Wanderers Vs Man U

[Wandering Willy]

Yeah but think who he's passing it to.

If Jussi doesn't hump it upfield and gives it to Robinson, what do you think he's going to do?

Robbo would just lump it forward himself with the same end product ....
Can't blame Jussi on this one, Robbo looks nervous as hell on the ball and with one of his outlets being Zat Knight I don't blame Jussi for kicking it as far away from that lot as possible.

Evidence would suggest that you are both completely wrong.

In the four games this season Robinson has attempted 140 passes with a success rate of 73%. He has attempted 2 long passes from within his own half, both unsuccessful, one of which was a cross field ball.

The majority of passes are along the left wing to Petrov and inside to the midfield. The idea that he is a hoofer has no basis.

However, don't let the facts get in the way of slagging him off at every opportunity.

[Lord Kangana]

That evidence would mean that Petrov is providing him with a suitable outlet then.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah but think who he's passing it to.

If Jussi doesn't hump it upfield and gives it to Robinson, what do you think he's going to do?

Robbo would just lump it forward himself with the same end product ....
Can't blame Jussi on this one, Robbo looks nervous as hell on the ball and with one of his outlets being Zat Knight I don't blame Jussi for kicking it as far away from that lot as possible.

Evidence would suggest that you are both completely wrong.

In the four games this season Robinson has attempted 140 passes with a success rate of 73%. He has attempted 2 long passes from within his own half, both unsuccessful, one of which was a cross field ball.

The majority of passes are along the left wing to Petrov and inside to the midfield. The idea that he is a hoofer has no basis.

However, don't let the facts get in the way of slagging him off at every opportunity.

Aye, Robbo is decent on the ball. Its his defending up against natural wingers that causes problems, but in possession its a myth that Robinson is just a "hoof and hope". He's actually one of our better passers, as the stats highlight!

[Beefheart]

It was the same case last season, I think he completed the most passes of anyone in our team? Could be wrong.

[Wandering Willy]

That evidence would mean that Petrov is providing him with a suitable outlet then.

Very much so Brian (sic).

They appear to work well together in possession - it's when we don't have the ball that a bit more support is needed from the winger.

Edit: He also is given options by the other midfielders.

[boltonboris]

Like you say, ball retention is vital to "passing" teams. We should be much better at it, especially as we've still (for now) got Cahill who doesn't act like he's just been presented with a pinless grenade.

It's the midfielders inability to anything with the ball rather than pass it straight back to whoever game the thing in the first place, that's the problem

Muamba does my head in with this. People always say he's got an decent pass completion rate whenever people take a poke is his distribution. But all he ever seems to do is come short, take a pass from Cahill and then under no pressure give it him straight back without so much as looking over his shoulder. I wouldn't normally mind, but when he gives it back, it's usually bobbling about all over the shop and a good 6 or 7 yards away from where the defender was originally stood.

[Wandering Willy]

Like you say, ball retention is vital to "passing" teams. We should be much better at it, especially as we've still (for now) got Cahill who doesn't act like he's just been presented with a pinless grenade.

It's the midfielders inability to anything with the ball rather than pass it straight back to whoever game the thing in the first place, that's the problem

Muamba does my head in with this. People always say he's got an decent pass completion rate whenever people take a poke is his distribution. But all he ever seems to do is come short, take a pass from Cahill and then under no pressure give it him straight back without so much as looking over his shoulder. I wouldn't normally mind, but when he gives it back, it's usually bobbling about all over the shop and a good 6 or 7 yards away from where the defender was originally stood.

Not sure this is true but it's difficult to prove/disprove.

Muamba's not the most creative midfielder but that's not his job. If he can get the ball out to the wing or AM with short passes that would be fine. The problem often lies with the lack of options offered up front - it's hard to critcise midfield for not creating when they have nobody making themselves open.

Hopefully this will change with some new blood in.

[Beefheart]

Like you say, ball retention is vital to "passing" teams. We should be much better at it, especially as we've still (for now) got Cahill who doesn't act like he's just been presented with a pinless grenade.

It's the midfielders inability to anything with the ball rather than pass it straight back to whoever game the thing in the first place, that's the problem

Muamba does my head in with this. People always say he's got an decent pass completion rate whenever people take a poke is his distribution. But all he ever seems to do is come short, take a pass from Cahill and then under no pressure give it him straight back without so much as looking over his shoulder. I wouldn't normally mind, but when he gives it back, it's usually bobbling about all over the shop and a good 6 or 7 yards away from where the defender was originally stood.

Not sure this is true but it's difficult to prove/disprove.

Muamba's not the most creative midfielder but that's not his job. If he can get the ball out to the wing or AM with short passes that would be fine. The problem often lies with the lack of options offered up front - it's hard to critcise midfield for not creating when they have nobody making themselves open.

Hopefully this will change with some new blood in.

I think the problem with Muamba, when you compare him with Reo-Coker, is that while neither are particularly creative Reo-Coker will usually make himself available to receive the ball like a proper holding midfielder.

[Lord Kangana]

Movement. Thats the issue. We haven't got enough of it. Which is fine if you're playing a Megson style game where fear of the ball comes as standard, but we need the damn thing with the players we've got. If you watch what good teams do (like City and United) it isn't just inspirational genius that is constantly finding men in the same coloured shirts, its options.

As a team, we need to want the ball more, and we need to show for it more. I think this is still a relic of the Allardyce days hanging on, where we had set positions on the pitch to allow us to be more solid. We've somehow got to throw those shackles off and start showing for the ball more. Lord knows we've now got a far greater pool of mobile players, it should be well within our capabilities.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Nothing per se wrong with having "set positions" on the pitch, LK. At La Masia Barcelona teach their kids to divide the pitch up into a set number of squares and make sure there's always at least one player in each one as an "out". But obviously they do it with much less structural rigidity than most... and as you say, our current crop should be able to pass and move the ball much better.

Thinking on that, and a propos of the Robinson comments, I've been looking a bit more at our passing patterns and comparing how "pairs" of players compared against the rags. Apologies if it seems like overkill, but it does seem to be the discussion de jour.

Knight and Cahill - obviously Gaz is a better ball-man than Zat but as a general rule, you don't want your centre-backs playing long balls - it's usually a sign of creative redundancy (bad news when England do it, much better when United do...). From either man, almost every forward ball longer than 20 yards didn't reach its target.



Maybe they should be finding their full-backs Robbo and Boyata. As noted, Robbo (whatever his other tendencies) isn't a hoofer and has worked up a decent understanding with Petrov. On the other side, Boyata completed 37 out of 39 passes, which isn't bad at all. Many of them were short recycles, which is either neat and tidy or unadventurous, depending on your mood. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for now and hope that he could continue such passing efficiency in the centre of defence.



M. Davies & Reo-Coker - Davies did reasonably well but the future captain (FBCNRC?) was just about our best player. Only Anderson and Ferdinand completed more passes; only Rooney and Nani completed more in the attacking third; nobody attempted more tackles; nobody made more interceptions. Both central midfielders were better than the defenders at slightly longer, more adventurous diagonal balls – as you'd expect, but also as you'd hope we'd realise and work on.



Where it might fall down a bit is with the wingers. Obviously the higher up the pitch you go the less likely you are to complete your passes, otherwise you could walk it in and Arsene Wenger would stop being such a miserable ballbag. But Petrov and Eagles didn't frighten the filth's full-backs much. (I've restricted Petrov to the first 62 minutes, after which Eagles went off; in total he completed 29 of 36, including a fine 30-yard diagonal to the far corner, but you could argue he could easily have been the one substituted.) There's an almost complete lack of final-third "killer ball" – which might be down to a lack of movement up front – and although it's not shown here, only one successful "take-on" (dribble) past an opponent out wide in United's half… which was by Ivan Klasnic.



And so to the forwards, K. Davies and Klasnic. Obviously, Brian, passing isn't the focus of their game… but it's my focus today, so tough titties. And after another bad day at the office, you can see why Coyle again felt the need to remove his captain (as with the wingers, for fair comparison I've restricted it to when the first man went off, namely KD on 65 – for the record, Klasnic completed three of his four passes in the next 10 minutes before he too was hoiked off). Frequently coming deep (ie not being tactically inflexible and stuck in a box), the Croatian rarely gave it away. Sadly, for the first time this season he failed to complete a pass into the back of the net…



Pratley completed 11 of his 12 passes, Tuncay 8 of his 10, Ngog 7 of his 10. Kev can't be happy with a 57% pass rate. Neither can Coyle. Admittedly the skipper throws himself in where others wouldn't dare, no greater servant, etc, but you do wonder if Coyle's aim to pass the thing would be better served by the new breed.

[elfil76]

Yes we have the mobile players and will be of any use if they are on the field and not the bench.

[Lofthouse Lower]

I think I love you Dave, but I'm intimidated by you

[Sponge]

Where it might fall down a bit is with the wingers. Obviously the higher up the pitch you go the less likely you are to complete your passes, otherwise you could walk it in and Arsene Wenger would stop being such a miserable ballbag. But Petrov and Eagles didn't frighten the filth's full-backs much. (I've restricted Petrov to the first 62 minutes, after which Eagles went off; in total he completed 29 of 36, including a fine 30-yard diagonal to the far corner, but you could argue he could easily have been the one substituted.) There's an almost complete lack of final-third "killer ball" – which might be down to a lack of movement up front – and although it's not shown here, only one successful "take-on" (dribble) past an opponent out wide in United's half… which was by Ivan Klasnic.

re Petrov: do these stats not include crosses into the box? Perhaps it was mostly in the final 30 minutes, but I saw him ping some great balls in there—the problem being, of course, that there was nobody attacking them (no wonder he gets grumpy). Hopefully Ngog can be the player to get on the end of them.

And I'm happy to see those stats on Robinson—I've always believed he is a decent passer (a couple of goals last season came from some beautiful long balls he played).

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I think I love you Dave, but I'm intimidated by you

Don't be startled. I only want to talk.

Apologies if that post rather dominated the page, or looked like promotion for the day-job. I've spent a lot of time arsing around with that software – wider-topic blogs here and here, if anyone cares – and I'm starting to think it's rather useful...

[Sponge]

I think I love you Dave, but I'm intimidated by you

Don't be startled. I only want to talk.

Apologies if that post rather dominated the page, or looked like promotion for the day-job. I've spent a lot of time arsing around with that software – wider-topic blogs here and here, if anyone cares – and I'm starting to think it's rather useful...

It's fascinating, thanks.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

re Petrov: do these stats not include crosses into the box? Perhaps it was mostly in the final 30 minutes, but I saw him ping some great balls in there—the problem being, of course, that there was nobody attacking them (no wonder he gets grumpy). Hopefully Ngog can be the player to get on the end of them.

Don't quote the whole post, fer gawds sake, you'll get me bloody well hung...

Yer right – doesn't include crosses. (Like I say, still learning how to use the thing.) Perhaps for the best...

[Lord Kangana]

Have you got Rooney's equivalent to those movement chart?

Only, it seems to me that our players seem to very rigid areas of the pitch.. Eagles is all down the right touchline, Petrov down the left etc. I'm positive with United's you'd see one or two fo their players (but my hunch is prinicipally Rooney) collecting and moving the ball all over the shop. Its that variety and movement that can destroy a rigid formation.

I could or course be wrong.

[Wandering Willy]

Good work DSB.

As a matter of interest is the software you use the same as the Guardian chalkboard stuff?

[BWFC_Insane]

Have you got Rooney's equivalent to those movement chart?

Only, it seems to me that our players seem to very rigid areas of the pitch.. Eagles is all down the right touchline, Petrov down the left etc. I'm positive with United's you'd see one or two fo their players (but my hunch is prinicipally Rooney) collecting and moving the ball all over the shop. Its that variety and movement that can destroy a rigid formation.

I could or course be wrong.

Suspect you are right, but just to point out the arrows show passes the players made rather than movement per se!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Willy - no, it's a similar idea but different software we've had developed (at much less expense... )

Have you got Rooney's equivalent to those movement chart?

First thing is that those aren't movements - they're passes, ending where the arrow points (EDIT - as BWFCi has already said). But obviously the positions of the start points show where the player was at given points. Below is the passing from Rooney and Ferdinand (one of only two players to outpass NRC, and a centre-back, which says something). Rooney's arrows - as well as being more varied than most in length and scope – show his well-known taste for coming deep (missus)... but so do Klasnic's (for which see earlier post).



This screen shows players' average position over the 90 minutes (with name size showing influence - the bigger the name, the more involved the player). We do indeed look very 4-4-2 but to an extent so do they, while both right-wingers seem to be coming in off the flank. (Most interesting one of these I've seen is QPR's very central thrust compared with Newcastle's 4-4-2 - see here.)