Bruce or Sam.

[Bruce Rioja]

But no way do his achievements here stack up against Allardyces.

What complete and utter bollocks. Absolute nonsense.

It is my opinion.

Sam took the club higher than it had been since 1959. Then took us on our only European jaunt in our history. Then qualified us for it again.

In our four top 8 finishes in the too flight the only clubs who bettered our consistency of league platings in that period were Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool. Essentially we were rubbing shoulders with the biggest clubs in this land and some of the biggest ones in Europe too.

Right now I'd say if we fell down to league one and bummed around for a while down there, that it would be possible for a manager to at some point take us up to the premiership, again. Adkins for example did it with Southampton.

Can I see Bolton ever qualifying for Europe again via league position without some sort of takeover and massive investment? No.

You clearly don't agree, but that is my reasoning.

Tell me - between the years 1980 and 1992, did the name Bolton Wanderers mean anything to you? Anything at all?

[BWFC_Insane]

But no way do his achievements here stack up against Allardyces.

What complete and utter bollocks. Absolute nonsense.

It is my opinion.

Sam took the club higher than it had been since 1959. Then took us on our only European jaunt in our history. Then qualified us for it again.

In our four top 8 finishes in the too flight the only clubs who bettered our consistency of league platings in that period were Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool. Essentially we were rubbing shoulders with the biggest clubs in this land and some of the biggest ones in Europe too.

Right now I'd say if we fell down to league one and bummed around for a while down there, that it would be possible for a manager to at some point take us up to the premiership, again. Adkins for example did it with Southampton.

Can I see Bolton ever qualifying for Europe again via league position without some sort of takeover and massive investment? No.

You clearly don't agree, but that is my reasoning.

Tell me - between the years 1980 and 1992, did the name Bolton Wanderers mean anything to you? Anything at all?

So we disagree. I don't think it is something everyone has to agree with.

Of course the backdrop to Rioch's achievements make them immensely impressive.

Not taking away from them.

[Bruce Rioja]

So we disagree. I don't think it is something everyone has to agree with.

Of course the backdrop to Rioch's achievements make them immensely impressive.

Not taking away from them.

It's not that straightforward, Fella. I wish it was. If you didn't live through the Rioch era and the absolute hopelessness that went before them then you're in no position to compare them.

[BWFC_Insane]

So we disagree. I don't think it is something everyone has to agree with.

Of course the backdrop to Rioch's achievements make them immensely impressive.

Not taking away from them.

It's not that straightforward, Fella. I wish it was. If you didn't live through the Rioch era and the absolute hopelessness that went before them then you're in no position to compare them.

Well I did live through that. I get where you are coming from. I watched us in division 4. I was only a young teenager though, so I'm not saying at that age I felt the same pain as some of the blokes who were there.

Just like now even after losing 4-1 at Blackburn the kids there were still excited about things whereas I just was depressed!

[CAPSLOCK]

So we disagree. I don't think it is something everyone has to agree with.

Of course the backdrop to Rioch's achievements make them immensely impressive.

Not taking away from them.

It's not that straightforward, Fella. I wish it was. If you didn't live through the Rioch era and the absolute hopelessness that went before them then you're in no position to compare them.

I was there and I think Allardyce is an obnoxious fat headed cnut while Riochs a bit of a gentleman

But, Allardyces record pisses all over Riochs

[bobo the clown]

I was there and I think Allardyce is an obnoxious fat headed cnut while Riochs a bit of a gentleman

But, Allardyces record pisses all over Riochs

There ... in a nutshell.

[LeverEnd]

So we disagree. I don't think it is something everyone has to agree with.

Of course the backdrop to Rioch's achievements make them immensely impressive.

Not taking away from them.

It's not that straightforward, Fella. I wish it was. If you didn't live through the Rioch era and the absolute hopelessness that went before them then you're in no position to compare them.

I was there and I think Allardyce is an obnoxious fat headed cnut while Riochs a bit of a gentleman

But, Allardyces record pisses all over Riochs

If you look at it in the context of the club's position around the time they were appointed and for the previous decade it makes it a lot closer. I have to agree that Allardyce shades it, but that's all. It's not just about hard stats.

[BWFC_Insane]

Agree with what Caps says in the main. Pisses all over is a bit strong.

But I'd rather go for a pint with Rioch than Allardyce any day of the week.

Rioch was definitel old school in terms of not being a self publicist. He didn't boast about his achievements didn't ram them down your throat, and that is part of what made him great. I do believe he regrets not giving us one more year to see what he could have done in the top flight.

I don't believe he would have kept us up that season, but I reckon it would have been damn close!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

http://mannyroad.com/mcginlay-bruce-rio ... -the-fans/

Thanks for that - a great read. What a time. However...

We'd sold our leading goalscorer to Peterborough (yes, Peterborough!) the season before Rioch arrived, because we were so strapped for cash. We were going backwards again. He transformed the club. He was that important.

Rioch sold Philliskirk to Peterborough, in October 1992. I think we can all agree than Tony P was not Rioch's kind of player.

(Rioch) was starting with virtually no money, average attendances of around 6,000 and a club that had finished in the bottom half of the Third Division, or lower, in seven of the previous nine seasons.

All that is true, and I don't doubt McGinlay's story about the contract, but Rioch was given money to spend. Didn't we spend something like £300,000 on David Lee? Phil Neal had been after him for two years and got given fifty grand for Michael Brown instead.

Again, this is in no way impugning Rioch, who was the best thing to have happened to the club in years, but he came in on a reasonably solid base - certainly a world away from the padlocked gates of Boro. Neal's team had reached the play-offs twice and given us the taste for cup games - narrow defeat at Old Trafford, the Swindon marathon, and even in that terribly disappointing last season we'd pushed top-flight Southampton all the way.

Rioch added a sprinkle of players (Lee, McGinlay, Branagan) to Neal's team and got them playing much, much better football, but it's not like he was plaiting fog. Neal had cultivated Stubbs and bought McAteer,Tony Kelly, Andy Walker...

One more time: Rioch was an immeasurably better manager than Neal and unarguably better than all but a couple of BWFC bosses. But I remember it as being a bit more complicated than night-to-day.

We'd been in the Premier League twice in three seasons prior to Allardyce's arrival. We were one of the favourites to bounce straight back when Todd resigned. You could argue that Allardyce had all the resources at his disposal to win promotion at the first time of asking and that the task was only made harder because we failed to do that.

Again, it's not quite that simple. Here's something I wrote for WSC between Todd's departure and Allardyce's arrival - I'd forgotten that I'd written it until someone told me on Twitter that they'd republished it. Those were dark days too, and Allardyce's works shouldn't be belitted.

I know it's a straightforward thread-title question, inviting binary debate, but it's a shame one should be denigrated ("pisses over", Caps? Really?). I'll never be happier than I was under Rioch, although Todd's title season was brilliant, and Allardyce's achievements were awesome. I'd rather celebrate all of them, while we wait for the next good times to come along.

[BWFC_Insane]

And it should be noted that it was our second season down there (and we were bottom 6) when Allardyce took over. The previous season was the play-off final defeat to Watford.

So we wouldn't have been "bouncing straight back".

[coffeymagic]

Phil Neal actually took us to the play offs three times.

[Bruce Rioja]

Phil Neal actually took us to the play offs three times.

I can see what you did there

[Dr Hotdog]

http://mannyroad.com/mcginlay-bruce-rio ... -the-fans/

It'd be nice to think that some of Rioch might have rubbed off on Coyle. What with Coyle's involvement in the Reading Play-off final and McGinlay's wonderful recollection of Rioch's team-talk. Where was that when we were down and out in the Stoke semi-final?

[BWFC_Insane]

http://mannyroad.com/mcginlay-bruce-rio ... -the-fans/

It'd be nice to think that some of Rioch might have rubbed off on Coyle. What with Coyle's involvement in the Reading Play-off final and McGinlay's wonderful recollection of Rioch's team-talk. Where was that when we were down and out in the Stoke semi-final?

Would Rioch's way have worked with modern players, earning vast sums? I mean he struggled (reportedly) with some of the high earning billy big bollocks at Arsenal.

[Dr Hotdog]

That's true - who knows? Perhaps Coyle did exactly that and it didn't work, we'll never know!

[BWFC_Insane]

That's true - who knows? Perhaps Coyle did exactly that and it didn't work, we'll never know!

I don't think Coyle would ever have the authority Rioch commanded. I don't think it would be his particular style either.

[Dr Hotdog]

Aye, Coyle always came across as being a bit too 'matey' which I'm sure will please at first but then quickly become tiresome.

Back on topic - Rioch for me.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Without getting into the usual old back-and-forth, you get the impression Coyle wanted to be everyone's mate. Hardly the sergeant-major (although as noted that doesn't much work these days).

EDIT: Dr H confirms "mate" diagnosis.

[BWFC_Insane]

Without getting into the usual old back-and-forth, you get the impression Coyle wanted to be everyone's mate. Hardly the sergeant-major (although as noted that doesn't much work these days).

EDIT: Dr H confirms "mate" diagnosis.

And on topic-ish, would you say Allardyce got the balance spot on between being a disciplinarian and a "father figure" to his players?

[LeverEnd]

Without getting into the usual old back-and-forth, you get the impression Coyle wanted to be everyone's mate. Hardly the sergeant-major (although as noted that doesn't much work these days).

EDIT: Dr H confirms "mate" diagnosis.

I seem to remember that when Coyle came to us he was asked about his time here under Rioch and spoke warmly about it whilst suggesting that Rioch's style wasn't his cup of tea.