. . . and take Gartside with you, too.

[bedwetter2]

Lol at Bedwetter. Big man.

Not really, I'm of average height.

I've occasionally put forward views on this forum during the last several years but never, unlike quite a few I could mention, divulged anything of my background as it wasn't relevant. The current conversation regards a topic with which I am familiar through previous experience so I mentioned it. Sorry for offending any 'down with the lads' sensibilities.

Personally, I can't wait until we start talking about robbing banks.

Well start then. We can always find room for a little extra knowledge

[BWFC_Insane]

Bedwetter, given your experience perhaps you could suggest a person spec that we should be matching to fill the managers role?

Putting yourself in Eddie Davies' shoes where the most important thing about protecting his investment is an instant return to the premiership.

What would the criteria be in your opinion?

I will refer you to the subject "Is it time yet?" pages 4 & 5 for some of my views. However a job spec. is difficult to put together without knowing the extent of duties to be encompassed, i.e. a Sam Allardyce type role being responsible for everything, including the cleaners and caterers, or a team manager's role which would be far more limited.

In all I'm not sure that ED would want to draw up the actual spec. as it is more the job of the Chief Exec. ED would certainly want to review it however, and suggest alterations if necessary.

The first criteria for a football club (but not so much in other sectors) would be "can we work with this guy?" This would not appear on a job specification but would be crucial for the club management bearing in mind the egos involved in football. If they were up with recent management techniques they would have a behavioural psychologist present in the interviews. Psychometric tests are invaluable in weeding out the unbalanced and despite the view that results can be faked by a clever interviewee there is no real evidence to support this.

The next items depend upon what the club management want to achieve in the short and long terms. I can imagine that a review of track record would take some part in this although perhaps not as much as you may think. The interviews are a means of drawing out philosophies toward the essential people management requirements.

The interviewee's network of contacts would also be viewed as important and I suspect would also be seen as evidence for or against meritocratic behaviour.

The interviewee's flexibility/willingness to adapt to changed circumstances would be questioned and evidence sought.

The individuals being interviewed would probably be pre-selected upon the basis of a stated single-minded determination to succeed but I would wish to put a variety of different scenarios in front of each interviewee and ask them to select a set of actions which would demonstrate sound reasoning.

Accessibility to staff would also be a requirement and a decent attitude to supporters and the media helpful but not a showstopper.

There's probably a lot more that PG and ED should be including and I have left the second most important one till last - a real in-depth investigation into what people who have worked with the interviewee really think of him, including players, other staff as well as bosses.

Of course, the interviewees would want to know some stuff themselves such as salary, contract term, budget, etc.

However, PG and ED should never lose sight of the fact that the new guy will be paid a lot of money and for that they should want to get a lot of bangs for their bucks.

I doubt that they will conduct a really rigorous process, however. That is not the way it is done in football apparently.

See I don't have an issue with a lot of that. It makes sense. But as someone that has done a lot of recruitment, I can't imagine that anywhere (outside of football) would put someone into such a senior position and not have something in the person spec about "demonstrable evidence of previous performance in a similar role" and probably something requiring said person to have some evidence that they have achieved similar elsewhere, or an equivalent.

In my experience I can't think of one role I've recruited to, where being able to demonstrate that through past performance you can meet the stated objectives is not a MAJOR element. In fact in many cases having DIRECTLY experienced the same challenges and successfully completed them is a requirement in itself.

For example, a senior role in IT Management within the healthcare industry would likely ask for a proven track record in IT management, AND probably knowledge of the healthcare industry and the IT challenges within it. Not always but often. Usually candidates would be desirable if they matched against both of those.

I think you can see where I'm driving at with this.....

[Prufrock]

That managing a football team isn't the same as managing a business?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Psychometric tests are invaluable in weeding out the unbalanced

That's probably why I never get the jobs I want.

[BWFC_Insane]

That managing a football team isn't the same as managing a business?

Kind of. Bedwetter is probably right that principles from outside of football should be applied to football. And I'm sure they are in many areas.

However, a football manager, is being recruited from such a limited pool that I'm not sure it translates across as well.

I firmly believe that Eddie Davies sacked Coyle because he wants us to go up this season. Therefore, if thats the mandate, in the normal world, you'd want someone with a track record for achieving promotion as an essential, probably promotion from the championship, or at least knowledge of the championship.

You therefore would effectively be steering it down a path, and away from the majority of the "fanciful" names that apparently we've never considered in the past cos the "process was wrong".

Otherwise you are assessing candidates against a load of other stuff, that may or may not ultimately match to your business objectives.

[bedwetter2]

Bedwetter, given your experience perhaps you could suggest a person spec that we should be matching to fill the managers role?

Putting yourself in Eddie Davies' shoes where the most important thing about protecting his investment is an instant return to the premiership.

What would the criteria be in your opinion?

I will refer you to the subject "Is it time yet?" pages 4 & 5 for some of my views. However a job spec. is difficult to put together without knowing the extent of duties to be encompassed, i.e. a Sam Allardyce type role being responsible for everything, including the cleaners and caterers, or a team manager's role which would be far more limited.

In all I'm not sure that ED would want to draw up the actual spec. as it is more the job of the Chief Exec. ED would certainly want to review it however, and suggest alterations if necessary.

The first criteria for a football club (but not so much in other sectors) would be "can we work with this guy?" This would not appear on a job specification but would be crucial for the club management bearing in mind the egos involved in football. If they were up with recent management techniques they would have a behavioural psychologist present in the interviews. Psychometric tests are invaluable in weeding out the unbalanced and despite the view that results can be faked by a clever interviewee there is no real evidence to support this.

The next items depend upon what the club management want to achieve in the short and long terms. I can imagine that a review of track record would take some part in this although perhaps not as much as you may think. The interviews are a means of drawing out philosophies toward the essential people management requirements.

The interviewee's network of contacts would also be viewed as important and I suspect would also be seen as evidence for or against meritocratic behaviour.

The interviewee's flexibility/willingness to adapt to changed circumstances would be questioned and evidence sought.

The individuals being interviewed would probably be pre-selected upon the basis of a stated single-minded determination to succeed but I would wish to put a variety of different scenarios in front of each interviewee and ask them to select a set of actions which would demonstrate sound reasoning.

Accessibility to staff would also be a requirement and a decent attitude to supporters and the media helpful but not a showstopper.

There's probably a lot more that PG and ED should be including and I have left the second most important one till last - a real in-depth investigation into what people who have worked with the interviewee really think of him, including players, other staff as well as bosses.

Of course, the interviewees would want to know some stuff themselves such as salary, contract term, budget, etc.

However, PG and ED should never lose sight of the fact that the new guy will be paid a lot of money and for that they should want to get a lot of bangs for their bucks.

I doubt that they will conduct a really rigorous process, however. That is not the way it is done in football apparently.

See I don't have an issue with a lot of that. It makes sense. But as someone that has done a lot of recruitment, I can't imagine that anywhere (outside of football) would put someone into such a senior position and not have something in the person spec about "demonstrable evidence of previous performance in a similar role" and probably something requiring said person to have some evidence that they have achieved similar elsewhere, or an equivalent.

In my experience I can't think of one role I've recruited to, where being able to demonstrate that through past performance you can meet the stated objectives is not a MAJOR element. In fact in many cases having DIRECTLY experienced the same challenges and successfully completed them is a requirement in itself.

For example, a senior role in IT Management within the healthcare industry would likely ask for a proven track record in IT management, AND probably knowledge of the healthcare industry and the IT challenges within it. Not always but often. Usually candidates would be desirable if they matched against both of those.

I think you can see where I'm driving at with this.....

Pre-selection pre-supposed (at least in my mind) that we are not talking to Mars bar salemen, but to individuals who can clearly demonstrate a knowledge of and success in a similar role. It would be important not to preclude individuals who do not exactly match the criteria, however.

[H. Pedersen]

However, a football manager, is being recruited from such a limited pool that I'm not sure it translates across as well.

Maybe, although Villas-Boas seems to have done OK despite never playing professionally. Maybe there's a treasure trove of future managers somewhere that no one has considered . . .

[Prufrock]

Because coaching and playing aren't the same thing?! It's not like they picked him up as a window-cleaner and said, here, have a do. The guys been interested in coaching since he was a teenager.

[thebish]

I think you can see where I'm driving at with this.....

oh aye!! - that we should never have hired Allardyce??

[H. Pedersen]

Because coaching and playing aren't the same thing?! It's not like they picked him up as a window-cleaner and said, here, have a do. The guys been interested in coaching since he was a teenager.

Right, but how many clubs are looking at managers with no real playing experience? Some of the best managers out there were dreadful players. Maybe people who never played at all could be even better?

[Prufrock]

There are loads who never played to a high level though. I just think it is harder to get into if you have no playing experience at all because you don't have the contacts. Unlike ex-players, no-one is going to give a non-ex-player a big job without prior management experience, meaning you have to start from non-league, or as a coach. I think giving it someone because they were a top player is madness, they're different jobs and require different attributes.

[thebish]

I think giving it someone because they were a top player is madness, they're different jobs and require different attributes.

indeed... i'm always bemused by the calls for Gudni or Per or Campo or Hierro or Youri to come and manage us..

[BWFC_Insane]

I think giving it someone because they were a top player is madness, they're different jobs and require different attributes.

indeed... i'm always bemused by the calls for Gudni or Per or Campo or Hierro or Youri to come and manage us..

And me.

But is Ole Gunnar simply being mentioned cos he was a famous player? Don't remember the manager who wins the Norweigan league ever being highly touted by our fans before.....it's bollocks......

[CAPSLOCK]

[danardif1]

I think giving it someone because they were a top player is madness, they're different jobs and require different attributes.

indeed... i'm always bemused by the calls for Gudni or Per or Campo or Hierro or Youri to come and manage us..

And me.

But is Ole Gunnar simply being mentioned cos he was a famous player? Don't remember the manager who wins the Norweigan league ever being highly touted by our fans before.....it's bollocks......

I'd suggest that those who don't rate winning any league in Europe for the first time in that club's history aren't looking hard enough at the game.

Molde are a quality side under Ole and he's not just an 'ex-top player', he spent time at Utd working on all his coaching badges, then had Fergie see enough in him to give him the reserve team job, and then turned Molde into the top side in Norway (no mean feat considering Rosenborg's historical grip on that).

They didn't make it into the Champions League groups, but have settled well into the Europa League, beating FC Copenhagen (a team I've seen in person and rate quite well) 2-1 recently.

If you think he's in management just because he 'knows football', you'd be wrong...

[BWFC_Insane]

I think giving it someone because they were a top player is madness, they're different jobs and require different attributes.

indeed... i'm always bemused by the calls for Gudni or Per or Campo or Hierro or Youri to come and manage us..

And me.

But is Ole Gunnar simply being mentioned cos he was a famous player? Don't remember the manager who wins the Norweigan league ever being highly touted by our fans before.....it's bollocks......

I'd suggest that those who don't rate winning any league in Europe for the first time in that club's history aren't looking hard enough at the game.

Molde are a quality side under Ole and he's not just an 'ex-top player', he spent time at Utd working on all his coaching badges, then had Fergie see enough in him to give him the reserve team job, and then turned Molde into the top side in Norway (no mean feat considering Rosenborg's historical grip on that).

They didn't make it into the Champions League groups, but have settled well into the Europa League, beating FC Copenhagen (a team I've seen in person and rate quite well) 2-1 recently.

If you think he's in management just because he 'knows football', you'd be wrong...

McClaren won the Dutch league with FC Twente, the first time they'd ever won it.

Would you appoint McClaren?

And why not mention any other Norweigan league winning managers in the past?

[Prufrock]

Being an ex-player means we are more likely to have heard of him, but I'm not sure it means people are more likely to want him (not everyone anyway). Did well at United with the reserves, has done brilliantly at Molde. That IMO, makes him worth talking to (and anybody else who has a similar record I just haven't heard of). His playing record is presumably more likely to make people NOT want him, no?

Although he always seemed to be one of the few United players most fans actually liked.

[Wandering Willy]

McClaren won the Dutch league with FC Twente, the first time they'd ever won it.

Would you appoint McClaren?

And why not mention any other Norweigan league winning managers in the past?

To recap - other than Mark Hughes and Megson, who is it you want?

[danardif1]

I think giving it someone because they were a top player is madness, they're different jobs and require different attributes.

indeed... i'm always bemused by the calls for Gudni or Per or Campo or Hierro or Youri to come and manage us..

And me.

But is Ole Gunnar simply being mentioned cos he was a famous player? Don't remember the manager who wins the Norweigan league ever being highly touted by our fans before.....it's bollocks......

I'd suggest that those who don't rate winning any league in Europe for the first time in that club's history aren't looking hard enough at the game.

Molde are a quality side under Ole and he's not just an 'ex-top player', he spent time at Utd working on all his coaching badges, then had Fergie see enough in him to give him the reserve team job, and then turned Molde into the top side in Norway (no mean feat considering Rosenborg's historical grip on that).

They didn't make it into the Champions League groups, but have settled well into the Europa League, beating FC Copenhagen (a team I've seen in person and rate quite well) 2-1 recently.

If you think he's in management just because he 'knows football', you'd be wrong...

McClaren won the Dutch league with FC Twente, the first time they'd ever won it.

Would you appoint McClaren?

And why not mention any other Norweigan league winning managers in the past?

Maybe I would appoint McClaren, he proved his worth in a Dutch league that was still dominated by Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord, which takes some skill both tactically and in the transfer market.

Maybe Norway and it's football has been off the radar unfairly, and I suppose one benefit of what is quite a bloated Europa League is that you get to see some real quality sides from all around Europe. What I'm suggesting is that it takes skill as a manager to bring a team like Molde/Twente up to the top of their respective levels. It's all relative in terms of strength within the leagues, but outside the major nations (and even within them) European football is very competitive at league level at the moment, and to look to nations where previously they had been disregarded as 'lower level' could be a good idea.

[William the White]

McClaren won the Dutch league with FC Twente, the first time they'd ever won it.

Would you appoint McClaren?

You wouldn't? Surprises me given your desire for experience and security. Has a better record in most ways than McCarthey and other 'safe' possible appointees...

It would be a dull and safe appointment, but has usually been your default position - including being the last man on earth that wanted to keep Megson.

I can see the reason why, and, after the last 18 months, find myself tugged towards it. Reluctantly...