Freedman out!

[BWFC_Insane]

The longer we wait, the shorter the list of suitable managers gets. If Freedman is sacked after losing the next 5 games, I find it hard to imagine a manager like Pulis would be interested in joining us because we'd then have lost so many points already, the playoffs would be a very tough ask for any manager. However, if we were to act quickly, we'd still in a position to attract a good manager because everything is still possible for us, including promotion. That is slipping away with every game though and I don't think any good manager will want to stay in the Championship for a season and a half, they'll want to get managing in the Premier League as quickly as possible.

How do we decide who is 'good enough'? If that list is simply of managers who are better than Freedman, it's not exactly a short one. Out of all the managers in the Championship, who are worse than Freedman? Someone like David Flitcroft has a much better win percentage than Freedman, and that's with Barnsley!

IMO you can't just start pulling out short term results as an argument to suggest someone is a better manager.

Surely all the hope that Freedman is a good manager rests upon a short period though? Freedman has only 16 wins as Bolton manager, yet 10 of those wins came during a 15 game period. If you ignore that run, we've had 6 wins in 32 games under Freedman.

But he did get those wins, and quite possibly could again.
As for potential managers, not much point sacking him, paying him off, then paying compensation for someone who is marginally less shit.

Possibly, yeah, I'm not trying to discredit Freedman there. That reply was because of what BWFCi said previously. If he is going to discount 'good runs', then what else does Freedman have going for him aside from one 15 game period? Very little.

Just to be clear it isn't so much discounting good runs. My point was that directly comparing current performance can be very misleading where managers are concerned. It pays to take a broader view. Frankly if Paul Ince pitches up here I'd be gutted. Not only because I don't think he's that great but also because I can't stand the bloke!

[thebish]

DSB - Sorry yeah, I'm not putting my point across very well here. The dressing-room incident kind of distracted me from the point I'm actually trying to make.

I'm not saying that B&HA are referring to the dressing room incident (of which Poyet denies having any involvement in) when they say gross misconduct but the mere fact that they found something to class as gross misconduct and then his appeal not being upheld is enough to make me feel uneasy about him coming to us.

This thread has completlely digressed, pointlessly as well, as I don't think we'll be changing manager anytime soon anyway, but I do apologise.

Caps - "I just hope Gartside aint daft enough to listen to a few cretins who think changing the manager changes owt" This, this, this. With big shiny bells on.

That sums up why women no now't about sport
I hope fat Phil is gone as well!!!!

hmmmm - except that was the opinion of someone we assume to be a man... she merely repeated it....

[Lord Kangana]

The sources in my head can exclusively reveal that points are no longer important because I say so.

[Wandering Willy]

I just hope Gartside aint daft enough to listen to a few cretins who think changing the manager changes owt

Didn't you want a change of manager when Coyle was here?

[89bwfc89]

DSB - Sorry yeah, I'm not putting my point across very well here. The dressing-room incident kind of distracted me from the point I'm actually trying to make.

I'm not saying that B&HA are referring to the dressing room incident (of which Poyet denies having any involvement in) when they say gross misconduct but the mere fact that they found something to class as gross misconduct and then his appeal not being upheld is enough to make me feel uneasy about him coming to us.

This thread has completlely digressed, pointlessly as well, as I don't think we'll be changing manager anytime soon anyway, but I do apologise.

Caps - "I just hope Gartside aint daft enough to listen to a few cretins who think changing the manager changes owt" This, this, this. With big shiny bells on.

That sums up why women no now't about sport
I hope fat Phil is gone as well!!!!

hmmmm - except that was the opinion of someone we assume to be a man... she merely repeated it....

Exactly why I couldn't be bothered rising to the bait.

Hope he's really hungover this morning

[thebish]

The sources in my head can exclusively reveal that points are no longer important because I say so.

it's about fitness at this stage...

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I accept the need for results on the pitch and in the league table.

But I do think he is right here. And I do like what he is saying.

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem. We can't compete financially. So we must develop young players, build a younger side and compete in a different way. Similar to say Southampton did before their big cash injection recently. WHOEVER is manager will have to buy into that for me, because as it stands with no new investment that will be the only way in the long run we can deliver success.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/

I accept the need for results on the pitch and in the league table.

But I do think he is right here. And I do like what he is saying.

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem. We can't compete financially. So we must develop young players, build a younger side and compete in a different way. Similar to say Southampton did before their big cash injection recently. WHOEVER is manager will have to buy into that for me, because as it stands with no new investment that will be the only way in the long run we can deliver success.

We can compete financially in the division we're in. Utter nonsense to suggest otherwise. I do agree we need to sort things out for the long term, but stop saying we can't compete financially when it is a piss poor excuse.

[thebish]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/

I accept the need for results on the pitch and in the league table.

But I do think he is right here. And I do like what he is saying.

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem.

does that mean you have abandoned your adamantly-argued recent view that we really only needed to buy Dawson and perhaps one more player and it would all have clicked into place and we'd have zoomed up the table and hit the playoffs?

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/

I accept the need for results on the pitch and in the league table.

But I do think he is right here. And I do like what he is saying.

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem. We can't compete financially. So we must develop young players, build a younger side and compete in a different way. Similar to say Southampton did before their big cash injection recently. WHOEVER is manager will have to buy into that for me, because as it stands with no new investment that will be the only way in the long run we can deliver success.

We can compete financially in the division we're in. Utter nonsense to suggest otherwise. I do agree we need to sort things out for the long term, but stop saying we can't compete financially when it is a piss poor excuse.

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not articulating very well. What I mean is that this season there are three clubs at least with bigger budgets than us. So IF our aim is to go up, we can't spend our way there. Next season our budget will reduce (assuming we are still in this league) further as the parachute payments reduce. And with 3 new relegated teams there will likely be more than 3 or 4 sides with bigger budgets than we have. And so forth.

So the situation will get worse. Financial fair play actually ties your spending power to your income. So once the parachute payments have gone completely we're coming back down to money from the TV deal (which won't give us an advantage) and then income the club generates through ticket sales, merchandising etc. Which means that if you take attendances as a very rough guide to that, we're going to be halfway or more down this league in terms of budget.

So in the long term we need to ensure we have a production line of talent. That can a) feed our first team and b) be sold at profit to re-invest in the team.

Southampton did it, so probably they are the model to follow.

[BWFC_Insane]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/

I accept the need for results on the pitch and in the league table.

But I do think he is right here. And I do like what he is saying.

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem.

does that mean you have abandoned your adamantly-argued recent view that we really only needed to buy Dawson and perhaps one more player and it would all have clicked into place and we'd have zoomed up the table and hit the playoffs?

Dawson would make a big difference. You only have to look at the evidence from last season. We aren't able to buy him though, so what does it matter?

[thebish]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/

I accept the need for results on the pitch and in the league table.

But I do think he is right here. And I do like what he is saying.

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem.

does that mean you have abandoned your adamantly-argued recent view that we really only needed to buy Dawson and perhaps one more player and it would all have clicked into place and we'd have zoomed up the table and hit the playoffs?

Dawson would make a big difference. You only have to look at the evidence from last season. We aren't able to buy him though, so what does it matter?

you presented the idea of buying him as the quick fix we need/needed. now you are saying we should stop chasing our tails and looking for quick fixes because it's a long-term problem...

[BWFC_Insane]

you presented the idea of buying him as the quick fix we need/needed. now you are saying we should stop chasing our tails and looking for quick fixes because it's a long-term problem...

It might be a fix to this season but Eddie has put the brakes on. And it is frustrating to me that we are where we are in the league. The best solution is to spend to get back up and spend to stay there. I'd like us to do that. It isn't in my control. If we can't do that then what is the answer?

There are discreet things here though. The current position, manager, squad etc. And I'm not arguing that we should be where we are or that it is good enough. It very clearly isn't.

But there is also the longer term thing of the growing perception that we need to be self sufficient. And how do we achieve that. They're almost separate things in some ways.

My simple point is that if we don't start producing some talent from the academy, whatever happens given the FFP rules in this division and our lack of financial clout in the Premiership, what will happen to us?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/

I accept the need for results on the pitch and in the league table.

But I do think he is right here. And I do like what he is saying.

In my opinion, we have whatever we do as a club, got to stop chasing our tails and looking for a short term fix to a long term problem. We can't compete financially. So we must develop young players, build a younger side and compete in a different way. Similar to say Southampton did before their big cash injection recently. WHOEVER is manager will have to buy into that for me, because as it stands with no new investment that will be the only way in the long run we can deliver success.

We can compete financially in the division we're in. Utter nonsense to suggest otherwise. I do agree we need to sort things out for the long term, but stop saying we can't compete financially when it is a piss poor excuse.

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not articulating very well. What I mean is that this season there are three clubs at least with bigger budgets than us. So IF our aim is to go up, we can't spend our way there. Next season our budget will reduce (assuming we are still in this league) further as the parachute payments reduce. And with 3 new relegated teams there will likely be more than 3 or 4 sides with bigger budgets than we have. And so forth.

So the situation will get worse. Financial fair play actually ties your spending power to your income. So once the parachute payments have gone completely we're coming back down to money from the TV deal (which won't give us an advantage) and then income the club generates through ticket sales, merchandising etc. Which means that if you take attendances as a very rough guide to that, we're going to be halfway or more down this league in terms of budget.

So in the long term we need to ensure we have a production line of talent. That can a) feed our first team and b) be sold at profit to re-invest in the team.

Southampton did it, so probably they are the model to follow.

And if the whole thing was decided was decided by money you'd have to go back through history and change all the league tables. Whilst money is a big variable, it does not dictate our league position in the Championship. We had the biggest budget etc last season for what it was worth. Yes it gets harder, but a good manager with a good strategy will do well. Our strategy of recent years has been piss poor. Lets hope Dougie is sorting that out because all this talk of money is just diverting attention away from the real issues - piss poor performance throughout the club, from top to bottom.

[Ianmooreslovechild]

Glad to see some sense being talked. Paul Ince has done ok some places less so others. Same for most managers. It's about the right place at the right time to some degree. I'm not convinced anyone new would come here and magically transform things. Infact I believe lawrence and freedman are outting the right things in place and that things will turn around for the first team.
We often site allardyce as some kind of messiah but remember his early career and much of his time here was about runs bad and good. The key with allardyce was he had a plan and a vision and he succeeded in applying it.I get the impression freedman has this and it's a rational plan for the type of club(and some may need a reality check here) that Bolton is.
The debate about the quality of the squad is an interesting one. My feeling is that we have some talented players who are obviously underperforming. Most of the players we have seem to be pretty frail mentally,which is why they are playing at the level they are. That kind of thing spread easily but fortunately add a couple of leaders or get a couple of results and it can change pretty quickly.I dont believe we need a new manager for that to happen.
One year is not really a long time to transform what coyle left behind,Freedman has had to work with what he's stuck with and try to improve it without the luxury of big investment or the option to get rid of dead wood.A club with more money may have been able to afford that , we cant. So i'm afraid the obvious answer is patience and have a bit of belief.
The run at the end of last season was a bit misleading , we were nicking results a lot of the time, the current scenario is equally misleading . I suspect by the end of the season we will finish upper mid table and miss out on the playoffs . The more important isue than final placing will be whether the team is starting to have some shape and collective strength and whether younger players are being developed more effectively beyond the first team.In other words is a plan being put into place and does the club have some direction.That is the level on which to judge a manager here.

re Dawson or someone similar.It is what the club needs, not a quick fix.I genuinely believe a solid organiser at the back and a striker who knows where the goal is would transform the players we have.Fingers crossed freedman can get someone in on loan.

[thebish]

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not articulating very well. What I mean is that this season there are three clubs at least with bigger budgets than us.

even if we accept your figures - then that makes us 4th biggest budget - and by your reckoning (budget=success) - very likely to make the playoffs..

playoffs (like the early rounds of cup competitions) are surely not so budget-dependent as they involve on a few games and are more of a lottery..

all of which should mean we are in with a very good chance of promotion, no?

problem is - we're actually bottom of the league...

[bobo the clown]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/10 ... _Freedman/

That reads to me of a manager scared the plug may be pulled and asking the fans to have blind faith whilst saying "it's the long-game you need to look at ... (please)".

A lit like Coyle saying he'd done all the ground work ... and, later, that whoever replaced him would be a very lucky man because everything was in place.


I've said it before and will do again ;
I want Freedman to succeed
He's doing precious little right now to show us that he can
I don't want to be a chop & change club
We have to get our infrastructure right
I don't see how he stays if we blow the next two games

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not articulating very well. What I mean is that this season there are three clubs at least with bigger budgets than us.

even if we accept your figures - then that makes us 4th biggest budget - and by your reckoning (budget=success) - very likely to make the playoffs..

playoffs (like the early rounds of cup competitions) are surely not so budget-dependent as they involve on a few games and are more of a lottery..

all of which should mean we are in with a very good chance of promotion, no?

problem is - we're actually bottom of the league...

But I'm trying to talk long term. Forget who the manager is, or should be or anything like that or current performance.

My basic point is that we need to get the youth setup right now, because in a couple of years if we haven't and aren't bringing those players through I can see it becoming very hard indeed. FFP has changed the picture. If it stays it doesn't help us much, in fact it makes it harder. And if we manage to go up the point still stands. We would need new investment OR to start producing our own players.

[thebish]

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not articulating very well. What I mean is that this season there are three clubs at least with bigger budgets than us.

even if we accept your figures - then that makes us 4th biggest budget - and by your reckoning (budget=success) - very likely to make the playoffs..

playoffs (like the early rounds of cup competitions) are surely not so budget-dependent as they involve on a few games and are more of a lottery..

all of which should mean we are in with a very good chance of promotion, no?

problem is - we're actually bottom of the league...

But I'm trying to talk long term. Forget who the manager is, or should be or anything like that or current performance.

My basic point is that we need to get the youth setup right now, because in a couple of years if we haven't and aren't bringing those players through I can see it becoming very hard indeed. FFP has changed the picture. If it stays it doesn't help us much, in fact it makes it harder. And if we manage to go up the point still stands. We would need new investment OR to start producing our own players.

yes - all of that is true - but you keep saying we can't compete financially and that that has some kind of an impact on where we are now.

even by your figures - we clearly CAN compete financially - this season - you have us as the club with the 4th highest budget in the league.

it's you who makes the 1-1 link between budget and success... given that - we should finish in the playoffs this season,. no?

[BL3]

I'm not using it as an excuse, I'm not articulating very well. What I mean is that this season there are three clubs at least with bigger budgets than us.

even if we accept your figures - then that makes us 4th biggest budget - and by your reckoning (budget=success) - very likely to make the playoffs..

My basic point is that we need to get the youth setup right now, because in a couple of years if we haven't and aren't bringing those players through I can see it becoming very hard indeed. FFP has changed the picture. If it stays it doesn't help us much, in fact it makes it harder. And if we manage to go up the point still stands. We would need new investment OR to start producing our own players.

yes - all of that is true - but you keep saying we can't compete financially and that that has some kind of an impact on where we are now.

even by your figures - we clearly CAN compete financially - this season - you have us as the club with the 4th highest budget in the league.

it's you who makes the 1-1 link between budget and success... given that - we should finish in the playoffs this season,. no?

The three relegated Premier League teams may have bigger budgets than us but we've even outspent Reading.