Xpro

[BWFC_Insane]

if you say so... booooooooooooooooooooo! Eddie. bad boy.

If an owner of a business runs it to the point of administration are you saying that they shouldn't be accountable at all for that?

I get football clubs are not easy things to turn around. But like I say it isn't like this has crept up slowly. The numbers were known for years. If Eddie wasn't supporting it, he surely had to try and manage it better than this?

well - the way he managed it gave more awesome top-flight and exciting player memories than I ever dreamed I might have following BWFC... so - on balance - NO! build a statue to Eddie and kiss its feet every day.

he might have managed it differently - and maybe then we'd have had a non-financially-perilous safe ride in divisions 2 and 3 - yay!

That has nothing to do with it. Eddie putting money in during the premiership years is not what I'm talking about.

When we came down and Eddie decided to reduce or stop his financial support is where I become critical. Not that he stopped but that he's still owner of the business and responsible for it. And he will have realised there was a huge financial shortfall. But instead of managing that in some way it has been left to become an incredibly serious problem and now we are owing money to several people other than Eddie and by many reports on the verge of administration short of a deal being struck.

None of this relates to spending in the premiership. But about the subsequent role he has played as owner. Just because he decided no longer to invest it doesn't mean he wasn't responsible.

[thebish]

if you say so... booooooooooooooooooooo! Eddie. bad boy.

If an owner of a business runs it to the point of administration are you saying that they shouldn't be accountable at all for that?

I get football clubs are not easy things to turn around. But like I say it isn't like this has crept up slowly. The numbers were known for years. If Eddie wasn't supporting it, he surely had to try and manage it better than this?

well - the way he managed it gave more awesome top-flight and exciting player memories than I ever dreamed I might have following BWFC... so - on balance - NO! build a statue to Eddie and kiss its feet every day.

he might have managed it differently - and maybe then we'd have had a non-financially-perilous safe ride in divisions 2 and 3 - yay!

That has nothing to do with it. Eddie putting money in during the premiership years is not what I'm talking about.

When we came down and Eddie decided to reduce or stop his financial support is where I become critical. Not that he stopped but that he's still owner of the business and responsible for it. And he will have realised there was a huge financial shortfall. But instead of managing that in some way it has been left to become an incredibly serious problem and now we are owing money to several people other than Eddie and by many reports on the verge of administration short of a deal being struck.

None of this relates to spending in the premiership. But about the subsequent role he has played as owner. Just because he decided no longer to invest it doesn't mean he wasn't responsible.

it does relate to spending in the premiership, though - because that has dictated a big part of the bills we have had to pay in prem-contract wages and facilities and a whole shizzle of other stuff. what exactly is it that you think eddie should have done differently so that he could have managed the company into a position you would approve of?

[StaffsTrotter]

if you say so... booooooooooooooooooooo! Eddie. bad boy.

If an owner of a business runs it to the point of administration are you saying that they shouldn't be accountable at all for that?

I get football clubs are not easy things to turn around. But like I say it isn't like this has crept up slowly. The numbers were known for years. If Eddie wasn't supporting it, he surely had to try and manage it better than this?

I'm sure he would have preferred handing us over a successful PL club and beating suitors off with a stick - who knows why and when the line has been drawn, but perhaps he has just seen too many false dawns with managers and interested parties

[BWFC_Insane]

it does relate to spending in the premiership, though - because that has dictated a big part of the bills we have had to pay in prem-contract wages and facilities and a whole shizzle of other stuff. what exactly is it that you think eddie should have done differently so that he could have managed the company into a position you would approve of?

There are only two things, either find investment earlier or reduce costs quicker and further.

I accept neither is easy but he is owner and responsible.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Seems he was (with hindsight) too easily persuaded that all we needed to return was to spend more money than we had on the wages of Andrews, Knight, Ricketts, Mills, Spearing, Lonergan, Bolger, Medo, Baptiste, Hall, Tierney, White, Wilkinson, Beckford, Bukran, Moritz, Lee-Barrett, Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Taylor, Woolery, Clayton, Kenny, Gudjohnsen, Heskey, Twardzik, Amos, Madine, Derek, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado, Rachubka and Ameobi. Awwww come on Eddie, this guy's DEFINITELY going to be the difference.

[StaffsTrotter]

Seems he was (with hindsight) too easily persuaded that all we needed to return was to spend more money than we had on the wages of Andrews, Knight, Ricketts, Mills, Spearing, Lonergan, Bolger, Medo, Baptiste, Hall, Tierney, White, Wilkinson, Beckford, Bukran, Moritz, Lee-Barrett, Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Taylor, Woolery, Clayton, Kenny, Gudjohnsen, Heskey, Twardzik, Amos, Madine, Derek, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado, Rachubka and Ameobi. Awwww come on Eddie, this guy's DEFINITELY going to be the difference.

Yup -part of the false dawns. I cant knock ED for supporting /gambling on the attempt to get back up.

Wonder what the reaction would have been, if when we were relegated ED/PG had said - ah well, we're fecked without the PL money, I'm turning down my financial support, our aim is to now live within our means which at best means consolidate a place in the champ'ship

[BWFC_Insane]

Seems he was (with hindsight) too easily persuaded that all we needed to return was to spend more money than we had on the wages of Andrews, Knight, Ricketts, Mills, Spearing, Lonergan, Bolger, Medo, Baptiste, Hall, Tierney, White, Wilkinson, Beckford, Bukran, Moritz, Lee-Barrett, Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Taylor, Woolery, Clayton, Kenny, Gudjohnsen, Heskey, Twardzik, Amos, Madine, Derek, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado, Rachubka and Ameobi. Awwww come on Eddie, this guy's DEFINITELY going to be the difference.

Yup -part of the false dawns. I cant knock ED for supporting /gambling on the attempt to get back up.

Wonder what the reaction would have been, if when we were relegated ED/PG had said - ah well, we're fecked without the PL money, I'm turning down my financial support, our aim is to now live within our means which at best means consolidate a place in the champ'ship

But he wasn't supporting it financially that is the problem. That is why we are where we are.

He knew our turnover. And he knew our expenditure. And he knew there was a gap he was no longer prepared to cover. But instead of attempting to manage that he let players come in, the wage bill whilst reducing never got to the point where the gap between income and expenditure was manageable. And basically allowed our debts to grow elsewhere.

The reaction wouldn't have been good at all. But as an owner of the business letting that business spend more than it had and put the entire business at risk is worse than saying "we need new investors now and until they arrive we need to accept that there will be no new additions to the playing squad".

[Andy Waller]

Seems he was (with hindsight) too easily persuaded that all we needed to return was to spend more money than we had on the wages of Andrews, Knight, Ricketts, Mills, Spearing, Lonergan, Bolger, Medo, Baptiste, Hall, Tierney, White, Wilkinson, Beckford, Bukran, Moritz, Lee-Barrett, Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Taylor, Woolery, Clayton, Kenny, Gudjohnsen, Heskey, Twardzik, Amos, Madine, Derek, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado, Rachubka and Ameobi. Awwww come on Eddie, this guy's DEFINITELY going to be the difference.

Yup -part of the false dawns. I cant knock ED for supporting /gambling on the attempt to get back up.

Wonder what the reaction would have been, if when we were relegated ED/PG had said - ah well, we're fecked without the PL money, I'm turning down my financial support, our aim is to now live within our means which at best means consolidate a place in the champ'ship

But he wasn't supporting it financially that is the problem. That is why we are where we are.

He knew our turnover. And he knew our expenditure. And he knew there was a gap he was no longer prepared to cover. But instead of attempting to manage that he let players come in, the wage bill whilst reducing never got to the point where the gap between income and expenditure was manageable. And basically allowed our debts to grow elsewhere.

The reaction wouldn't have been good at all. But as an owner of the business letting that business spend more than it had and put the entire business at risk is worse than saying "we need new investors now and until they arrive we need to accept that there will be no new additions to the playing squad".

I thoroughly agree.

When the debt was at, say £50m, he knew that the money had little or no chance of being repaid so why not start to cut back then?

[StaffsTrotter]

well I think your first sentence is bollocks.
As regards the rest, I'd say he has pretty much taken the view that you suggest, since the wheels came off with coyle. Freedman was brought in a manager experienced in financially armageddon situations, who probably raised EDs hopes resulting in ED then supporting him when there was a glimmer of hope of promotion - sure dawson, juke etc wouldnt have been cheap (did you not clamour for their re-sign?).
Also seem to think its been 1 in 1 out and open invite to other investors for a while now

[Enoch]

Also seem to think its been 1 in 1 out and open invite to other investors for a while now

I'm with that, certainly since Coyle left the building.

I'm sure it's been known for some time in the world of rich folk with cash to waste on footie that BWFC was available.

[StaffsTrotter]

Seems he was (with hindsight) too easily persuaded that all we needed to return was to spend more money than we had on the wages of Andrews, Knight, Ricketts, Mills, Spearing, Lonergan, Bolger, Medo, Baptiste, Hall, Tierney, White, Wilkinson, Beckford, Bukran, Moritz, Lee-Barrett, Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Taylor, Woolery, Clayton, Kenny, Gudjohnsen, Heskey, Twardzik, Amos, Madine, Derek, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado, Rachubka and Ameobi. Awwww come on Eddie, this guy's DEFINITELY going to be the difference.

Yup -part of the false dawns. I cant knock ED for supporting /gambling on the attempt to get back up.

Wonder what the reaction would have been, if when we were relegated ED/PG had said - ah well, we're fecked without the PL money, I'm turning down my financial support, our aim is to now live within our means which at best means consolidate a place in the champ'ship

But he wasn't supporting it financially that is the problem. That is why we are where we are.

He knew our turnover. And he knew our expenditure. And he knew there was a gap he was no longer prepared to cover. But instead of attempting to manage that he let players come in, the wage bill whilst reducing never got to the point where the gap between income and expenditure was manageable. And basically allowed our debts to grow elsewhere.

The reaction wouldn't have been good at all. But as an owner of the business letting that business spend more than it had and put the entire business at risk is worse than saying "we need new investors now and until they arrive we need to accept that there will be no new additions to the playing squad".

I thoroughly agree.

When the debt was at, say £50m, he knew that the money had little or no chance of being repaid so why not start to cut back then?

I bet we were still in the PL at that stage. Putting aside assumptions about whether he really ever expected to get re-paid, you do get that its owed to himself and he's writing it off ?

[Andy Waller]

Seems he was (with hindsight) too easily persuaded that all we needed to return was to spend more money than we had on the wages of Andrews, Knight, Ricketts, Mills, Spearing, Lonergan, Bolger, Medo, Baptiste, Hall, Tierney, White, Wilkinson, Beckford, Bukran, Moritz, Lee-Barrett, Danns, Dervite, Feeney, Fitzsimons, Robinson, Trotter, Moxey, Taylor, Woolery, Clayton, Kenny, Gudjohnsen, Heskey, Twardzik, Amos, Madine, Derek, Dobbie, Wilson, Pisano, Casado, Rachubka and Ameobi. Awwww come on Eddie, this guy's DEFINITELY going to be the difference.

Yup -part of the false dawns. I cant knock ED for supporting /gambling on the attempt to get back up.

Wonder what the reaction would have been, if when we were relegated ED/PG had said - ah well, we're fecked without the PL money, I'm turning down my financial support, our aim is to now live within our means which at best means consolidate a place in the champ'ship

But he wasn't supporting it financially that is the problem. That is why we are where we are.

He knew our turnover. And he knew our expenditure. And he knew there was a gap he was no longer prepared to cover. But instead of attempting to manage that he let players come in, the wage bill whilst reducing never got to the point where the gap between income and expenditure was manageable. And basically allowed our debts to grow elsewhere.

The reaction wouldn't have been good at all. But as an owner of the business letting that business spend more than it had and put the entire business at risk is worse than saying "we need new investors now and until they arrive we need to accept that there will be no new additions to the playing squad".

I thoroughly agree.

When the debt was at, say £50m, he knew that the money had little or no chance of being repaid so why not start to cut back then?

I bet we were still in the PL at that stage. Putting aside assumptions about whether he really ever expected to get re-paid, you do get that its owed to himself and he's writing it off ?

Yes, I do get that, but if he had a cut off figure in mind, wouldn't you be saying to the club "Look, I'll only lend you £X million before I stop" .

There seems to have been no forward planning whatsoever.

And like you say, if we were in the PL and we were still losing money, even with all the extra revenue, shouldn't have that rung alarm bells?

[thebish]

it does relate to spending in the premiership, though - because that has dictated a big part of the bills we have had to pay in prem-contract wages and facilities and a whole shizzle of other stuff. what exactly is it that you think eddie should have done differently so that he could have managed the company into a position you would approve of?

There are only two things, either find investment earlier or reduce costs quicker and further.

I accept neither is easy but he is owner and responsible.

so - your solution would have been what, exactly?

[Andy Waller]

it does relate to spending in the premiership, though - because that has dictated a big part of the bills we have had to pay in prem-contract wages and facilities and a whole shizzle of other stuff. what exactly is it that you think eddie should have done differently so that he could have managed the company into a position you would approve of?

There are only two things, either find investment earlier or reduce costs quicker and further.

I accept neither is easy but he is owner and responsible.

so - your solution would have been what, exactly?

Err, stop spending money we hadn't got??

[thebish]

it does relate to spending in the premiership, though - because that has dictated a big part of the bills we have had to pay in prem-contract wages and facilities and a whole shizzle of other stuff. what exactly is it that you think eddie should have done differently so that he could have managed the company into a position you would approve of?

There are only two things, either find investment earlier or reduce costs quicker and further.

I accept neither is easy but he is owner and responsible.

so - your solution would have been what, exactly?

Err, stop spending money we hadn't got??

what - so - errr.. just bring about this situation 3yrs earlier?

[BWFC_Insane]

well I think your first sentence is bollocks.
As regards the rest, I'd say he has pretty much taken the view that you suggest, since the wheels came off with coyle. Freedman was brought in a manager experienced in financially armageddon situations, who probably raised EDs hopes resulting in ED then supporting him when there was a glimmer of hope of promotion - sure dawson, juke etc wouldnt have been cheap (did you not clamour for their re-sign?).
Also seem to think its been 1 in 1 out and open invite to other investors for a while now

My first sentence that Eddie isn't supporting the gap in income and expenditure is bollocks? Erm no it has been on record from the club.

That is the problem. Eddie knew he was stopping carrying the gap. He also knew the gap was there. That is why we are in trouble now and have had to borrow money from Warburtons and sell off land.

[Worthy4England]

It was £33m in debt when he joined the Board. Maybe he shouldn't have bothered and just watch it unfold.

It really bemuses me how good folks are with the benefit of hindsight. Clearly (in my mind anyhow) for a sustained period stretching back to the 1990's we've been living beyond our ability to generate revenue. We could've just accepted that and loitered in the 2nd/3rd division but we got someone prepared to throw money at it.

So let's wipe Rioch and Todd and Allardyce from the record books coz none of them should've happened. We couldn't afford them.

There has clearly been a problem the last couple of years and I suspect a genuine Bolton fan might have taken an overstretched punt to try and get us back in the Prem.

[BWFC_Insane]

It was £33m in debt when he joined the Board. Maybe he shouldn't have bothered and just watch it unfold.

It really bemuses me how good folks are with the benefit of hindsight. Clearly (in my mind anyhow) for a sustained period stretching back to the 1990's we've been living beyond our ability to generate revenue. We could've just accepted that and loitered in the 2nd/3rd division but we got someone prepared to throw money at it.

So let's wipe Rioch and Todd and Allardyce from the record books coz none of them should've happened. We couldn't afford them.

There has clearly been a problem the last couple of years and I suspect a genuine Bolton fan might have taken an overstretched punt to try and get us back in the Prem.

Which would be fine if he'd given it one last gamble. But the gamble was taken with other loans (that we are now finding out about) and means there is debt elsewhere that puts the club in a far less stable position.

It is this that is the problem. Not the debt to Eddie or his backing of the club for many years financially. It is the last few years and the fact that either heads were buried in the sand or undue risks were taken.

[Worthy4England]

It was £33m in debt when he joined the Board. Maybe he shouldn't have bothered and just watch it unfold.

It really bemuses me how good folks are with the benefit of hindsight. Clearly (in my mind anyhow) for a sustained period stretching back to the 1990's we've been living beyond our ability to generate revenue. We could've just accepted that and loitered in the 2nd/3rd division but we got someone prepared to throw money at it.

So let's wipe Rioch and Todd and Allardyce from the record books coz none of them should've happened. We couldn't afford them.

There has clearly been a problem the last couple of years and I suspect a genuine Bolton fan might have taken an overstretched punt to try and get us back in the Prem.

Which would be fine if he'd given it one last gamble. But the gamble was taken with other loans (that we are now finding out about) and means there is debt elsewhere that puts the club in a far less stable position.

It is this that is the problem. Not the debt to Eddie or his backing of the club for many years financially. It is the last few years and the fact that either heads were buried in the sand or undue risks were taken.

So exactly the type of loans we had propping us up, when he joined the Board then?

[BWFC_Insane]

So exactly the type of loans we had propping us up, when he joined the Board then?

Yes. And the previous board were widely pilloried for that mess.

I'm not suggesting this is something that is an easy fix or that there is a magic pill to take. Just that above all threatening the future of the football club should have been avoided. Even if it meant so bitterly horrible painful decisions along the way.

Eddie did wonders for us but it is a shame this is how it is ending.