ditch it when it doesn't. There's a variety of views on here, as there should be. But here's some names: Okocha, Djorkaeff, N'Gotty. Legends all; dumped all, at the end of a season, at the end of their perceived worth. Whatever their achievements, players get good wages until the club decide they're not worth them. Even Scholes and Giggs might not get "farewell tour" seasons.

I would not enjoy dropping Jussi. I would not enjoy seeing him leave. I'm not even saying either should happen. But I would understand it if it's for the good of the club – and as I've said earlier, it might not solely be because AAH or Bogdan are marginally better keepers or that Jussi is on the wane: it would be useful to allocate Jussi's wages elsewhere in our all too thin squad.

You're right in that there's no kind of hive-mind on here and to imply there is by generalising different people's opinions and calling them hypocrisy, is simplistic. In any case, I still think the point is a fair one, and is true of a lot of football fans in my experience. Plenty of people were quick to call Elmander disloyal for saying he had 'no obligation' to sign a new deal, but few seem to think we have any obligation whatsoever to any of our players. Are they the same people? I don't know.

I've never suggested that we should keep Jussi until his corpse is getting stick for not coming for crosses, or even that there is anything wrong or disloyal in suggesting that we should keep other options in mind.

One day, in the not too distant future, someone (it might even be Jussi himself) will need to make the decision that the club would be better served a different goalkeeper. I don't think there's much evidence to say that his performances are declining (and the statistical evidence above would suggest he's still as good as any 'keeper in the league) and I think seeing Ali on MoTD every week (and a general 'grass is greener' mind-set) has given people itchy trigger fingers, wanting to move him on now. If others think differently that's fair enough.

However, there's ways of letting him go, and the one implied in the article that spawned this thread (drop him with immediate effect for the remainder of the season, look to get rid in the summer), would be a disrespectful and petty way to go about doing it IMO, particularly if done as a reaction to last Sunday.

Why just Jussi? Me? There would be 7 or 8 others keeping him company!

Btw I've never said Mandy was disloyal, he would have got the bullet at a knock down price to cut losses earlier for me, nowt to do with loyalty.

[Montreal Wanderer]

You cannot let sentiment get in the way of business decisions if you want to stay competitive, though it is possible to treat loyal servants with dignity. If it is time for Jussi to be replaced with younger, cheaper and possibly better alternatives (and I think it may be), I would assume management would sit down and discuss the alternatives with him. Would he like to retire? Would he like to be sold to another Premiership team? Would he like to be released from the remaining year of his contract? Etc. Involve him in the decision and outcome.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Out of interest, I've not got an itchy trigger finger and I'm not advocating change for change's sake. Nor do I think Jussi's performances have dropped off a cliff, although there seems to be more widespread suspicion, and that's a hard road to U-turn on.

I'm just saying that we aren't short of alternatives - indeed by some accounts we have three excellent goalkeepers. Do we need as many goalkeepers as central midfielders? No. Do we need to spend the little money we've got wisely? Yes. It would help if - and it's a big if - we could respectfully, painlessly get Jussi off the wage bill and go with AAH/Bogdan/Lainton as the three keepers. We don't need three "first team" keepers - how often is the No.3 used? And if necessary, don't clubs just bleat for an emergency loan? If Bogdan's ready for the first team, and we know AAH is, have a kid as back-up – and spend the wages where they're needed.

[jmjhb]

I would loan Bogdan out to a Championship team for next season and leave AAH and Jussi to contest the number 1 spot once again.

[Tombwfc]

I'm just saying that we aren't short of alternatives - indeed by some accounts we have three excellent goalkeepers. Do we need as many goalkeepers as central midfielders? No. Do we need to spend the little money we've got wisely? Yes. It would help if - and it's a big if - we could respectfully, painlessly get Jussi off the wage bill and go with AAH/Bogdan/Lainton as the three keepers. We don't need three "first team" keepers - how often is the No.3 used? And if necessary, don't clubs just bleat for an emergency loan? If Bogdan's ready for the first team, and we know AAH is, have a kid as back-up – and spend the wages where they're needed.

We don't need to, and won't, keep all three of them for much longer - that much is obvious.

I don't really get your point though - the only reason for getting rid of Jussi is if Coyle believes Al Habsi to be a significant improvement. If he does, fair enough.

If he doesn't, this other logic about painlessly generating funds doesn't make that much sense. Al Habsi is a saleable asset who'd command anything between £3-5mil, he's also (if another thread on here is to be believed) on remarkably high wages for an understudy goalkeeper.

Jussi is 36 years old, has a year left on his contract and is very well settled in the area. Even presuming we could force him to leave, he'd have to be on astronomical wages for this last year of his contract to be worth £3mil + Al Habsi's wages.

In an ideal world I'm sure we'd continue to farm Al Habsi out on loan again (which is presumably fairly profitable anyway - IIRC Wigan are supposed to have paid us £1mil for the loan, although they supposedly see it more as a downpayment) and then make the decision next year, when it really would be painless to let Jussi go. That might be a luxury we can't afford though.

[hisroyalgingerness]

I think the thing is how far ahead do you want to plan for success, success for us likely being another cup run and European qualification. Are we one or two signings away from that next season? Maybe. But what about the season after when Davo really is creaking at the limbs and Jussi pushing late 30s.

There's an opportunity for a "rebuilding" season, giving Ali his second (only second) full season in the top flight to get even better, and rebuilding the forward line from scratch. The noises being made about Cahill suggests that he will also be sold for big money in the summer.

But then, is the last point. How much can you shake up? For me, any transfer window which could potentially see Jussi, Cahill and Elmander leave is too much upheaval, on top of losing a few fringe players and there potentially being the likes of Taylor, Petrov and Davo to make a decision on.

[CAPSLOCK]

So, remove Cahill, Jussi and Davies in one season, all of whom have played just about every game in a very successful season

Is Sammy Lee posting on here?

[hisroyalgingerness]

I think I make that point too, you still pissed from last week?

[CAPSLOCK]

Yes...I find it makes me happier

[Worthy4England]

My view FWIW, Jussi may have done better on a couple, but when it comes down to it, it was like being last man standing a Rorke's Drift.

Did I mention anywhere that Robinson is a pub defender? Much more culpable for at least 3 of the 5...

[Lord Kangana]

They'll all be classed as "like having new signings" when they have a good pre-season anyway.


YHIHF.