Bolton - Leeds

[BWFC_Insane]

Anyhow let's compare ourselves to West Ham, who as you say scraped a play off victory. At this stage they were 4th. After 11 games they were second and remained in the top 3 for the rest of the season.

It doesn't matter what position they occupied for the majority of the season. It's were they finished that counts. Remind us what position Reading were in after 10 games...

Why don't you remind us what happened to the manager that relegated West Ham?

Anyhow once again I ask you, how bad does it have to get before you would consider changing your manager! Or do you think clubs should never ever ever sack a manager?

y'see - someone can agree with your overall conclusion - that Coyle should go - but NOT agree with every charge that you lay at Coyle's door. do you see how that works??

BL3 does not think Coyle should go though........

[Il Pirate]

^

I share your pessimism at times BWFC I but talk about glass being half empty. We were lcuky to draw last night and not lose could have just as easily been said by a Leeds fan. Did you miss the 1st half?

Anyway - according to Paul Daniels and who would doubt him? - luck is just hard work meeting opportunity.

My point being that had Dioufs shot been a few inches lower, we'd have lost. Coyle and his apologists want to talk about all the 'luck' that supposedly goes against us, but aren't as keen to point out at the end we were 'lucky' to not lose.

What's to say we wouldn't have scored four? What's to say the shot wouldn't have hit the underside of the bar and bounced out? If we hadn't scored two, we'd have lost. If JK Rowling was reffing, we may have lost. It's all conjecture. What we do know, is we need to improve and quickly. I don't think Coyle is the man to help do that. However, for the meantime, we need to get behind the team.

[thebish]

Sam hadn't taken them down and produced 18 miserable months of form, littered with mistakes and horrible horrible football.

have you spoken to any west ham fans about the niceness of the football they watched last year in the championship? I have!! (not that it matters - it's just a dumb thing to claim!)

The football we play under Coyle is shite in the main. Odd spark here or there, but mainly turgid stuff.

Thats ok if you get results, but if not......

Home crowd is flat because the performances are mainly flat, tedious and lifeless. For half an hour against Leeds we played with tempo and movement. But that is the exception not the rule.

that may well be the case - but you were claiming that Sam did not have West Ham playing horrible horrible football.

I spoke to west ham fans when they won games and were at the top of the championship - and there was no joy in them - none at all - because they thought they were being made to watch horrible, horrible football.

[BWFC_Insane]

Sam hadn't taken them down and produced 18 miserable months of form, littered with mistakes and horrible horrible football.

have you spoken to any west ham fans about the niceness of the football they watched last year in the championship? I have!! (not that it matters - it's just a dumb thing to claim!)

The football we play under Coyle is shite in the main. Odd spark here or there, but mainly turgid stuff.

Thats ok if you get results, but if not......

Home crowd is flat because the performances are mainly flat, tedious and lifeless. For half an hour against Leeds we played with tempo and movement. But that is the exception not the rule.

that may well be the case - but you were claiming that Sam did not have West Ham playing horrible horrible football.

I spoke to west ham fans when they won games and were at the top of the championship - and there was no joy in them - none at all - because they thought they were being made to watch horrible, horrible football.

Whereas recently on KUMB they were discussing and mostly agreeing giving him a long term contract....

Anyhow, I never said what you claimed, but I'm bored already....

[thebish]

Anyhow, I never said what you claimed, but I'm bored already....

shall i speak to the hand cos the ear's not listening?

[Harry Genshaw]

What's to say we wouldn't have scored four? What's to say the shot wouldn't have hit the underside of the bar and bounced out? If we hadn't scored two, we'd have lost. If JK Rowling was reffing, we may have lost. It's all conjecture. What we do know, is we need to improve and quickly. I don't think Coyle is the man to help do that. However, for the meantime, we need to get behind the team.

Feckin A

[midlands exile]

Sam hadn't taken them down and produced 18 miserable months of form, littered with mistakes and horrible horrible football.

have you spoken to any west ham fans about the niceness of the football they watched last year in the championship? I have!! (not that it matters - it's just a dumb thing to claim!)

Well, seeing that West ham fans unjustifiably derided our glory days as turgid dross, I don't give a fig what their opinions are.

Last season saw West ham get promoted, so the football must definitely been better than the (mostly) garbage we've been served for the last 18 months or so....

[William the White]

Anyhow, I never said what you claimed, but I'm bored already....

shall i speak to the hand cos the ear's not listening?

It's a really bad case of monomania when you even bore yourself...

Though, in this case, understandable... And I sympathise...

[Prufrock]

Bogdan. Soo unconvincing. As Diouf rocked up to take the free kick he was stood kicking his near post, it looked in frustration at the wall, as it came across he took one step back towards the middle then watched them nod it in. I don't know if he could have got there, but he never gave himself a chance.

Harsh indeed to pick on Bogdan for that. Watch it again, Pru. Mills comes across with two attackers, one of whom scores.

A/ Who let their man go?
B/ Who the feck 'organises' us to defend set-pieces?

Had Bogdan come out he'd just have been clattered by three players diving in for the same ball.

I didn't mean come and catch it (though I thought you liked keepers who come flying out willy nilly )! I meant not be stood behind the wall, by his near post then walk slowly towards the middle as it drifts towards the far post, gets nodded towards the far post and still not move. It was the punt forward he dithered over that worried me more. Head doesn't look right.

Absolute pish marking though, you are right. Mills lost his man, so bad Mills. The other f*cker had lost his so badly I don't even know who it was to blame!

[CAPSLOCK]

Bogdan was on that post cos the wall wouldn't move

[m_taylor]

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0 ... 00,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Highlights

[Bruce Rioja]

I didn't mean come and catch it (though I thought you liked keepers who come flying out willy nilly )

I like a 'keeper to take a 'keeper's ball if that's what you mean, young man!

[norm the jedi]

Don't get me wrong I think Coyles stock is so low that he should go but I firmly believe that over time the influence of a manager on his own is grossly overrated, change leads to the turn over of players and staff and produces a short term uptick at best followed by performance leveling back.
If at the same time as changing the manager you increase spending particularly on wages you get better players.. And that has a greater influence on results..
Coyle probably is a poor manager but the actual breadth in quality across the profession isn't that massive because there influence is not that great.. De Matteo (whatever happened to him?) was a shit manager at west brom apparently.? Sacking him kept them up will be the cry.. I think it's probably more complicated than that and for all the folklore and bollox spouted across the game managerial influence has as much to do with smoke and mirrors as owt else...
Coyle out! So long as you increase the wage bill for the next chap.. Or spend it on the scouting system, employ a coah and establish a system where the coach is one voice on transfers not the voice...
Fundamentally are the players good enough? Evidence suggests not, they've been playing since they were 6 - they are at a point where they are earning the top offer... If they could earn more they'd be off doing it, with West Hams recent recruits at our expence.. They are what they are if they've not got the hang of it by now I suspect plus or minus 10% they are what they are and their performance will deteriorate with age..
Allerdyce left when the spending plan didn't match the plan he had on the basis that for all his innovation and skill improvement and even maintenance of the position required continued investment in the team, players.
Statistics tend to suggest that if you lower your wage bill you get worse as a team..
Our recent history tends to back that up to the point where we could have coco the clown (if bobo is unavailable) as manager or perhaps Avram Grant.. Won't make much difference in the long run..
More than the manager needs to change.. And if we are reducing the debt and the wage bill we will,tend to get worse before we get better... Which is what's happening...
We may have the highest wage bill in our div, but if we cut wages on last term we are worse, So we have a relegated squad and then make it worse than we were last term in player terms. This is not the team that got relegated, half the starting 11 the other night either weren't here or didn't regularly figure lasts season. They are cheaper and so, whatever lazy bookmakers think, hardly likely to swoop unchallenged back to the prem anytime soon... Changing a shit manager for one slightly less shit won't change much beyond half a dozen games (as a rule)

Just sayin like

[BWFC_Insane]

Don't get me wrong I think Coyles stock is so low that he should go but I firmly believe that over time the influence of a manager on his own is grossly overrated, change leads to the turn over of players and staff and produces a short term uptick at best followed by performance leveling back.
If at the same time as changing the manager you increase spending particularly on wages you get better players.. And that has a greater influence on results..
Coyle probably is a poor manager but the actual breadth in quality across the profession isn't that massive because there influence is not that great.. De Matteo (whatever happened to him?) was a shit manager at west brom apparently.? Sacking him kept them up will be the cry.. I think it's probably more complicated than that and for all the folklore and bollox spouted across the game managerial influence has as much to do with smoke and mirrors as owt else...
Coyle out! So long as you increase the wage bill for the next chap.. Or spend it on the scouting system, employ a coah and establish a system where the coach is one voice on transfers not the voice...
Fundamentally are the players good enough? Evidence suggests not, they've been playing since they were 6 - they are at a point where they are earning the top offer... If they could earn more they'd be off doing it, with West Hams recent recruits at our expence.. They are what they are if they've not got the hang of it by now I suspect plus or minus 10% they are what they are and their performance will deteriorate with age..
Allerdyce left when the spending plan didn't match the plan he had on the basis that for all his innovation and skill improvement and even maintenance of the position required continued investment in the team, players.
Statistics tend to suggest that if you lower your wage bill you get worse as a team..
Our recent history tends to back that up to the point where we could have coco the clown (if bobo is unavailable) as manager or perhaps Avram Grant.. Won't make much difference in the long run..
More than the manager needs to change.. And if we are reducing the debt and the wage bill we will,tend to get worse before we get better... Which is what's happening...
We may have the highest wage bill in our div, but if we cut wages on last term we are worse, So we have a relegated squad and then make it worse than we were last term in player terms. This is not the team that got relegated, half the starting 11 the other night either weren't here or didn't regularly figure lasts season. They are cheaper and so, whatever lazy bookmakers think, hardly likely to swoop unchallenged back to the prem anytime soon... Changing a shit manager for one slightly less shit won't change much beyond half a dozen games (as a rule)

Just sayin like

That is a good post. I might not agree with large parts of it, but it is a well thought out point.

My feeling though is that Allardyce demonstrated here, (and elsewhere) that with really good and strong leadership, you can overachieve. He did that consistently whilst here. We were the side that bucked the trend for finance vs performance.

I think he left, not really because of ambition or finance, but probably cos he was bored here, he'd hit the proverbial glass ceiling and clearly to smash through it, he needed more money.

I'd have more sympathy with Owen, if we were performing to "our financial level", we didn't last season when we had the 14th biggest wage bill and transfer budget (certainly not in the bottom three). And this season we're behind Palace, and Owen was backed this summer, in spending several million on Mills and bringing in Andrews on decent wages alongside his other signings. He has further been backed in not having to sell players.

You may well be right, in that we all crave after a manager as good as Allardyce, when perhaps there isn't one and we'll never in our history re-live those heights. I think I, and I suspect most, just feel lucky to have experienced that, and realistically know it will never happen again.

However, Owen has had enough time here to have created a vision, a style, a team. And sadly the longer he's been here, the worse things have got. Results have got worse, performances have got worse, signings have been worse and the quality has diminished. As you say it may well be signs of working under a decreasing budget, but even more reason to have someone in charge capable of maximising those resources. If I'm honest, his biggest problem is that he's talked since he came, about creating a "young, exciting, attacking side". And put his vision out there from the outset. I'd say we're further away from that vision than we were when he started.

[norm the jedi]

Don't get me wrong I think Coyles stock is so low that he should go but I firmly believe that over time the influence of a manager on his own is grossly overrated, change leads to the turn over of players and staff and produces a short term uptick at best followed by performance leveling back.
If at the same time as changing the manager you increase spending particularly on wages you get better players.. And that has a greater influence on results..
Coyle probably is a poor manager but the actual breadth in quality across the profession isn't that massive because there influence is not that great.. De Matteo (whatever happened to him?) was a shit manager at west brom apparently.? Sacking him kept them up will be the cry.. I think it's probably more complicated than that and for all the folklore and bollox spouted across the game managerial influence has as much to do with smoke and mirrors as owt else...
Coyle out! So long as you increase the wage bill for the next chap.. Or spend it on the scouting system, employ a coah and establish a system where the coach is one voice on transfers not the voice...
Fundamentally are the players good enough? Evidence suggests not, they've been playing since they were 6 - they are at a point where they are earning the top offer... If they could earn more they'd be off doing it, with West Hams recent recruits at our expence.. They are what they are if they've not got the hang of it by now I suspect plus or minus 10% they are what they are and their performance will deteriorate with age..
Allerdyce left when the spending plan didn't match the plan he had on the basis that for all his innovation and skill improvement and even maintenance of the position required continued investment in the team, players.
Statistics tend to suggest that if you lower your wage bill you get worse as a team..
Our recent history tends to back that up to the point where we could have coco the clown (if bobo is unavailable) as manager or perhaps Avram Grant.. Won't make much difference in the long run..
More than the manager needs to change.. And if we are reducing the debt and the wage bill we will,tend to get worse before we get better... Which is what's happening...
We may have the highest wage bill in our div, but if we cut wages on last term we are worse, So we have a relegated squad and then make it worse than we were last term in player terms. This is not the team that got relegated, half the starting 11 the other night either weren't here or didn't regularly figure lasts season. They are cheaper and so, whatever lazy bookmakers think, hardly likely to swoop unchallenged back to the prem anytime soon... Changing a shit manager for one slightly less shit won't change much beyond half a dozen games (as a rule)

Just sayin like

That is a good post. I might not agree with large parts of it, but it is a well thought out point.

My feeling though is that Allardyce demonstrated here, (and elsewhere) that with really good and strong leadership, you can overachieve. He did that consistently whilst here. We were the side that bucked the trend for finance vs performance.

I think he left, not really because of ambition or finance, but probably cos he was bored here, he'd hit the proverbial glass ceiling and clearly to smash through it, he needed more money.

I'd have more sympathy with Owen, if we were performing to "our financial level", we didn't last season when we had the 14th biggest wage bill and transfer budget (certainly not in the bottom three). And this season we're behind Palace, and Owen was backed this summer, in spending several million on Mills and bringing in Andrews on decent wages alongside his other signings. He has further been backed in not having to sell players.

You may well be right, in that we all crave after a manager as good as Allardyce, when perhaps there isn't one and we'll never in our history re-live those heights. I think I, and I suspect most, just feel lucky to have experienced that, and realistically know it will never happen again.

However, Owen has had enough time here to have created a vision, a style, a team. And sadly the longer he's been here, the worse things have got. Results have got worse, performances have got worse, signings have been worse and the quality has diminished. As you say it may well be signs of working under a decreasing budget, but even more reason to have someone in charge capable of maximising those resources. If I'm honest, his biggest problem is that he's talked since he came, about creating a "young, exciting, attacking side". And put his vision out there from the outset. I'd say we're further away from that vision than we were when he started.

I think we could have faired better post Allerdyce if we had kept the method.. He essentially pioneered a moneyball variant with prozone and the whole fitness and performance regime.. Getting rid of Allerdyce was unfortunate but inevitable - letting the rest go to the wall and failing to see the part it played in our success was just careless...
But given that revolution will always upset the old order.. I suppose more traditional 'cult of the manager' types ' Voldamort and Coyle ' when faced with saving the nerds or increasing the player spend will always favour the latter.. I don't see either possessing the humility to accept that someone who never played the game can possibly know better.. despite the mass of evidence from the Allerdyce years.. not least the purchase of Gary Speed when the expert opinion in football had him finished the stats showed him out running and out lasting his contemporaries in key areas.. the rest as they...
We may not see another Allerdyce but there's no reason why we couldn't go back to employing some of the methods he introduced which appear to have gone with the staff.. and seem to be doing OK at Wet sham.. Which seems essentially Bolton MKII..

Napoleon favoured lucky generals over qualified ones [sic] Coyle has the look of an Unlucky general...
incidentally Gary Player said, " the more I practice the luckier I get " no in itself disputing the concept of luck just saying that he more proficient you get the less part chance plays in success or failure..

By and large I'm with Napoleon as long as the next general isn't another one man band messiah..

[BWFC_Insane]

Don't get me wrong I think Coyles stock is so low that he should go but I firmly believe that over time the influence of a manager on his own is grossly overrated, change leads to the turn over of players and staff and produces a short term uptick at best followed by performance leveling back.
If at the same time as changing the manager you increase spending particularly on wages you get better players.. And that has a greater influence on results..
Coyle probably is a poor manager but the actual breadth in quality across the profession isn't that massive because there influence is not that great.. De Matteo (whatever happened to him?) was a shit manager at west brom apparently.? Sacking him kept them up will be the cry.. I think it's probably more complicated than that and for all the folklore and bollox spouted across the game managerial influence has as much to do with smoke and mirrors as owt else...
Coyle out! So long as you increase the wage bill for the next chap.. Or spend it on the scouting system, employ a coah and establish a system where the coach is one voice on transfers not the voice...
Fundamentally are the players good enough? Evidence suggests not, they've been playing since they were 6 - they are at a point where they are earning the top offer... If they could earn more they'd be off doing it, with West Hams recent recruits at our expence.. They are what they are if they've not got the hang of it by now I suspect plus or minus 10% they are what they are and their performance will deteriorate with age..
Allerdyce left when the spending plan didn't match the plan he had on the basis that for all his innovation and skill improvement and even maintenance of the position required continued investment in the team, players.
Statistics tend to suggest that if you lower your wage bill you get worse as a team..
Our recent history tends to back that up to the point where we could have coco the clown (if bobo is unavailable) as manager or perhaps Avram Grant.. Won't make much difference in the long run..
More than the manager needs to change.. And if we are reducing the debt and the wage bill we will,tend to get worse before we get better... Which is what's happening...
We may have the highest wage bill in our div, but if we cut wages on last term we are worse, So we have a relegated squad and then make it worse than we were last term in player terms. This is not the team that got relegated, half the starting 11 the other night either weren't here or didn't regularly figure lasts season. They are cheaper and so, whatever lazy bookmakers think, hardly likely to swoop unchallenged back to the prem anytime soon... Changing a shit manager for one slightly less shit won't change much beyond half a dozen games (as a rule)

Just sayin like

That is a good post. I might not agree with large parts of it, but it is a well thought out point.

My feeling though is that Allardyce demonstrated here, (and elsewhere) that with really good and strong leadership, you can overachieve. He did that consistently whilst here. We were the side that bucked the trend for finance vs performance.

I think he left, not really because of ambition or finance, but probably cos he was bored here, he'd hit the proverbial glass ceiling and clearly to smash through it, he needed more money.

I'd have more sympathy with Owen, if we were performing to "our financial level", we didn't last season when we had the 14th biggest wage bill and transfer budget (certainly not in the bottom three). And this season we're behind Palace, and Owen was backed this summer, in spending several million on Mills and bringing in Andrews on decent wages alongside his other signings. He has further been backed in not having to sell players.

You may well be right, in that we all crave after a manager as good as Allardyce, when perhaps there isn't one and we'll never in our history re-live those heights. I think I, and I suspect most, just feel lucky to have experienced that, and realistically know it will never happen again.

However, Owen has had enough time here to have created a vision, a style, a team. And sadly the longer he's been here, the worse things have got. Results have got worse, performances have got worse, signings have been worse and the quality has diminished. As you say it may well be signs of working under a decreasing budget, but even more reason to have someone in charge capable of maximising those resources. If I'm honest, his biggest problem is that he's talked since he came, about creating a "young, exciting, attacking side". And put his vision out there from the outset. I'd say we're further away from that vision than we were when he started.

I think we could have faired better post Allerdyce if we had kept the method.. He essentially pioneered a moneyball variant with prozone and the whole fitness and performance regime.. Getting rid of Allerdyce was unfortunate but inevitable - letting the rest go to the wall and failing to see the part it played in our success was just careless...
But given that revolution will always upset the old order.. I suppose more traditional 'cult of the manager' types ' Voldamort and Coyle ' when faced with saving the nerds or increasing the player spend will always favour the latter.. I don't see either possessing the humility to accept that someone who never played the game can possibly know better.. despite the mass of evidence from the Allerdyce years.. not least the purchase of Gary Speed when the expert opinion in football had him finished the stats showed him out running and out lasting his contemporaries in key areas.. the rest as they...
We may not see another Allerdyce but there's no reason why we couldn't go back to employing some of the methods he introduced which appear to have gone with the staff.. and seem to be doing OK at Wet sham.. Which seems essentially Bolton MKII..

Napoleon favoured lucky generals over qualified ones [sic] Coyle has the look of an Unlucky general...
incidentally Gary Player said, " the more I practice the luckier I get " no in itself disputing the concept of luck just saying that he more proficient you get the less part chance plays in success or failure..

By and large I'm with Napoleon as long as the next general isn't another one man band messiah..

I think we're in broad agreement. We need a proper management setup, that relies on excellent individuals (the best we can get) in each role, rather than another manager who brings along his rag-tag crew he has picked up along the way.

We also for me, need someone with a strong vision, and the ability to carry it through.

I suppose the ultimate question is whether someone of that ilk would be available and accesible to a club like ours.

And if not, do we get a stop-gap (which I would) who would organise and structure the team better and try and maximise our results, at least in this division.

I guess the problem for Gartside or whoever, is spotting the man with the "ideal characteristics" because its bound to be someone relatively undiscovered.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

• 1. We need a proper leader on and off the pitch
  2. We need coaches that can coach
  3. We need someone that can accept they get it wrong sometimes

[superjohnmcginlay]

4. We need cheaper Worthy's.

[Gary the Enfield]

4. We need cheaper Worthy's.

If you ask him nicely I'm sure he's prepared to negotiate. You big fairy!

[norm the jedi]

We also need to accept that it took Five years to get here and it may take more than a fortnight to sort it out..