Honestly what needs to be done ?

[Hoboh]

OK, Prufrock, you can grind an argument into the floor. Apparently that's important in these parts.

But do you and all your coaching badges disagree with 1Ho2's central point, that defensive organisation is sadly lacking, presumably either through poor coaching, lack of coaching or ignoring the coaching?

Even defenders who may be good individually (which half of ours aren't) need to train hard and constantly in order to play together as a coherent unit which can flex between holding a line, closing down quickly and hunting in pairs to isolate the man on the ball.

I don't excuse the midfield from blame - hence my point about CMs who are supposed to be shielding the defence, not backing off until they're stood on the edge of the penality area - but even playing behind a defensive liability like Petrov doesn't excuse the number of times Robinson gets caught alarmingly out of position.

In defence of the, err, defence the constant bombardment it suffers because the ball doesn't "stick" up front or in midfield doesn't help at all.

Watching Newcastle on Monday Vs Stoke, their midfield kept the ball fairly well and the strikers did their bit by moving well and pressing up the pitch. Again, the ability of the forward players to create helped too..

It does help when your 4 man defence don't come up 50% short on a regular basis!

If our fullbacks were playing Ronaldo every week I'd understand it but they ain't so they have no excuse.

Midfield play in Iron boots welded to the spot!

[Prufrock]

OK, Prufrock, you can grind an argument into the floor. Apparently that's important in these parts.

But do you and all your coaching badges disagree with 1Ho2's central point, that defensive organisation is sadly lacking, presumably either through poor coaching, lack of coaching or ignoring the coaching?

Even defenders who may be good individually (which half of ours aren't) need to train hard and constantly in order to play together as a coherent unit which can flex between holding a line, closing down quickly and hunting in pairs to isolate the man on the ball.

I don't excuse the midfield from blame - hence my point about CMs who are supposed to be shielding the defence, not backing off until they're stood on the edge of the penality area - but even playing behind a defensive liability like Petrov doesn't excuse the number of times Robinson gets caught alarmingly out of position.

It was only ever meant to be a joke about Tony Adams being a foo! And as for grinding it to the floor that was an elaborate joke about a ferry disaster. Apparently beer thinks that was a good idea! It depends what Humpy's point is, if it is that organisation and a settled back four are important then I'd agree, if it is that this has also been lacking this season I'd tentatively agree, and if it is that this is the major cause of our woes I would disagree. We have been shambolic defensively but you don't defend as a four. Or rather we do, and that's why we're fooked. A good team defends with 11, or at the very least with 9, we defend with 6 (Jussi, back four, and NRC), 7 (include Eagles) sometimes. Some of the others try a bit, but can't do it, others don't try. Added to that, they are a set of useless feckers when it comes to any movement off the ball/idea of what to do. The sight of combined £8.50 Ashley 'Wank' Williams and that Mark 'who' Gower splitting, keeping possession and giving it to willing midfielders was depressing given we've got one of the most gifted centre halves in the country and are supposedly aiming for some variant of 'passing' football. All in all, I don't think the back four have been worse than the midfield over the course of the season, and the last two weeks they (Cahill and Wheater in particular) have been our stand out performers. We were comfortable first half last week, the only time they looked like getting at us was again when the midfield decided to let them run 50 yards without even pressuring them.

FWIW I also disagree that Robbo's problem is his positioning, he normally gets himself in pretty good positions, it's his decision-making that is bobbins. He gets himself set, and then usually flies into tackles he has no chance of making, or worse, does well to jockey and wait for support, and then when support arrives, still gives them acres to do whatever they want. In fairness Gardner is equally shit in that regard, and probably worse positionally, but he has the pace to recover.

[One Hump Or Two?]

Pru, you're going to ever more elaborate lengths to appear to disagree with what I said, while actually saying more or less the same thing.

"The midfield decided to let them run 50 yards without even pressuring them". Yeah. I said twice in earlier posts that so-called holding midfielders were guilty of constantly backing off and failing to hold their distance in front of the defenders they're supposed to be screening.

I never said a team defends as a four. My first post didn't even mention the back four, it talked about team organisation and setting up in a disciplined shape. I only mentioned the back four when someone else questioned whether the whole idea of defensive coaching was overrated, to back up my point that you can improve as a defensive unit through the right training.

I would love us to defend coherently as 11, but that seems like setting our sights a bit high given how things are now. 8 excluding keeper would do. (At least Jussi holds his position. Glued to the white line.)

The Robinson point is just semantics, you say "gives them acres", I say "out of position", tomayto, tomato, etc.

[mrpiccollo]

what we need to do

formation

4 1 2 2 1 or 451 however you want to look at it we need to stop our defensive frailtys



jussi
stensson cahill wheater robbo
(cdm)-muamba (covering back 4 sweeper style clear up pass)
(RCM)-reocoker (cover fullback support attack)
(lcm)-pratley (cover fullback assist attacks from deep)
(RF)-eagles (playing wide and coming in to the centre and supporting lone striker)
(lf)- petrov (fully offensive role as we all know hes not great defensivly wide play stretch fullbacks bring midfeild and forwards into play more !! really needs to make up for his lack of defensive ability on our own half by chasing down the ball offensivly much more^^)
(st) -ngog ( workhorse chase down everything !! get on everything !! challenge for everything!! make there back 4 work so hard marking him out that space opens up for others behind)


clearly our strongest team as SDK is so past it its embarrassing klasnic adds too little pressure on opposition defences they get an almost free game vs him

also get tuncay involved in the first team theres a reason we signed him its because he has flair workrate and the ability to score with his head and feet while bringing other players into the game possibly replacement for petrov in a similar formation to the ones ive listed yet insted of playing wide get him in centrally to create more problems for opposition cm cdm and cb's

all in all dont allow wide play from opposition teams block play around our box and play out fast

offensive pressure and HOLD ON TO THE DAMNED BALL !!!!
Possession possession possession!!

[thebish]

(from the BBC ticker) - we just need to be patient....

25 years ago today, when Alex Ferguson took over at Manchester United the bottom 4 clubs were Chelsea, Man united, Newcastle United, and Man City. The top 4 today? The same.

therefore - in 25 yrs time - Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn and Wolves will be dominating the league

[Bruce Rioja]

(from the BBC ticker) - we just need to be patient....

25 years ago today, when Alex Ferguson took over at Manchester United the bottom 4 clubs were Chelsea, Man united, Newcastle United, and Man City. The top 4 today? The same.

therefore - in 25 yrs time - Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn and Wolves will be dominating the league

Yeah, but which one?

[Choppers]

Petrov does what Petrov does. He always fires the ball in first time, no messing about.

The problem is that our attack is so lead footed that while he's firing it in they're not even across the half-way line.

He's doing the right thing just not at the right time.

I actually see his qualities

But, seeing as theres nothing coming from it, why play him?

Because we sold the player who was his competition, and actually better than him?

As for what needs to be done, I'd say it was obvious - STOP CONCEDING GOALS.

To do this, Muamba comes back in, Petrov goes out, we play 4-2-3-1 (N'Gog up top, Davo is shot imho, I'd even play Klasnic ahead of him) that isn't completely reliant on pacy (haha) wingers who can't defend.

------------------Jussi---------------------

Steinsson------Cahill----Knight------Robinson

------------Muamba---Reo Coker------------

--------Eagles-------------M Davies--------

----------------Tuncay--------------------

-----------------N'Gog---------------------

With that, there's enough defensive cover in the back 6, and should be enough creativity with the front 4.

In the transfer window though, we need a new left and right back (loan, until Mears can play perhaps), a loan keeper, a new centre back (2 if Cahill goes), so yeah, better start checking behind the sofa for spare cash.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

From what I've seen Knight and Cahill are a poor partnership (i think they always have been), Reo-Coker and whoever partners him are not good enough to compete with any other midfield in the Prem, meaning we dont see enough quality possession, neither SKD or Ngog are going to score goals, Eagles has a poor end product, Petrov has a good end product but poor work rate. Oh and our full backs seem to lack confidence, and Jussi is now looking a poor Prem keeper, and Bogdan has lost his confidence after the Chelsea game.

So there are lots of problems. To start to resolve weve got to start keeping clean sheets or at least be hard to score against. Right now we concede basic goals from all over the pitch. We need to play 4-5-1. I'd play Wheater and Cahill together for a prolonged spell, keep Steinsson and Robinson as our full backs. At least that is a tough agressive experienced defence capable of making it hard for teams to breach. We MUST play three in central midfield at least till Holden's fit. I'd play Reo-Coker, Muamba and M.Davies. Lots of legs, and some decent ability too. Keep those three in there for a few games. I'd drop Petrov and Eagles and replace them with Kakuta and Tuncay in the wide positions. They will work harder, and Tuncay can produce a goal from nothing. Up front I'd like to see SKD in there - even if he can only last a hour. His physicality alone will keep defences uncomfortable even if he is unlikely to score, and even if he isnt what he was. So:

---------------------------Jussi-------------------------
Steinsson--------Wheater-----Cahill-------Robinson
--------------------------Reo-Coker---------------------
-----------------Muamba--------M.Davies--------------
Kakuta--------------------------------------------Tuncay
------------------------------SKD--------------------------

[Prufrock]

Pru, you're going to ever more elaborate lengths to appear to disagree with what I said, while actually saying more or less the same thing.

"The midfield decided to let them run 50 yards without even pressuring them". Yeah. I said twice in earlier posts that so-called holding midfielders were guilty of constantly backing off and failing to hold their distance in front of the defenders they're supposed to be screening.

I never said a team defends as a four. My first post didn't even mention the back four, it talked about team organisation and setting up in a disciplined shape. I only mentioned the back four when someone else questioned whether the whole idea of defensive coaching was overrated, to back up my point that you can improve as a defensive unit through the right training.

I would love us to defend coherently as 11, but that seems like setting our sights a bit high given how things are now. 8 excluding keeper would do. (At least Jussi holds his position. Glued to the white line.)

The Robinson point is just semantics, you say "gives them acres", I say "out of position", tomayto, tomato, etc.

I never said I disagreed with you, I pointed out Tony Adams is fecking clueless. It's like saying 2+2=4 coz Puff the Magic Dragon says so. You'd still be right!

Anyway, t'were meant to be a joke, and yeah, I agree with the rest of that post up to Robinson. Everyone I know when they talk about positioning means starting points, by which his positioning is fine, sometimes good positioning IS leaving them in acres of space (ball on the opposite flank, your winger is stood on the touchline). Robinson's positioning is pretty good, then he goes charging into tackles he'll never win which means he gets left out of position. That isn't bad positioning (he had got himself in the right place) it is poor decision making. I think they're different things.

[One Hump Or Two?]

Fair cop on Robinson, I was just being awkward, but I understand the distinction really. For me, both his positioning AND his decision-making are poor. He often gets tucked into the centre or pulled too far upfield at the wrong times, leaving vast spaces for opposition wingers to exploit; and when he is in the right place at the right time, he still contrives to do the wrong thing (or simply gets beaten far too easily).

Our defensive frailties prior to Stoke are far from his fault alone, and he does try hard, so I feel sort of bad for going on about him. But after a while his sheer uselessness becomes fascinating - he's easily the worst player I've ever seen get a run of games at this level.

[CAPSLOCK]

he's easily the worst player I've ever seen get a run of games at this level.

A good few oft repeat that of Muamba

They're full of shit, too

[lovethesmellofnapalm]

Robinson's shite
too small
not athletic enough and
as ugly a bulldog licking the piss off a nettle.

[Lord Kangana]

I always think he looks a bit like Gary The Enfield to be truthful.

[Prufrock]

Fair cop on Robinson, I was just being awkward, but I understand the distinction really. For me, both his positioning AND his decision-making are poor. He often gets tucked into the centre or pulled too far upfield at the wrong times, leaving vast spaces for opposition wingers to exploit; and when he is in the right place at the right time, he still contrives to do the wrong thing (or simply gets beaten far too easily).

Our defensive frailties prior to Stoke are far from his fault alone, and he does try hard, so I feel sort of bad for going on about him. But after a while his sheer uselessness becomes fascinating - he's easily the worst player I've ever seen get a run of games at this level.

He's limited. His positioning isn't always perfect, and no doubt you'll be able to find occasions where it is poor, he is fairly limited generally. I don't think it is his, or our, biggest problem by any stretch. I think his biggest problem recently has been lack of confidence (which means, being the character he is, he has to overcompensate with stupid decisions).

However,

He isn't even nearly the worst player I've ever seen get a run of games at this level. Not even the worst I've seen for us. Better than Gareth Farelly, Bo Hansen, Gerald Cid to randomly name a few (unfairly, perhaps). He is also better than Henrik Pedersen, though crucially not as funny. Somebody might also be tempted to suggest he is better than Fredi 'utter wank except for half an hour, though he wasn't swedish' Bobic was. He is pretty much Gavin McCann at left back (not right wing). Limited, though competent, but a massive fecking scapegoat.

[One Hump Or Two?]

Farrelly - hmm, not much in it. Bo Hansen, didn't he spend most of his time with us in the championship? Cid doesn't count - not enough games. Disagree with Pedersen; a comical carthorse at times but he did score 20 odd goals for us IIRC and gave us a hard-running outlet up front. As for McCann, he was leagues ahead of Robinson in pedigree and footballing ability; who was unlucky to spend most of his time for us playing in a crap, negative set-up sent out by a crap manager.

I don't think I'm scapegoating Robinson; one left back doesn't make the difference between a good team and a bad team. I'm calling his limitations - on the scope of which we obviously disagree - as I see them.

Graham Bell just popped into my head when I was thinking about terrible Wanderers players. Remember him? He was so bad at football that the only possible reaction was an amused shake of the head. Like a ginger whippet rollerskating on ice.

[officer_dibble]

Cid didnt have enough games for a reason!! I'd seen enough

[officer_dibble]

John o kane worse than robbo
otsemoboor as well
nicky southall
steve mcanespie
bryan small
And they are just full backs from the last 20 ish years

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Thing I always think of with Bo Hansen is that at one point, after replacing red-carded Jussi and making a couple of saves, he had a higher save percentage than the rags' latest dodgy keeper, Fabien Barthez.

Anyway, carry on.

[William the White]

John o kane worse than robbo
otsemoboor as well
nicky southall
steve mcanespie
bryan small
And they are just full backs from the last 20 ish years

All worse than robbo... with only a fleeting look at the top flight for any... but, fact is, robbo is our only serious choice atm... don't matter how much he 'should be dropped'... until Jan we have no one better... And then we are likely to have a higher priority... the centre back to replace the England squad member...