The ianevattable sacking

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

How long? It's difficult for me to put a number on it, but I'll try a formula.

Excluding the Barrow game, because he should get the international break to work on things (even if I'm losing a lot of my faith it will work), he should go after the next defeat if it hasn't been preceded by at least two successive wins.

As I say, I expect a title-chasing team - and for clarity, I expect us to be a title-chasing team; even if we don't get the title, I expect us to chase it - to win all the games between here and the Oct 22 game at Birmingham, with the two exceptions of Huddersfield (draw acceptable if performance good) and Arsenal (free hit).

[Worthy4England]

WWLL would still put us further adrift of 2ppg...tricky innit? Our ppg to hit 2ppg is already nearing 2.1...after just 4 games...as the fixtures can out, this 4 didn't look like Group of Death. Acknowledging you gave to beat what's out there in front of you...

Someone said after Orient, that was 2 points better off than last year...Exeter was 3 worse off and -9 GD.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

WWLL would still put us further adrift of 2ppg...tricky innit? Our ppg to hit 2ppg is already nearing 2.1...after just 4 games...as the fixtures can out, this 4 didn't look like Group of Death. Acknowledging you gave to beat what's out there in front of you...

Oh for sure. I meant that for the next two, three months he needs to keep putting a whole lot of Ws on the board just to keep his job. If he does enough of that the PPG will look after itself.

Will he? Dunno. Doubt grows with every defeat.

I wouldn't turf him now, but let's just say if he left I would be considerably less sad than at any previous point in his reign – even including those terrible early days. When Vale beat us 6-3 I was horrified but I suspected there was something in this manager and his style of play. Four years later I've seen that there *is* something, but eventually all managers display their limitations.

[BWFC_Insane]

WWLL would still put us further adrift of 2ppg...tricky innit? Our ppg to hit 2ppg is already nearing 2.1...after just 4 games...as the fixtures can out, this 4 didn't look like Group of Death. Acknowledging you gave to beat what's out there in front of you...

Oh for sure. I meant that for the next two, three months he needs to keep putting a whole lot of Ws on the board just to keep his job. If he does enough of that the PPG will look after itself.

Will he? Dunno. Doubt grows with every defeat.

I wouldn't turf him now, but let's just say if he left I would be considerably less sad than at any previous point in his reign – even including those terrible early days. When Vale beat us 6-3 I was horrified but I suspected there was something in this manager and his style of play. Four years later I've seen that there *is* something, but eventually all managers display their limitations.

I obviously haven’t believed in him for a while.

But you clearly have. So do you think there is an option that you would believe in out there? I’m interested. It’s easy for me to say, Evatt out. I have lost faith and feel we are just going to be treading water. And I can suggest very different alternatives but even if Evatt does go (which I think unlikely) I accept that my alternatives are even more unlikely.

It’s one thing for people who don’t really believe in this sort of ‘project’ style football management like me but I guess I fundamentally don’t believe this approach gets us out of league one. Whereas I suspect you do - so is there someone you feel is more likely than Evatt?

[tankcopters n aids]

Get rid now. It gives the new manager more of the season to go at.

Everymon and his dog knows he's not taking us up. Can tell even he knows it, it just hides behind the bluster, bullshit and waffle.

A fresh approach is needed asap put him out of his misery, Sharon.

[DJBlu]

Why are some people trying to defend him as he's only had 4 games - he's not only had 4 games, he's had around 36 since NYD and has won what 12 ?

Also, the majority of the team is the same as in those 36 games - seriously why does he need more games ?, is he going to change the way we play, instruct the team to stop tip tapping about, are the players going to pass quicker, play with more urgency, tempo, intensity - are the players going to start delivering good corners & free kicks, are the wing backs going to get forward and deliver decent crosses.

Those defending Evatt please tell - what will giving him even more time achieve, he won't change anything - he's convinced himself (and I assume the board ?), that his way is the only way to get promoted and then stay up. He came 5 years ago as a bit of a visionary with his Barrowcelona stuff, but 5 years later he's actually become a dinosaur set in his obsessed way.

Have a look at the league table Marc Iles has put on twitter.

We're 7th from 1 Jan 2024 to 1 Sep 2024.

Regardless of what we think the numbers don't lie. He's never finished lower than the season before. This is a "bad" run, and we missed out on promotion by one game.

Missed out on playoffs, got playoffs.
Lost to Barnsley in semi, beat them to get to final.
Lost in the final, who knows?

You don't want to see it like that and that's on you, nobody else. If others want to look at what he's done and say you know what that's not bad then that's on them.

If you think you're the only one hurting from Wembley then you're mistaken, the players, management and fans all took a hit and it's going to take more than 4 or 5 games to shake off the hangover.

[Worthy4England]

7th would not be a good performance, for me, and would be worse than 5th/3rd. That's part of what people are seeing...

[irie Cee Bee]

Evatts post match comments in BN that I read this morning made me want to vomit.. Excuses..injuries, tiredness, new players, lack of pre season...Jeez. he thought about changes at half time but "decided" not to make them to give the players 10 more minuted.. That was the icing on the cake for me. The players failed him but they have excuses why they did so.. He clearly has no clue what to do.or how to fix it. Most of us know this now even though this was clear from last season.. if FV have any ambition to go up this month after the investments they have made, they must act now and move him. It will only get worse if they dont.

[The_Gun]

7th would not be a good performance, for me, and would be worse than 5th/3rd. That's part of what people are seeing...

Seventh would be a terrible performance. Second is par, for me, given what we’ve spent.

[BWFC_Insane]

Why are some people trying to defend him as he's only had 4 games - he's not only had 4 games, he's had around 36 since NYD and has won what 12 ?

Also, the majority of the team is the same as in those 36 games - seriously why does he need more games ?, is he going to change the way we play, instruct the team to stop tip tapping about, are the players going to pass quicker, play with more urgency, tempo, intensity - are the players going to start delivering good corners & free kicks, are the wing backs going to get forward and deliver decent crosses.

Those defending Evatt please tell - what will giving him even more time achieve, he won't change anything - he's convinced himself (and I assume the board ?), that his way is the only way to get promoted and then stay up. He came 5 years ago as a bit of a visionary with his Barrowcelona stuff, but 5 years later he's actually become a dinosaur set in his obsessed way.

Have a look at the league table Marc Iles has put on twitter.

We're 7th from 1 Jan 2024 to 1 Sep 2024.

Regardless of what we think the numbers don't lie. He's never finished lower than the season before. This is a "bad" run, and we missed out on promotion by one game.

Missed out on playoffs, got playoffs.
Lost to Barnsley in semi, beat them to get to final.
Lost in the final, who knows?

You don't want to see it like that and that's on you, nobody else. If others want to look at what he's done and say you know what that's not bad then that's on them.

If you think you're the only one hurting from Wembley then you're mistaken, the players, management and fans all took a hit and it's going to take more than 4 or 5 games to shake off the hangover.

His record is exactly the same as Phil Neal’s only he’s had a tonne more resources - money to spend that Neal (and Rioch after him) can only dream of.

Are you one who wanted Neal to stay?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

WWLL would still put us further adrift of 2ppg...tricky innit? Our ppg to hit 2ppg is already nearing 2.1...after just 4 games...as the fixtures can out, this 4 didn't look like Group of Death. Acknowledging you gave to beat what's out there in front of you...

Oh for sure. I meant that for the next two, three months he needs to keep putting a whole lot of Ws on the board just to keep his job. If he does enough of that the PPG will look after itself.

Will he? Dunno. Doubt grows with every defeat.

I wouldn't turf him now, but let's just say if he left I would be considerably less sad than at any previous point in his reign – even including those terrible early days. When Vale beat us 6-3 I was horrified but I suspected there was something in this manager and his style of play. Four years later I've seen that there *is* something, but eventually all managers display their limitations.

I obviously haven’t believed in him for a while.

But you clearly have. So do you think there is an option that you would believe in out there? I’m interested. It’s easy for me to say, Evatt out. I have lost faith and feel we are just going to be treading water. And I can suggest very different alternatives but even if Evatt does go (which I think unlikely) I accept that my alternatives are even more unlikely.

It’s one thing for people who don’t really believe in this sort of ‘project’ style football management like me but I guess I fundamentally don’t believe this approach gets us out of league one. Whereas I suspect you do - so is there someone you feel is more likely than Evatt?

Completely fair question, mate.

For a season or three I've been thinking off and on about Ryan Lowe, but perhaps mainly because he plays wingbacks so he could probably utilise this squad quite quickly without a huge January overhaul. I also think he's capable of doing a decent Champo job, because we have to be honest that we're looking at two job descriptions: take us up and don't take us back down. Plenty of managers like Ainsworth and Warne have been organised in this tier and outclassed in the one above. (And yes, the style of play matters to me.)

However, I'm not yearning for Lowe as I appreciate there is evidence against him – unpopular with a vocal slice of PNE; his two promotions were from tier four (although he left Plymouth well-placed); didn't cut a swathe through the Champo (although it's a tough division and their positions did improve season on season), and could be very streaky (but so could Parky, Sam and most managers in the history of ever).

What I would want is someone who fits the model. Given the last two seasons I don't think we're far enough away to set fire to not just the blueprints but the entire desk. That could be someone like Ghost's suggestions of Skubala and Selles. We could take a chance on the latest up-and-comer following in the footsteps of Luke Williams, Mike Williamson or indeed Evatt (even if he fails now it's worked to an extent).

But it could also be someone we've never heard of. For all the understandable desire to hire a drill sergeant, recent history suggests younger managers do well. Mousinho took Pompey up just after his 38th birthday in his first full season in his first mangerial job. Buckingham had just turned 39, in his first job in England (previously NZ & India). Plymouth's Schumacher had just turned 39, first managerial job. Ipswich's McKenna - first job, promoted just before his 37th birthday (and then again just before his 38th). Leam Richardson, second managerial job (seven years after his first), promoted at 42. It's becoming a young manager's game, or rather a young coach's game.

[irie Cee Bee]

Evatts post match comments in BN that I read this morning made me want to vomit.. Excuses..injuries, tiredness, new players, lack of pre season...Jeez. he thought about changes at half time but "decided" not to make them to give the players 10 more minuted.. That was the icing on the cake for me. The players failed him but they have excuses why they did so.. He clearly has no clue what to do.or how to fix it. Most of us know this now even though this was clear from last season.. if FV have any ambition to go up this season after the investments they have made, they must act now and move him. It will only get worse if they dont.

[BWFC_Insane]

WWLL would still put us further adrift of 2ppg...tricky innit? Our ppg to hit 2ppg is already nearing 2.1...after just 4 games...as the fixtures can out, this 4 didn't look like Group of Death. Acknowledging you gave to beat what's out there in front of you...

Oh for sure. I meant that for the next two, three months he needs to keep putting a whole lot of Ws on the board just to keep his job. If he does enough of that the PPG will look after itself.

Will he? Dunno. Doubt grows with every defeat.

I wouldn't turf him now, but let's just say if he left I would be considerably less sad than at any previous point in his reign – even including those terrible early days. When Vale beat us 6-3 I was horrified but I suspected there was something in this manager and his style of play. Four years later I've seen that there *is* something, but eventually all managers display their limitations.

I obviously haven’t believed in him for a while.

But you clearly have. So do you think there is an option that you would believe in out there? I’m interested. It’s easy for me to say, Evatt out. I have lost faith and feel we are just going to be treading water. And I can suggest very different alternatives but even if Evatt does go (which I think unlikely) I accept that my alternatives are even more unlikely.

It’s one thing for people who don’t really believe in this sort of ‘project’ style football management like me but I guess I fundamentally don’t believe this approach gets us out of league one. Whereas I suspect you do - so is there someone you feel is more likely than Evatt?

Completely fair question, mate.

For a season or three I've been thinking off and on about Ryan Lowe, but perhaps mainly because he plays wingbacks so he could probably utilise this squad quite quickly without a huge January overhaul. I also think he's capable of doing a decent Champo job, because we have to be honest that we're looking at two job descriptions: take us up and don't take us back down. Plenty of managers like Ainsworth and Warne have been organised in this tier and outclassed in the one above. (And yes, the style of play matters to me.)

However, I'm not yearning for Lowe as I appreciate there is evidence against him – unpopular with a vocal slice of PNE; his two promotions were from tier four (although he left Plymouth well-placed); didn't cut a swathe through the Champo (although it's a tough division and their positions did improve season on season), and could be very streaky (but so could Parky, Sam and most managers in the history of ever).

What I would want is someone who fits the model. Given the last two seasons I don't think we're far enough away to set fire to not just the blueprints but the entire desk. That could be someone like Ghost's suggestions of Skubala and Selles. We could take a chance on the latest up-and-comer following in the footsteps of Luke Williams, Mike Williamson or indeed Evatt (even if he fails now it's worked to an extent).

But it could also be someone we've never heard of. For all the understandable desire to hire a drill sergeant, recent history suggests younger managers do well. Mousinho took Pompey up just after his 38th birthday in his first full season in his first mangerial job. Buckingham had just turned 39, in his first job in England (previously NZ & India). Plymouth's Schumacher had just turned 39, first managerial job. Ipswich's McKenna - first job, promoted just before his 37th birthday (and then again just before his 38th). Leam Richardson, second managerial job (seven years after his first), promoted at 42. It's becoming a young manager's game, or rather a young coach's game.

Lowe is an interesting one in that one would assume he was above our station but clearly struggled somewhat at Preston and the suggestion that Schumacher was the brains behind it all. But I certainly wouldn’t object.

Skubala and Selles certainly fit the model and I suspect if there was desire on FVs part are obtainable and again - I wouldn’t be objecting. Wouldn’t be my picks but both make sense if you are wedded to an approach.

I’d absolutely steer well clear of Williamson after the play off catastrophe for them last season. That for me would be a major concern.

How about Challinor?

[DJBlu]

Why are some people trying to defend him as he's only had 4 games - he's not only had 4 games, he's had around 36 since NYD and has won what 12 ?

Also, the majority of the team is the same as in those 36 games - seriously why does he need more games ?, is he going to change the way we play, instruct the team to stop tip tapping about, are the players going to pass quicker, play with more urgency, tempo, intensity - are the players going to start delivering good corners & free kicks, are the wing backs going to get forward and deliver decent crosses.

Those defending Evatt please tell - what will giving him even more time achieve, he won't change anything - he's convinced himself (and I assume the board ?), that his way is the only way to get promoted and then stay up. He came 5 years ago as a bit of a visionary with his Barrowcelona stuff, but 5 years later he's actually become a dinosaur set in his obsessed way.

Have a look at the league table Marc Iles has put on twitter.

We're 7th from 1 Jan 2024 to 1 Sep 2024.

Regardless of what we think the numbers don't lie. He's never finished lower than the season before. This is a "bad" run, and we missed out on promotion by one game.

Missed out on playoffs, got playoffs.
Lost to Barnsley in semi, beat them to get to final.
Lost in the final, who knows?

You don't want to see it like that and that's on you, nobody else. If others want to look at what he's done and say you know what that's not bad then that's on them.

If you think you're the only one hurting from Wembley then you're mistaken, the players, management and fans all took a hit and it's going to take more than 4 or 5 games to shake off the hangover.

His record is exactly the same as Phil Neal’s only he’s had a tonne more resources - money to spend that Neal (and Rioch after him) can only dream of.

Are you one who wanted Neal to stay?

Wasn't Phil Neal in charge for circa 7 years? Not old enough to have lived through his tenure, too busy climbing trees etc.

He guided us from Div 4 to 3 and a Sherpa cup with a trip to Wembley where we lost to Tranmere.

Although similar it is not exactly the same. Ian has achieved a greater win ratio and in less time achieved and has the same accolades as Phil Neal. Given the extra time Phil was afforded then who knows.

Where does Phil Neal rank in successful post war Managers?

If you endured the so called dismal football of then 80s then you surely don't think this is exactly the same?

[Bertie Wooster]

How about Challinor?

Why would he leave Stockport to come here ?

Alex Neil is the man.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Lowe is an interesting one in that one would assume he was above our station but clearly struggled somewhat at Preston and the suggestion that Schumacher was the brains behind it all. But I certainly wouldn’t object.

Skubala and Selles certainly fit the model and I suspect if there was desire on FVs part are obtainable and again - I wouldn’t be objecting. Wouldn’t be my picks but both make sense if you are wedded to an approach.

I’d absolutely steer well clear of Williamson after the play off catastrophe for them last season. That for me would be a major concern.

How about Challinor?

If we didn't appoint managers with a playoff catastrophe on their CV, we'd never have hired Sam. Wonder what Blackpool did with those suits? Fair point, it's a black mark, but I just meant that type of manager - Williamson very impressive in non-league, into D4, manager of the month, playoffs...

The idea about Schumacher being the brains behind Lowe (who would, I assume, be interested in this job) strikes me as a retrofit. If Lowe was useless without him, PNE wouldn't have stayed up, let alone improved position year on year – and had spells in there when they threatened more. As I say I'm far from totally sold on Lowe but he's one of the more 'established' options.

Challinor - interesting shout. Obvious instinctive dislike Because Tranmere but I know that's my character defect. He's yet another who's come up through non-league, and they went up again last season because of high pressing and aggression out of possession, with high possession rates - very Evattian, at best - but also being very good at set pieces. And switching from Challinor's favoured back three to different formations (including a back four) as necessary. None of these are bad things.

One question [EDIT: already asked!] is, would he swap 1st-placed Stockport for 18th-placed Bolton? The answer might come from Hartlepool, whom he left in the Football League for non-league Stockport... but I guess they waved a big chequebook at him and he did have an Edgeley Park back story.

[BWFC_Insane]

Why are some people trying to defend him as he's only had 4 games - he's not only had 4 games, he's had around 36 since NYD and has won what 12 ?

Also, the majority of the team is the same as in those 36 games - seriously why does he need more games ?, is he going to change the way we play, instruct the team to stop tip tapping about, are the players going to pass quicker, play with more urgency, tempo, intensity - are the players going to start delivering good corners & free kicks, are the wing backs going to get forward and deliver decent crosses.

Those defending Evatt please tell - what will giving him even more time achieve, he won't change anything - he's convinced himself (and I assume the board ?), that his way is the only way to get promoted and then stay up. He came 5 years ago as a bit of a visionary with his Barrowcelona stuff, but 5 years later he's actually become a dinosaur set in his obsessed way.

Have a look at the league table Marc Iles has put on twitter.

We're 7th from 1 Jan 2024 to 1 Sep 2024.

Regardless of what we think the numbers don't lie. He's never finished lower than the season before. This is a "bad" run, and we missed out on promotion by one game.

Missed out on playoffs, got playoffs.
Lost to Barnsley in semi, beat them to get to final.
Lost in the final, who knows?

You don't want to see it like that and that's on you, nobody else. If others want to look at what he's done and say you know what that's not bad then that's on them.

If you think you're the only one hurting from Wembley then you're mistaken, the players, management and fans all took a hit and it's going to take more than 4 or 5 games to shake off the hangover.

His record is exactly the same as Phil Neal’s only he’s had a tonne more resources - money to spend that Neal (and Rioch after him) can only dream of.

Are you one who wanted Neal to stay?

Wasn't Phil Neal in charge for circa 7 years? Not old enough to have lived through his tenure, too busy climbing trees etc.

He guided us from Div 4 to 3 and a Sherpa cup with a trip to Wembley where we lost to Tranmere.

Although similar it is not exactly the same. Ian has achieved a greater win ratio and in less time achieved and has the same accolades as Phil Neal. Given the extra time Phil was afforded then who knows.

Where does Phil Neal rank in successful post war Managers?

If you endured the so called dismal football of then 80s then you surely don't think this is exactly the same?

We might have quite reasonably gone out of existence in the 80’s. It was that bad. Which offered some mitigation for Neal - he also was for a time player managed.

But it became apparent that he wasn’t going to get us out of this league. It’s not totally identical to Evatt. He took us down before getting us back up but what has happened since is.

If the club was in such a poor financial state as Neal had to work under then I think again Evatt would get a huge amount of mitigation. But he’s spent an absolute fortune and that’s the issue. He’s been able to build multiple sides spending a lot of money in the process. And I think if you do that and can’t get the job done you can’t really complain.

[BWFC_Insane]

Lowe is an interesting one in that one would assume he was above our station but clearly struggled somewhat at Preston and the suggestion that Schumacher was the brains behind it all. But I certainly wouldn’t object.

Skubala and Selles certainly fit the model and I suspect if there was desire on FVs part are obtainable and again - I wouldn’t be objecting. Wouldn’t be my picks but both make sense if you are wedded to an approach.

I’d absolutely steer well clear of Williamson after the play off catastrophe for them last season. That for me would be a major concern.

How about Challinor?

If we didn't appoint managers with a playoff catastrophe on their CV, we'd never have hired Sam. Wonder what Blackpool did with those suits? Fair point, it's a black mark, but I just meant that type of manager - Williamson very impressive in non-league, into D4, manager of the month, playoffs...

The idea about Schumacher being the brains behind Lowe (who would, I assume, be interested in this job) strikes me as a retrofit. If Lowe was useless without him, PNE wouldn't have stayed up, let alone improved position year on year – and had spells in there when they threatened more. As I say I'm far from totally sold on Lowe but he's one of the more 'established' options.

Challinor - interesting shout. Obvious instinctive dislike Because Tranmere but I know that's my character defect. He's yet another who's come up through non-league, and they went up again last season because of high pressing and aggression out of possession, with high possession rates - very Evattian, at best - but also being very good at set pieces. And switching from Challinor's favoured back three to different formations (including a back four) as necessary. None of these are bad things.

One question [EDIT: already asked!] is, would he swap 1st-placed Stockport for 18th-placed Bolton? The answer might come from Hartlepool, whom he left in the Football League for non-league Stockport... but I guess they waved a big chequebook at him and he did have an Edgeley Park back story.

It’s a fair question and nobody knows the answer. But I’d wager there is a chance because Stockport is not equivalent to Bolton Wanderers no matter the current position. Not unlike Parky leaving Bradford to work for Ken Anderson in terms of I’m sure it would raise some eyebrows.

Challinor I see as a compromise type appointment. Similar to Evatt in many ways but with a more pragmatic edge and more flexibility in approach.

[Worthy4England]

The other thing we have to factor is how much it would cost to get shut. He has the thick end of 2 years along with anyone else exiting. I'm reckoning when he got 3 years, no one was contemplating this discussion might even be occurring, 12 months later...

I agree we'd need someone who could work with what we have, I'm not at all fussed about keeping possession for possession's sake. It's largely boring.

[Bertie Wooster]

I'm not saying that he's lost the dressing room as no one knows, but it does look like a few of the players have perhaps stopped believing him, stopped listening to him, there is certainly some disharmony - quite a few arguments, finger pointing etc. amongst the players yesterday.

I'm not convinced that the players like this new plan A 2.0 formation, I think they are confused by it.