Are we a good set of supporters?

BL3 · Post by **BL3** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:52 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:And essentially the reason crowds went down over a period of time and have gone down further since may well be entangled in a web of complex and varied reasons, but I'd still bet there is a fair old correlation to final league position in there!

You can't underestimate the value of the occasional trophy either, particularly if it's within the lifetime of the majority of the supporters. When Brian Clough joined Forest, they were averaging less than 12,000. Even when they were promoted ahead of us, we had far bigger attendances than them. Add a league title, two European cups, a couple of League Cups and all of a sudden they're now one of the better supported clubs in the country, despite having had no real success for years.

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:05 pm

BL3 wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:And essentially the reason crowds went down over a period of time and have gone down further since may well be entangled in a web of complex and varied reasons, but I'd still bet there is a fair old correlation to final league position in there!
You can't underestimate the value of the occasional trophy either, particularly if it's within the lifetime of the majority of the supporters. When Brian Clough joined Forest, they were averaging less than 12,000. Even when they were promoted ahead of us, we had far bigger attendances than them. Add a league title, two European cups, a couple of League Cups and all of a sudden they're now one of the better supported clubs in the country, despite having had no real success for years.

Interesting though that only 6,960 turned out to watch the FA Cup holders' first defence of it, and I don't know how many of them were from Milton Keynes.

BWFC_Insane · Post by **BWFC_Insane** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:08 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
BL3 wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:And essentially the reason crowds went down over a period of time and have gone down further since may well be entangled in a web of complex and varied reasons, but I'd still bet there is a fair old correlation to final league position in there!
You can't underestimate the value of the occasional trophy either, particularly if it's within the lifetime of the majority of the supporters. When Brian Clough joined Forest, they were averaging less than 12,000. Even when they were promoted ahead of us, we had far bigger attendances than them. Add a league title, two European cups, a couple of League Cups and all of a sudden they're now one of the better supported clubs in the country, despite having had no real success for years.
Interesting though that only 6,960 turned out to watch the FA Cup holders' first defence of it, and I don't know how many of them were from Milton Keynes.

Indeed. Though Wigan's average attendance this season is only a few hundred down on ours. Based on their "history" as a football club I'd say that is better for them than ourselves.

coffeymagic · Post by **coffeymagic** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:17 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
bobo the clown wrote:We've always been cynical ... we sre as a team. But you need something to cheer and to believe in.

Go back to the Ian Greaves and the Bruce Rioch days and support was almost unquestioning. Even the Todd times were mostly well supported. The Sam days were, typical of the man, "us against the World" but a degree of lack of love for the style. Since then it's been downhill and with managers who haven't generally presented us with style to support.
Chester City away 'Rioch out'.......

While there were cetainly quite a few fans grumbling at that game I don't think there actually was a serious and sustained 'Rioch Out'. The fans weren't happy at 2-0 down anway. However the fight back during that game (away to Chester - Christ almighty you thinkit's bad now?) was a real pivotal moment in Bolton Wanderers history and sparked off the whole Rioch era and modern day BWFC as we know it.

Perhaps Dougie has that moment just around the corner.

Dave Sutton's barnet · Post by **Dave Sutton's barnet** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:37 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
BL3 wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:And essentially the reason crowds went down over a period of time and have gone down further since may well be entangled in a web of complex and varied reasons, but I'd still bet there is a fair old correlation to final league position in there!
You can't underestimate the value of the occasional trophy either, particularly if it's within the lifetime of the majority of the supporters. When Brian Clough joined Forest, they were averaging less than 12,000. Even when they were promoted ahead of us, we had far bigger attendances than them. Add a league title, two European cups, a couple of League Cups and all of a sudden they're now one of the better supported clubs in the country, despite having had no real success for years.
Interesting though that only 6,960 turned out to watch the FA Cup holders' first defence of it, and I don't know how many of them were from Milton Keynes.

Again, BL3's right though. (Wigan are an exception to most rules.)

There's also the point that in areas of multiple occupation you get a lot of generational parochialism.

Bruce Rioja · Post by **Bruce Rioja** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:01 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:
BL3 wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:And essentially the reason crowds went down over a period of time and have gone down further since may well be entangled in a web of complex and varied reasons, but I'd still bet there is a fair old correlation to final league position in there!
You can't underestimate the value of the occasional trophy either, particularly if it's within the lifetime of the majority of the supporters. When Brian Clough joined Forest, they were averaging less than 12,000. Even when they were promoted ahead of us, we had far bigger attendances than them. Add a league title, two European cups, a couple of League Cups and all of a sudden they're now one of the better supported clubs in the country, despite having had no real success for years.
Interesting though that only 6,960 turned out to watch the FA Cup holders' first defence of it, and I don't know how many of them were from Milton Keynes.
Again, BL3's right though. (Wigan are an exception to most rules.)

There's also the point that in areas of multiple occupation you get a lot of generational parochialism.

Oh I'm not saying that he isn't, generally. Whether Wigan will ever become a 'football town' remains to be seen though and judging by that piss-poor turn out at their first defence of the FA Cup then I don't see it happening within our lifetime even if they went on to emulate Forest's achievements.

Dave Sutton's barnet · Post by **Dave Sutton's barnet** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:10 pm

Exactly - exception to the rule.

For the record, they got 8,199 for last year's Third Round game, at home to Bournemouth. (They needed a replay, winning 1-0 at Bournemouth then 1-0 at Macclesfield, 4-1 at Huddersfield and 3-0 at Everton, sealing their manager's move.)

coffeymagic · Post by **coffeymagic** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:58 pm

It was funny to see OT emptying like everyone was in a rush to get their boats back to Dublin or flight to Korea.

Why after years of Fergie Time wins anyone would leave there early amazes me.

On that note I think it's not only that the opposition aren't scared of United anymore neither are the refs.

It's like they're getting their own back for all the years they've given United decisions out of fear of Ferguson threatening their careers.

Eff 'em.

Moyes in more!

bobo the clown · Post by **bobo the clown** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:01 pm

coffeymagic wrote:It was funny to see OT emptying like everyone was in a rush to get their boats back to Dublin or flight to Korea.

Why after years of Fergie Time wins anyone would leave there early amazes me.

On that note I think it's not only that the opposition aren't scared of United anymore neither are the refs.

It's like they're getting their own back for all the years they've given United decisions out of fear of Ferguson threatening their careers.

Eff 'em.

Moyes in more!

I think this is absolutely a major point.

Andy Waller · Post by **Andy Waller** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:21 pm

At work there's people from quite a few different clubs and I've noticed indifference about watching their supported clubs from a lot of people.

I don't really want to be part of the Reebok "Boo" boys, but could I be part of the Reebok "Occasional Meh" Boys?

Dave Sutton's barnet · Post by **Dave Sutton's barnet** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:24 pm

Yep, AW, the bigger problem is not derision but indifference. At least those who boo are in a seat, usually paid for. More and more people (across most clubs) are deciding not to bother...

Lost Leopard Spot · Post by **Lost Leopard Spot** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:34 pm

I've got no idea whether we are good supporters or not, so I've not voted in the poll. Personally however, I do not boo - mainly because I cannot be arsed. When we play shit I don't cheer much either. As I don't live close to the ground I only make the occasional foray and in some seasons go to more away matches than home ones: so in terms of myself I'm a terrible supporter, but however, I've never deprived anybody of a seat (never been to a sell-out match yet) and therefore I contribute positively to the club by donating money that otherwise would not be going into the coffers, so I'll not beat myself up about it.

Andy Waller · Post by **Andy Waller** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:41 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Yep, AW, the bigger problem is not derision but indifference. At least those who boo are in a seat, usually paid for. More and more people (across most clubs) are deciding not to bother...

I can't really see the point in boo-ing but I think the frustration of players just sauntering around gets to people.

Knight's mistakes weren't really down to lack of ability (I'm not saying he's Pele) but more of lack of concentration and what I personally feel is a "I'm way too cool for all of this" attitude.

One person shouting "You _____ useless _____ ______ idiot ______ baldy ______ _______ ______ lanky pillock!!!" (fill in blanks as appropriate) gets lost in the crowd, but at least a boo can be heard?

It adds to the frustration when you've paid for your season ticket and you know you've another half a season to come...

I may start a campaign: "Less booing and more boiing" see if it catches on.

At worst, at least I'll be warmer.

StaffsTrotter · Post by **StaffsTrotter** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:58 pm

Once read the maxim that Bolton only got really big crowds when the people from Bolton actually turned out and that traditionally we had quite a fan base from the areas to the west of the town. I know its a long time ago but if you looked at the addresses of those killed in the burnden disaster, theres quite a proportion from 'out of town'. Certainly makes me wonder to what extent the emergence of wigan has 'pinched' our support

StaffsTrotter · Post by **StaffsTrotter** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:05 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Yep, AW, the bigger problem is not derision but indifference. At least those who boo are in a seat, usually paid for. More and more people (across most clubs) are deciding not to bother...

agree with the indifference/ apathy point, think was noted the dougie out thread as probable reason why no pitchforks have yet been raised, as they weren't with coyle - people just vote with their feet

not sure about the more people/ most clubs point - thought attendance figures & trends were good in PL and FL - or have I just been taken in by the marketing men ?

Dave Sutton's barnet · Post by **Dave Sutton's barnet** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:08 pm

StaffsTrotter wrote:
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Yep, AW, the bigger problem is not derision but indifference. At least those who boo are in a seat, usually paid for. More and more people (across most clubs) are deciding not to bother...
agree with the indifference/ apathy point, think was noted the dougie out thread as probable reason why no pitchforks have yet been raised, as they weren't with coyle - people just vote with their feet

not sure about the more people/ most clubs point - thought attendance figures & trends were good in PL and FL - or have I just been taken in by the marketing men ?

Attendances across PL/FL are slightly up, but from a wider base of people. Figures aren't as easily available but there aren't as many regular matchgoers - ST holders don't renew, regulars go less often, those who might go three or four times a season don't bother because of seating arrangements etc.

StaffsTrotter · Post by **StaffsTrotter** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:19 pm

Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:
StaffsTrotter wrote:
Dave Sutton's barnet wrote:Yep, AW, the bigger problem is not derision but indifference. At least those who boo are in a seat, usually paid for. More and more people (across most clubs) are deciding not to bother...
agree with the indifference/ apathy point, think was noted the dougie out thread as probable reason why no pitchforks have yet been raised, as they weren't with coyle - people just vote with their feet

not sure about the more people/ most clubs point - thought attendance figures & trends were good in PL and FL - or have I just been taken in by the marketing men ?
Attendances across PL/FL are slightly up, but from a wider base of people. Figures aren't as easily available but there aren't as many regular matchgoers - ST holders don't renew, regulars go less often, those who might go three or four times a season don't bother because of seating arrangements etc.

confused by that last part. thought you were saying that more people only attend on an irregular, smaller number of times per season - so more people would only attend 3 or 4 times a season ?

given the trends you've stated some clubs must have huge P-T fan bases

Dave Sutton's barnet · Post by **Dave Sutton's barnet** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:20 pm

Yeah I didn't make that very clear.

Those blokes down the pub who used to come along with you four or five times a season? They probably don't bother now that seating means they can't go with you.

Their places might be taken by newcomers, people trying it out, but quite a few find that it's not as much as fun as watching on telly - in the lounge or the tap-room.

ST holders failing to renew - that's always happened as blokes get older and busier. Difference now is that there isn't a younger generation replacing them in anything like enough numbers: more competition for the young pound, and to be honest football's overpriced and under-reliable.

Clubs have definitely extended their "reach" into "untapped" "markets". But the new "customers" aren't as blindly loyal as we once were.

BWFC_Insane · Post by **BWFC_Insane** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:25 pm

StaffsTrotter wrote:Once read the maxim that Bolton only got really big crowds when the people from Bolton actually turned out and that traditionally we had quite a fan base from the areas to the west of the town. I know its a long time ago but if you looked at the addresses of those killed in the burnden disaster, theres quite a proportion from 'out of town'. Certainly makes me wonder to what extent the emergence of wigan has 'pinched' our support

Interesting. I find this sort of thing fascinating. I mean Wigan's 'extra' fans have come from somewhere.....

bobo the clown · Post by **bobo the clown** » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:35 pm

Yep. Bolton's out-of-town fans were from Wigan, Leigh, that North Salford area (Swinton, Pendlebury etc.) and the South Chorley area, as well as a good number from St. Helens and even Warrington.

Given that few people had cars back then these were fair old trecks.

People there must have CHOSEN Bolton as they had the options of the Manchester Clubs (Salford especially), Blackburn, Preston and the Liverpool clubs.

Oddly Darwin seems to look largely North, while I've never heard of someone from say the Bradshaw area looking to Burnley (unless originally from there).