Away form

[officer_dibble]

It is fairly marginal, but most of the time football is fairly marginal. I think if you look at it like 'If we held on here, if he'd scored that, if he hadn't saved that ect' you could make a case for us being on any number of points you like (8 of our 12 defeats all season have only been by the odd goal). I don't think arbitarily stopping a game at a random point and saying 'We could've taken a point here' suggests that much.

Our away form is shit, and over the season I think that is evident. We've been too easy to beat. That said, I don't really know what I'd do to change it, under Allardyce we had years where we were good at home and shit away, then vice versa. It just seems to be something that happens. Next season no doubt will see a totally different set of results

Apart from - we will lose at Fulham - and we will beat west ham

Been away, paid no attention to last night, but I imagined the reaction would come v Arsenal, and we'd capitulate miserably at Fulham. Seems about right.

I don't know the answer, formation wants a think, but any team that starts Tamir Cohen in the centre of the park is going to struggle, particularly away from home.

I think the team lacks a bit of leadership personally...a centre half or a centre mid barking some orders out and driving the team forwards. Heads do tend to drop away from home, though we have dragged ourselves back into games more this season than any i can remember for a while in fairness. I don't think Coyle is oblivious to this - hopefully it will come with time.

[irie Cee Bee]

It just seem to me that away from home, our players are in a hurry to get rid of the ball. They lack the confidence that they have in front of our home crowd.

The question for me is why?

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

It is fairly marginal, but most of the time football is fairly marginal. I think if you look at it like 'If we held on here, if he'd scored that, if he hadn't saved that ect' you could make a case for us being on any number of points you like (8 of our 12 defeats all season have only been by the odd goal). I don't think arbitarily stopping a game at a random point and saying 'We could've taken a point here' suggests that much.

Our away form is shit, and over the season I think that is evident. We've been too easy to beat. That said, I don't really know what I'd do to change it, under Allardyce we had years where we were good at home and shit away, then vice versa. It just seems to be something that happens. Next season no doubt will see a totally different set of results

Indeed, given the parameters pretty much anything could be argued. And frequently is...

I'm not sure our away form is shit, but the results are certainly disappointing compared to the home results (fourth worst compared to fourth best). We'll get the occasional caning by chasing the game - we've known that since Sunderland away last season.

Obvious of course but the first goal is always likely to be crucial: we average 2.31ppg when we score first (which we have 16 times), which is the 7th best in the division, and 0.47ppg when we concede first - 12th best in the division. The opposition has scored first 17 times (more than we have) and we've lost 11 of these, coming back for five draws and one win (Villa at home). So if we concede first, there's a two in three chance we'll get nowt – and it seems the same is true for most of the division.

So it does strike me that we could and perhaps should be a tighter unit away from home. "How, DSB?" ask some. "Get on with it man, the pub awaits" cry others. Well, despite Coyle's apparent devotion to 4-4-2 I would think and hope we have the flexibility to adapt within that format, including when necessary to put more men between them and the goal - without having to make personnel changes.

For instance, Elmander has played in central midfield a bit and wide midfield a lot and has rarely looked workshy even when up top; it's surely not beyond wit for him to drop deep away when we don't have the ball, with the wingers looking to spring as per the currently vogueish 4-2-3-1 (or even Allardyce's old 4-1-2-2-1). To wit:

At home, or chasing the game away:

**********Davies***Elmander**********
Taylor***Holden***Muamba***Chungy

Away, plays more like:

**********Davies************
Taylor***Elmander***Chungy
*****Holden***Muamba*****

The more advanced midfielders choke off the supply, leaving the 'central' midfielders to pick up those pesky runners or act as a second wave. Too often we're getting caught by movement between the lines - especially recently, when it's frequently been the case that if you bypass Muamba you get a free run at our centre-backs.

Just a thought, a bored thought, waiting for half-five pub-time. We're not far off, we just might need to tweak down the gung-ho a little away from home... at least until we go behind...

[boltonboris]

DSB rightly pointed out that runners behind our (pretty flat at times) midfield are given free rein and as I pointed out yesterday, Dempsey is a fine example of this.. He drops off and sits in the 'hole' when you don't have a disciplined defensive midfielder there, it's nigh on impossible to mark / stop him. united do this perfectly with a dropper using another forward as a wall to ping a ball off and it creates havoc and pulls the back 4 all over the place.. Especially if they have wingers with a bit of nous.

The only way to stop that is for your unit to sit too deep to give the forwards a chance, or to designate 1 player (Muamba for us) to plug that gap, man mark the danger man and hope with that the 10 v 10 everywhere else, our 10 are better (which I believe we could've been against Fulham)

[Lord Kangana]

If we're looking for an away formation from the players we already have, then I'd switch to a 4-3-3 with Taylor, Holden and Muamba sitting and picking up the pieces, and Lee and Davies (M) playing off either Davies (SK) or Elmander.

That way, Taylor's pace, or lack thereof won't be exposed on the wing, but his work and set piece ability can stilll be kept in the team, Lee and the Black Country Messi can also fill in when looking for the ball, but both are capable of a bit of magic on the break. Lee especially seems to A) link up well with SKD B) be capable of getting beyond the front man.

Also makes up for Davies (M)'s lack of bite in midfield.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Doghshit isn't it?

[lampaul]

would like to see pace @ the front in our next away game!!!

[thebish]

what's the current thinking on WHY it shoud be considered harder for professional footballers to play away from home?

is it...

a) un-nerved by the pitch feeling slightly different
b) un-nerved by having more opposition fans
c) being tired after a coach journey
d) received wisdon that it is harder to play away from home
e) summat else...

[Lord Kangana]

There is a psychological reason.

Interestingly enough, the % difference between home and away victories was the least in the few years directly after the second world war. Apparantly because many young men were used to being in threating environments outside of their comfort zone...

Anyway, in short, there is a (provable) scenario at play here.

[thebish]

that's as I thought...

Is it accepted that this is incurable? What have clubs done to try to counteract this? (I know many of them employ psychologists...)

[CAPSLOCK]

I dunno, but I doubt 'let's keep doing what we're doing and stick our fingers in our ears' is high up on the list of succesful strategies

[truewhite15]

I dunno, but I doubt 'let's keep doing what we're doing and stick our fingers in our ears' is high up on the list of succesful strategies

I've no doubt things will change next season. Coyle's still learning, so are we.

Cheer up, it's sunny outside!

[Lord Kangana]

that's as I thought...

Is it accepted that this is incurable? What have clubs done to try to counteract this? (I know many of them employ psychologists...)

From my recollection (either 4-4-2 or WSC or someone did a large article on this a few years ago), its nigh on impossible to psychologically "fool" the players in to being good at both. Thats why teams that are very good away from home, and simultaneously good at home, are as rare as rocking horse shit.

Basically, you build up the fortress in your mind and collective psyche, thus losing its benefit (psychologically) when away from it, or you don't, and see the benefits away, but surrender a few at home.

In short, you have to have some absolutely brilliant players (mentally) to conquer this. They don't come cheap. Even United are not infallible.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Even United are not infallible.

Very far from it this season - 49 points from 51 at home, but only W5 D9 L4 away - Arsenal, Chelsea, Citeh and Spurs all have better away PPGs

[BWFC_Insane]

1 Arsenal 18 9 6 3 39 23 16 33
2 Manchester United 19 6 9 4 30 25 5 27
3 Chelsea 17 7 5 5 29 17 12 26
4 Manchester City 17 7 4 6 23 19 4 25
5 Tottenham Hotspur 17 6 5 6 23 26 -3 23
6 Everton 19 4 8 7 20 23 -3 20
7 Newcastle United 18 5 4 9 13 28 -15 19
8 Blackpool 18 5 3 10 22 37 -15 18
9 West Bromwich Albion 17 4 4 9 22 35 -13 16
10 Fulham 19 2 9 8 17 21 -4 15
11 Liverpool 17 4 3 10 17 27 -10 15
12 Wigan Athletic 17 3 6 8 16 26 -10 15
13 Sunderland 17 3 6 8 15 28 -13 15
14 Aston Villa 18 3 5 10 20 39 -19 14
15 Birmingham City 17 2 7 8 16 32 -16 13
16 West Ham United 18 2 7 9 17 36 -19 13
17 Stoke City 18 3 3 12 15 27 -12 12
18 Bolton Wanderers 19 2 5 12 16 30 -14 11
19 Blackburn Rovers 18 3 2 13 20 43 -23 11
20 Wolverhampton Wanderers 19 2 3 14 13 37 -24 9

The "away form" league table.

Does not make pretty reading. I can only imagine we'd be bottom if you took the second half of the season away form. In fact since winning away at Wolves in November our away form has been as bad as can be imagined. Since then we've taken 1 point.

Perhaps the work rate involved in the Coyle system catches up with them and this manifests itself later on or perhaps we were just "found out" away from home as the season went on.

Either way something has to change in our away performances and form because if we take this form into next season it ain't likely to be pretty, small margins or not!