Rumour has it.............

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Hopefully he'd help us belt up at the back #astrojoke

Or:

Oh goody, another centre-back

[thebish]

from Maastricht?? that's be a wee christmas treaty for us from Lennon...

[EverSoYouri]

Commissar NiKolai Kuipers, comrade if you please.

[William the White]

Non-military unnatural deaths under Nicholas in the Khodynka Tragedy,the pogroms, Bloody Sunday and the 1905 Revolution suppression were numbered in the thousands, to which were added 3.3 million soldiers in WW1. Under Stalin the most reliable estimates place this number around 30 million, plus another 20 million deaths in WW2 (The lowest estimated for non-military unnatural deaths is 20 million and the highest over 60 million). Nicholas tended to imprison dissidents (including Lenin), while Stalin preferred execution.

What are these 'most reliable estimates'? I mean, Stalin was an unspeakable murderous bastard, whose actions stained the socialist cause profoundly, but surely you cannot be claiming 30 million deaths due to political suppression? Anne Applebaum in her Pullitzer Prize account, Gulag: a History offers a recorded figure of deaths in the camps of 2,749,163. She, I'm sure correctly, says this has to be an underestimate. She offers the figure in terms of political executions of 786,098 and says most historians 'consider this plausible'. This is hugely more political executions than under the Tsars, without question, including the bestialities of Ivan the Terrible, Peter and Catherine. Your central point is built on solid ground.

Obviously we are dealing here with the kinds of figures that make the mind reel and the spirit shrink... But it's an enormous stretch to your 30 million... (I'm presuming you are trying to compare like with like - though it isn't easy, I realise - but what are you including in the 30 million? The phrase 'unnatural deaths' sounds like it might be a little slippery. What does it mean? And how has it been calculated for the tsarist years? Are the numbers limited to the reign of Nicholas II, and how is this calculated? If so, this is bordering on ludicrous as a valid comparison.)

[Enoch]

I don't know. Mr Wentworth just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble at the mill, that's all.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Non-military unnatural deaths under Nicholas in the Khodynka Tragedy,the pogroms, Bloody Sunday and the 1905 Revolution suppression were numbered in the thousands, to which were added 3.3 million soldiers in WW1. Under Stalin the most reliable estimates place this number around 30 million, plus another 20 million deaths in WW2 (The lowest estimated for non-military unnatural deaths is 20 million and the highest over 60 million). Nicholas tended to imprison dissidents (including Lenin), while Stalin preferred execution.

What are these 'most reliable estimates'? I mean, Stalin was an unspeakable murderous bastard, whose actions stained the socialist cause profoundly, but surely you cannot be claiming 30 million deaths due to political suppression? Anne Applebaum in her Pullitzer Prize account, Gulag: a History offers a recorded figure of deaths in the camps of 2,749,163. She, I'm sure correctly, says this has to be an underestimate. She offers the figure in terms of political executions of 786,098 and says most historians 'consider this plausible'. This is hugely more political executions than under the Tsars, without question, including the bestialities of Ivan the Terrible, Peter and Catherine. Your central point is built on solid ground.

Obviously we are dealing here with the kinds of figures that make the mind reel and the spirit shrink... But it's an enormous stretch to your 30 million... (I'm presuming you are trying to compare like with like - though it isn't easy, I realise - but what are you including in the 30 million? The phrase 'unnatural deaths' sounds like it might be a little slippery. What does it mean? And how has it been calculated for the tsarist years? Are the numbers limited to the reign of Nicholas II, and how is this calculated? If so, this is bordering on ludicrous as a valid comparison.)

Without boring those looking for footie rumours, there is for example the question of famine genocide in the Ukraine in 1932-33 - the Holodomor. There is no question that the central government took huge amounts of foodstuffs from Ukraine to be held for 'military' use. There is also no question that this policy was aimed at destroying the kulaks and introducing collective farms. It is also true that millions died. The exact number is subject to some debate. Sources claim deaths in a range between 5 million and 14 million. My own view is that the lower number is more accurate owing to questionable demographic methodologies of those who studied the question. The per capita rate of starvation amongst Kazaks was higher, but only about a million in total.

Soviet historian Medevev (1989) estimated 20 million deaths as follows: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953. Obviously, Medevev is estimating 20 million deaths from his totals of 31-43 million who fell afould of Stalin.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn stated he believed the total to be 60 million.
British historian Norman Davies gave the number of 50 million on his "Europe a history" (1997).
There are other estimates, even higher than Solzhenitsyn, but the bottom line is that Soviet record keeping was not as reliable as, for example, the Nazi equivalent. Still, as Stalin is alleged to have said, "One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.”

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Not sure this thread ever got going, but it definitely souks ( ) more than the last one

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Not sure this thread ever got going, but it definitely souks ( ) more than the last one

I dunno, it's been more educational... As one who hasn't got time to peruse Banter etc, it has been an interesting excursion and a polite to-and-fro between respected, respectful elder statesmen...

[LeverEnd]

Non-military unnatural deaths under Nicholas in the Khodynka Tragedy,the pogroms, Bloody Sunday and the 1905 Revolution suppression were numbered in the thousands, to which were added 3.3 million soldiers in WW1. Under Stalin the most reliable estimates place this number around 30 million, plus another 20 million deaths in WW2 (The lowest estimated for non-military unnatural deaths is 20 million and the highest over 60 million). Nicholas tended to imprison dissidents (including Lenin), while Stalin preferred execution.

What are these 'most reliable estimates'? I mean, Stalin was an unspeakable murderous bastard, whose actions stained the socialist cause profoundly, but surely you cannot be claiming 30 million deaths due to political suppression? Anne Applebaum in her Pullitzer Prize account, Gulag: a History offers a recorded figure of deaths in the camps of 2,749,163. She, I'm sure correctly, says this has to be an underestimate. She offers the figure in terms of political executions of 786,098 and says most historians 'consider this plausible'. This is hugely more political executions than under the Tsars, without question, including the bestialities of Ivan the Terrible, Peter and Catherine. Your central point is built on solid ground.

Obviously we are dealing here with the kinds of figures that make the mind reel and the spirit shrink... But it's an enormous stretch to your 30 million... (I'm presuming you are trying to compare like with like - though it isn't easy, I realise - but what are you including in the 30 million? The phrase 'unnatural deaths' sounds like it might be a little slippery. What does it mean? And how has it been calculated for the tsarist years? Are the numbers limited to the reign of Nicholas II, and how is this calculated? If so, this is bordering on ludicrous as a valid comparison.)

Without boring those looking for footie rumours, there is for example the question of famine genocide in the Ukraine in 1932-33 - the Holodomor. There is no question that the central government took huge amounts of foodstuffs from Ukraine to be held for 'military' use. There is also no question that this policy was aimed at destroying the kulaks and introducing collective farms. It is also true that millions died. The exact number is subject to some debate. Sources claim deaths in a range between 5 million and 14 million. My own view is that the lower number is more accurate owing to questionable demographic methodologies of those who studied the question. The per capita rate of starvation amongst Kazaks was higher, but only about a million in total.

Soviet historian Medevev (1989) estimated 20 million deaths as follows: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953. Obviously, Medevev is estimating 20 million deaths from his totals of 31-43 million who fell afould of Stalin.

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn stated he believed the total to be 60 million.
British historian Norman Davies gave the number of 50 million on his "Europe a history" (1997).
There are other estimates, even higher than Solzhenitsyn, but the bottom line is that Soviet record keeping was not as reliable as, for example, the Nazi equivalent. Still, as Stalin is alleged to have said, "One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.”

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Not sure this thread ever got going, but it definitely souks ( ) more than the last one

I dunno, it's been more educational... As one who hasn't got time to peruse Banter etc, it has been an interesting excursion and a polite to-and-fro between respected, respectful elder statesmen...

As much as I might agree, I prefer my transfer thread to do what it says on the tin. Lets face it, even our Enfield dwelling friend has lost interest

[Gary the Enfield]

Not sure this thread ever got going, but it definitely souks ( ) more than the last one

I dunno, it's been more educational... As one who hasn't got time to peruse Banter etc, it has been an interesting excursion and a polite to-and-fro between respected, respectful elder statesmen...

As much as I might agree, I prefer my transfer thread to do what it says on the tin. Lets face it, even our Enfield dwelling friend has lost interest

Still here. Just watching.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Not sure this thread ever got going, but it definitely souks ( ) more than the last one

I dunno, it's been more educational... As one who hasn't got time to peruse Banter etc, it has been an interesting excursion and a polite to-and-fro between respected, respectful elder statesmen...

As much as I might agree, I prefer my transfer thread to do what it says on the tin. Lets face it, even our Enfield dwelling friend has lost interest

Still here. Just watching.

As thread sponsor you're responsible for hyping it up surely?