The Only way is Up? - The Gooners match thread

[Armchair Wanderer]

So would you swap Elmander for KD?

Hmm, this season?

[Lord Kangana]

We couldn't afford his wages, so its pointless even contemplating it.

[thebish]

Elmander and Taylor were still playing when we were shit last season.

Aye one of them, the striker in central midfield alongside Gardner. Point was that their running and work off the ball that nobody noticed helped us out massive when we were under the cosh in games. Let's face it Davies only looked decent last season when Elmander was doing all his running for him up front!

if nobody noticed it - how do you know it happened?

[BWFC_Insane]

So we were still shit when he was playing then, despite his running.

We hadn't had our worst ever start to a premiership season or lost at home to Norwich, and we weren't bottom.

[Armchair Wanderer]

Do we need a Super Kev thread yet?

[BWFC_Insane]

Elmander was our top scorer last season. And only got to play half of it up top. Of course we'd be miles better off with Elmander than Davies.

More pertinent question seeing as money is an issue, would we have been better off using the wages and fees of Tuncay and NGog to fund keeping Elmander?

[Lord Kangana]

Eddie Davies wouldn't pay Elmander's wages. Whether he could or not.

We had no midfield at the back end of last year.

Norwich are the only team that we haven't beaten this season who haven't spent squillions.

[BWFC_Insane]

Eddie Davies wouldn't pay Elmander's wages. Whether he could or not.

We had no midfield at the back end of last year.

Norwich are the only team that we haven't beaten this season who haven't spent squillions.

Coyle made the decision on Elmander. He was quoted as saying 'there is a lot I can do with that money to make us better'.

Perhaps Tuncay and NGog will make us better in the long term. Though it's going to be hard if one of thems always on the bench to judge them.

[keveh]

How is Elmander getting on at Galatasary?

[Lord Kangana]

He probably took the decision to spend £20m less than his predecsesor in your eyes aswell then I'd guess.

[seanworth]

Doesn't moaning about the loss of Elmander belong in the knee jerker thread?

[thebish]

Eddie Davies wouldn't pay Elmander's wages. Whether he could or not.

We had no midfield at the back end of last year.

Norwich are the only team that we haven't beaten this season who haven't spent squillions.

Coyle made the decision on Elmander. He was quoted as saying 'there is a lot I can do with that money to make us better'.

Perhaps Tuncay and NGog will make us better in the long term. Though it's going to be hard if one of thems always on the bench to judge them.

we don't really know who took the decision - but your quote certainly does not prove your theory that Coyle made it.

[thebish]

Elmander was our top scorer last season. And only got to play half of it up top. Of course we'd be miles better off with Elmander than Davies.

hmmm... that really is simply rash guesswork.

1. we don't know what resources were released that would have had to have been spent on Elmander.
2. we don't know who was purchased/loaned who wouldn't have been had those resources not been released.

so - we have no objective or sensible way of making any judgement about whether we would have been miles better off keeping Elmander and offloading Davies (nor was there any real interest in KD anyway - nor any evidence he wanted to go - so how would you have proposed offloading KD?)

3. nor (given the fixtures and injuries) do I think we've seen what it is Coyle is trying to build yet - or how good it might be.

[BWFC_Insane]

Elmander was our top scorer last season. And only got to play half of it up top. Of course we'd be miles better off with Elmander than Davies.

hmmm... that really is simply rash guesswork.

1. we don't know what resources were released that would have had to have been spent on Elmander.
2. we don't know who was purchased/loaned who wouldn't have been had those resources not been released.

so - we have no objective or sensible way of making any judgement about whether we would have been miles better off keeping Elmander and offloading Davies (nor was there any real interest in KD anyway - nor any evidence he wanted to go - so how would you have proposed offloading KD?)

3. nor (given the fixtures and injuries) do I think we've seen what it is Coyle is trying to build yet - or how good it might be.

Aye cos discussing the relevant merits of players and managers on a message board is all about concrete evidence.

FFS.

I'm waiting for someone to make an argument as to why were better off with Davies over our top scorer from last season. I'd suggest there would be few takers for that argument.

[Lord Kangana]

And we're all waiting on about 10 other questions on points you've made.

Play fair.

[BWFC_Insane]

And we're all waiting on about 10 other questions on points you've made.

Play fair.

I can't see any questions. Shall we start examining the favourite PPG stat that was wheeled out almost weekly for 2 years?

I'm guessing not!

[thebish]

Aye cos discussing the relevant merits of players and managers on a message board is all about concrete evidence.

FFS.

I'm waiting for someone to make an argument as to why were better off with Davies over our top scorer from last season. I'd suggest there would be few takers for that argument.

Hmmm... you said "Of course we'd be miles better off with Elmander than Davies." - that kind of sentence suggests that you feel that it is self-evident - the truth is, it isn't.

We are not living in a world where it is as simple as saying all other things being equal - would it be better to have Davo or Elmo - because all other things simply would not be equal - not even close.

so - assuming you want a discussion in the real world rather than some kind of fantasy world - we HAVE to take into consideration what the implications of keeping Elmo might have been - and none of us really know what those consequences would have been but - hazarding a guess...

1. we'd still have Davo - he was not easily offloadable
2. we might not have been able to strengthen the midfield in the way we have (which - with serious injuries to Lee and Mears - I'm very glad we did!)
3. we might not have afforded Ngog and/or Tuncay

[Lord Kangana]

Sorry, you're wanting us to compare a manager who had a net spend of £20m more in the same number of transfer windows?

Its not even in the same f*cking postcode...

So heres a question, which do you believe to be a more plausible (not right, just more plausible) statement:

1) Megson left us in the relegation zone after spending all our money, more than any other manager in our history. We had to reduce our wage bill and squad by any means.

2) Megson had a masterplan, and Coyle has simply failed by not spending more than his predecessor. Money which is clearly available. Adjusted for inflation in the transfer market that would mean that Coyle has about £25-£30M at his disposal that he hasn't spent.

[Choppers]

Elmander and Taylor were our hardest workers and covered more ground than anyone else. I'd suggest we are missig the selfless contributions they gave for the team more than anything else. It is quite likely that their workrate allowed us to play the 4-4-2 system last season as they were prepared to cover gaps tirelessly!

Taylor gave us more than Petrov imho.

The writing was on the wall when we signed Petrov though.

[BWFC_Insane]

Sorry, you're wanting us to compare a manager who had a net spend of £20m more in the same number of transfer windows?

Its not even in the same f*cking postcode...

So heres a question, which do you believe to be a more plausible (not right, just more plausible) statement:

1) Megson left us in the relegation zone after spending all our money, more than any other manager in our history. We had to reduce our wage bill and squad by any means.

2) Megson had a masterplan, and Coyle has simply failed by not spending more than his predecessor. Money which is clearly available. Adjusted for inflation in the transfer market that would mean that Coyle has about £25-£30M at his disposal that he hasn't spent.

My point has been all along that the spending in the premiership shifted dramatically towards the end of Allardyce's reign and onwards. Clubs like Sunderland, Stoke, City, Spurs, who we'd finished above previously, suddenly started to throw money at it.

Whether we are spending 7M net a season or breaking even it doesn't make any difference against the spending of the top 8 or 9 and even now the likes of QPR.

At the time I argued that Megson probably did as well as we could expect anyone else to do. The days of what we achieved under Allardyce are gone, the landscape has changed.

Coyle came in cos we were bottom three, though we were going at a point a game at the time.

I'd not sack Coyle now, but to suggest hes an infinitely better manager for us than the bloke he replaced is just nonsense. To be quite frank, long term you are on a hiding to nothing managing us, because to remodel us into a sustainable premiership force is probably such a long term project and balancing that alongside survival so tricky that at some point you are going to come unstuck.

I back Coyle because ultimately, like with Megson, long term, where we are is probably where we are going to end up!

In terms of money and resources, nobody knows who Coyle wanted and didn't get, SWP aside! Seeing as he chased Pratley since his Burnley days, NGog for over a season and went back in for ex players in Eagles and Mears we can be pretty sure that they weren't desperado can't get anyone else buys.