Xpro

[Worthy4England]

What if they've taken as many painful decisions as they were able? Many Clubs have been at this particular brink over the years. City were nearly there as recent as 2005, Chelsea in 2003?..Many more will arrive at this point in the future. I'm glad we took a few punts because if we hadn't we'd have still been harking back to the good old days of Ian Greaves and the last time we were in the top flight 35 years ago.

[Andy Waller]

it does relate to spending in the premiership, though - because that has dictated a big part of the bills we have had to pay in prem-contract wages and facilities and a whole shizzle of other stuff. what exactly is it that you think eddie should have done differently so that he could have managed the company into a position you would approve of?

There are only two things, either find investment earlier or reduce costs quicker and further.

I accept neither is easy but he is owner and responsible.

so - your solution would have been what, exactly?

Err, stop spending money we hadn't got??

what - so - errr.. just bring about this situation 3yrs earlier?

Or, limit the spending over 3 years, rather than just stop?

[Enoch]

I can't post figures cos I can't be bothered to look, but has it escaped anyone's notice that we've slashed our running costs over the last three years and we're still running at a loss. To suggest folk ain't been trying is somewhat ridic lous.

And of course everyone's been more than happy with the effect that's had on transfer dealings and performance.

[Worthy4England]

I can't post figures cos I can't be bothered to look, but has it escaped anyone's notice that we've slashed our running costs over the last three years and we're still running at a loss. To suggest folk ain't been trying is somewhat ridic lous.

And of course everyone's been more than happy with the effect that's had on transfer dealings and performance.

Quite. 3 years ago we were still in the Prem..and I suspect, given the funding we had for wages, not expecting to get relegated...the season after (2 years ago) we missed out on the Play-offs - which I suspect ED and PG were gambling on us reaching and sneaking back up...

[StaffsTrotter]

I can't post figures cos I can't be bothered to look, but has it escaped anyone's notice that we've slashed our running costs over the last three years and we're still running at a loss. To suggest folk ain't been trying is somewhat ridic lous.

And of course everyone's been more than happy with the effect that's had on transfer dealings and performance.

The evidence suggests so. Pretty thankless task this running a football club lark, lots of expert ingrates

[StaffsTrotter]

I can't post figures cos I can't be bothered to look, but has it escaped anyone's notice that we've slashed our running costs over the last three years and we're still running at a loss. To suggest folk ain't been trying is somewhat ridic lous.

And of course everyone's been more than happy with the effect that's had on transfer dealings and performance.

Quite. 3 years ago we were still in the Prem..and I suspect, given the funding we had for wages, not expecting to get relegated...the season after (2 years ago) we missed out on the Play-offs - which I suspect ED and PG were gambling on us reaching and sneaking back up...

The wages is one area I'm potentially not happy with. I'm sure I recall hearing PG say that players contracts had inbuilt relegation clauses. Now either this wasnt the case or the club didnt invoke the clauses in an attempt to retain the players. If it was the former then it was incompetent as we then had no choice. If it was the latter, then it was a calculated gamble which unfortunately failed - thats football nothings guaranteed.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't really buy the idea that there are suddenly 4 groups willing to buy us given we now have a severe gap in running costs along with additional loans and debts owed to a variety of parties and there weren't ones who would have bought us a few years back once Eddie decided he'd had enough.

I suspect that the asking price dropping is the swing from then to now. But it is a dangerous game being played. What if no deal ends up happening?

Obviously we don't know the answer to this, but could this have been progressed 3 years back?

[Enoch]

but could this have been progressed 3 years back?

Also seem to think its been 1 in 1 out and open invite to other investors for a while now

I'm with that, certainly since Coyle left the building.

I'm sure it's been known for some time in the world of rich folk with cash to waste on footie that BWFC was available.

Why do you think no one's been trying?

[BWFC_Insane]

but could this have been progressed 3 years back?

Also seem to think its been 1 in 1 out and open invite to other investors for a while now

I'm with that, certainly since Coyle left the building.

I'm sure it's been known for some time in the world of rich folk with cash to waste on footie that BWFC was available.

Why do you think no one's been trying?

My point is that it is hard to believe that suddenly there are 4 who want to deal very quickly out of thin air. Something has changed. Either the asking price, the efforts or both possibly.

[thebish]

It was £33m in debt when he joined the Board. Maybe he shouldn't have bothered and just watch it unfold.

It really bemuses me how good folks are with the benefit of hindsight. Clearly (in my mind anyhow) for a sustained period stretching back to the 1990's we've been living beyond our ability to generate revenue. We could've just accepted that and loitered in the 2nd/3rd division but we got someone prepared to throw money at it.

So let's wipe Rioch and Todd and Allardyce from the record books coz none of them should've happened. We couldn't afford them.

There has clearly been a problem the last couple of years and I suspect a genuine Bolton fan might have taken an overstretched punt to try and get us back in the Prem.

Which would be fine if he'd given it one last gamble. But the gamble was taken with other loans (that we are now finding out about) and means there is debt elsewhere that puts the club in a far less stable position.

It is this that is the problem. Not the debt to Eddie or his backing of the club for many years financially. It is the last few years and the fact that either heads were buried in the sand or undue risks were taken.

I don't see how you can argue that he should have taken one last gamble - but also argue that as a sound businessman he should have ensured that we weren't spending more than we earned...

[StaffsTrotter]

I don't really buy the idea that there are suddenly 4 groups willing to buy us given we now have a severe gap in running costs along with additional loans and debts owed to a variety of parties and there weren't ones who would have bought us a few years back once Eddie decided he'd had enough.

I suspect that the asking price dropping is the swing from then to now. But it is a dangerous game being played. What if no deal ends up happening?

Obviously we don't know the answer to this, but could this have been progressed 3 years back?

could be the 'price' or the removal of any criteria ED may have had to safeguard the best interest of the club. IMO you dont invest all that time, money and emotion (and be an actual fan to boot) without being concerned about what the next guys going to do with it. Problem is, the more it becomes a fire sale, the more likely some of those safeguards might have to fall by the wayside. We shall see ....

[thebish]

So exactly the type of loans we had propping us up, when he joined the Board then?

Yes. And the previous board were widely pilloried for that mess.

I'm not suggesting this is something that is an easy fix or that there is a magic pill to take. Just that above all threatening the future of the football club should have been avoided. Even if it meant so bitterly horrible painful decisions along the way.

Eddie did wonders for us but it is a shame this is how it is ending.

such as? and can you point us to the places where you called for them at the time?

[thebish]

but could this have been progressed 3 years back?

Also seem to think its been 1 in 1 out and open invite to other investors for a while now

I'm with that, certainly since Coyle left the building.

I'm sure it's been known for some time in the world of rich folk with cash to waste on footie that BWFC was available.

Why do you think no one's been trying?

My point is that it is hard to believe that suddenly there are 4 who want to deal very quickly out of thin air. Something has changed. Either the asking price, the efforts or both possibly.

hang on.... you told me earlier this very day that people (though you didn't say who or where) had been talking about 4 different investors for "weeks"... how come you are now claiming it is "suddenly"??

[BWFC_Insane]

Bish, by suddenly I mean relative to the past few years.

Also the difference between Eddie gambling and securing the debt and where we are now is considerable. Gambling the club with his own cash and debt he can write off is one thing, loans from elsewhere for a gamble is far riskier.

[thebish]

Bish, by suddenly I mean relative to the past few years.

so - not really suddenly then!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

I'm sure I recall hearing PG say that players contracts had inbuilt relegation clauses. Now either this wasnt the case or the club didnt invoke the clauses in an attempt to retain the players. If it was the former then it was incompetent as we then had no choice. If it was the latter, then it was a calculated gamble which unfortunately failed - thats football nothings guaranteed.

That was mentioned in the early Allardyce Premier years. I don't recall it being mentioned after the Uefa-qualifying peak.

As I understood it, what (would have) happened under those early two-tier contracts was not that relegation would enable players to become free agents (disadvantageous to the club), but that they willingly signed up to a wage cut if relegated (advantageous to the club).

I guess that's not the sort of contract you pop in front of a Diouf/Anelka type, and maybe as those who'd been around a while (SKD etc) renewed contracts ahead of European seasons those clauses were quietly dropped. I also can't imagine Captain Clappy considering the prospects of failure – perhaps understandably, given that the season before we went down we were FA Cup Semi-Finalists and finished three points off 8th place.

To my mind, that was the 18 months that did the damage – demoralising cup defeat; losing Cahill, Holden and Muamba; relegation; then its hopelessly overconfident aftermath of the chairman publicly announcing "we're aiming to average two points per game". As it was, in that first second-tier season we were a shade under 1.5ppg; in the almost two-and-a-half seasons since, from 110 games we've gained just 122 points.

[Bruce Rioja]

so - your solution would have been what, exactly?

Err, stop spending money we hadn't got??

Like George Osborne then?! Austerity is the key here, or would have been. As you were.

[Worthy4England]

I'm sure I recall hearing PG say that players contracts had inbuilt relegation clauses. Now either this wasnt the case or the club didnt invoke the clauses in an attempt to retain the players. If it was the former then it was incompetent as we then had no choice. If it was the latter, then it was a calculated gamble which unfortunately failed - thats football nothings guaranteed.

That was mentioned in the early Allardyce Premier years. I don't recall it being mentioned after the Uefa-qualifying peak.

As I understood it, what (would have) happened under those early two-tier contracts was not that relegation would enable players to become free agents (disadvantageous to the club), but that they willingly signed up to a wage cut if relegated (advantageous to the club).

I guess that's not the sort of contract you pop in front of a Diouf/Anelka type, and maybe as those who'd been around a while (SKD etc) renewed contracts ahead of European seasons those clauses were quietly dropped. I also can't imagine Captain Clappy considering the prospects of failure – perhaps understandably, given that the season before we went down we were FA Cup Semi-Finalists and finished three points off 8th place.

To my mind, that was the 18 months that did the damage – demoralising cup defeat; losing Cahill, Holden and Muamba; relegation; then its hopelessly overconfident aftermath of the chairman publicly announcing "we're aiming to average two points per game". As it was, in that first second-tier season we were a shade under 1.5ppg; in the almost two-and-a-half seasons since, from 110 games we've gained just 122 points.

I agree DSB. There did seem to be an air that demotion was just a wake-up call and that as we'd just missed out on staying up, it was little more than (as at least one poster on here put it) "a chance to see some grounds we've not visited in a while". There's probably little difference in quality between the top half of the Championship and the lower reaches of the Prem on the way up - different on the way down. 8 of the bottom 11 from the year we went down are now or have been in a lower division (or two divisions) since. Most of them are still down those Divisions and don't look like run away challengers any time soon. It's a tough, tough gig dropping out of the Prem.

[thebish]

I'm sure I recall hearing PG say that players contracts had inbuilt relegation clauses. Now either this wasnt the case or the club didnt invoke the clauses in an attempt to retain the players. If it was the former then it was incompetent as we then had no choice. If it was the latter, then it was a calculated gamble which unfortunately failed - thats football nothings guaranteed.

That was mentioned in the early Allardyce Premier years. I don't recall it being mentioned after the Uefa-qualifying peak.

As I understood it, what (would have) happened under those early two-tier contracts was not that relegation would enable players to become free agents (disadvantageous to the club), but that they willingly signed up to a wage cut if relegated (advantageous to the club).

I guess that's not the sort of contract you pop in front of a Diouf/Anelka type, and maybe as those who'd been around a while (SKD etc) renewed contracts ahead of European seasons those clauses were quietly dropped. I also can't imagine Captain Clappy considering the prospects of failure – perhaps understandably, given that the season before we went down we were FA Cup Semi-Finalists and finished three points off 8th place.

To my mind, that was the 18 months that did the damage – demoralising cup defeat; losing Cahill, Holden and Muamba; relegation; then its hopelessly overconfident aftermath of the chairman publicly announcing "we're aiming to average two points per game". As it was, in that first second-tier season we were a shade under 1.5ppg; in the almost two-and-a-half seasons since, from 110 games we've gained just 122 points.

we're less than half that now this season...

[Gudnib]

I started this thread wondering whether Deano would be our salvation. If he sells his house, assuming there is no mortgage, it might cover two or three weeks PAYE bill. But maybe he's got more than seems evident and has some really wealthy mates.