Don't tell Dougie - It's nostalgia!

[coffeymagic]

I'm sure most of you would have watched Sky Sports edited highlights of the Colin Todd 'just another game' Playoff Final v Watford and the BSA 'show your superiority' Preston one a couple of years later.

Now I liked Colin Todd, the football we played under him in the 347pts/8,304 goal season was some of the best I have ever seen us play and, from the highlights we certainly had the chance to have the game wrapped up before Watford scored their first.

What amazed me though was the gulf in class between the two teams. Check this out.

1999 v Watford.

Banks, Cox, Elliott, Frandsen, Todd, Fish, Johansen, Jensen, Gudjohnsen, Taylor, Gardner. Subs - Hansen, Sellers, Bergsson.

2001 v Preston.

Clarke, Bergsson, Hendry, Barness, Charlton, Frandsen, Farrelly, Gardner, Nolan, Holdsworth, Hansen. Subs. Elliott, Whitlow, Ricketts, Banks and Ian Sodding Marshall for Christ's sake.

I know it's really all down to 'who takes their chances on the day' and PNE had some good openings before Gaz Faz lit up the Millenium Stadium but look at the quality in Todd's side v the one in Big Sam's.

All right, a few players appear in both squads but out of the 1999 side there's a few I wouldn't mind in the team right now whereas I'd probably only take Nolan, Elliott, Gudni and Per from Sam's.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say here it just struck me taht there seemed to be such a gulf in playing quality that I can't believe we blew it v Watford rather than did it v Preston.

Was it the manager? Was it team spirit? Was it luck?

Have I just wasted ten minutes of my life and two minutes of yours?

I don't know and I suppose we never will.

[BWFC_Insane]

Todd was a shit manager.

[Loyal White]

Todd had an incredible eye for a player and the stars aligned for that 98 point season and everything fell into place.

Yet he will always be the manager who pitted Curcic and Sellars against Keane and Butt. And he will always be the manager that spent £12m (back when that was a huge amount) yet got us relegated. And who had a team containing Jensen, Gudjohnsen, Frandsen, Bergsson, Gardner et al and didn't get us promoted...

In fact, of that 1999 team (including the subs) only Banks, Todd and Taylor didn't play pro-longed periods of top division football.

I do think if we'd been more successful during Todd's tenure (as we should have been given the teams we had) I don't think our current financial mess would be as bad.

[BWFC_Insane]

Todd had an incredible eye for a player and the stars aligned for that 98 point season and everything fell into place.

Yet he will always be the manager who pitted Curcic and Sellars against Keane and Butt. And he will always be the manager that spent £12m (back when that was a huge amount) yet got us relegated. And who had a team containing Jensen, Gudjohnsen, Frandsen, Bergsson, Gardner et al and didn't get us promoted...

In fact, of that 1999 team (including the subs) only Banks, Todd and Taylor didn't play pro-longed periods of top division football.

I do think if we'd been more successful during Todd's tenure (as we should have been given the teams we had) I don't think our current financial mess would be as bad.

Bingo. In one. Nail on head. Ding Ding Ding Ding.

[thebish]

I'll go with the underachievement - but I don't think it is a given that we wouldn't be in the financial state we are now...

[BWFC_Insane]

I'll go with the underachievement - but I don't think it is a given that we wouldn't be in the financial state we are now...

It's not a given. But our failure to stay up left the club in a precarious position. Then failing to go back up meant we had a lot of bank debt that was being recalled. And had to start selling off the crown jewels cheaply.

I mean the majority of the debt accrued through the construction of the Reebok. Not Todd's fault.

But he spent £13M (at the time a fortune) and had a perfectly good side that he couldn't keep up.

Then got more to spend on relegation and couldn't get that side (arguably very good at the time) promoted.

Nice bloke, probably a good coach, but incompetent as a manager and that contributed to the mess we got ourselves in when he walked out having to sell Frandsen to keep the club from administration.

[thebish]

I'll go with the underachievement - but I don't think it is a given that we wouldn't be in the financial state we are now...

It's not a given. But our failure to stay up left the club in a precarious position. Then failing to go back up meant we had a lot of bank debt that was being recalled. And had to start selling off the crown jewels cheaply.

I mean the majority of the debt accrued through the construction of the Reebok. Not Todd's fault.

But he spent £13M (at the time a fortune) and had a perfectly good side that he couldn't keep up.

Then got more to spend on relegation and couldn't get that side (arguably very good at the time) promoted.

Nice bloke, probably a good coach, but incompetent as a manager and that contributed to the mess we got ourselves in when he walked out having to sell Frandsen to keep the club from administration.

indeed - but (as you seem to have agreed) our current massive debt isn't really down to Todd... we've built most of that up a good few years after his departure... your "Bingo. In one. Nail on head. Ding Ding Ding Ding" made it sound like it was pretty much a given!

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

1999 v Watford: Banks, Cox, Elliott, Frandsen, Todd, Fish, Johansen, Jensen, Gudjohnsen, Taylor, Gardner. Subs - Hansen, Sellers, Bergsson.

2001 v Preston: Clarke, Bergsson, Hendry, Barness, Charlton, Frandsen, Farrelly, Gardner, Nolan, Holdsworth, Hansen. Subs. Elliott, Whitlow, Ricketts, Banks and Ian Sodding Marshall for Christ's sake.

...out of the 1999 side there's a few I wouldn't mind in the team right now whereas I'd probably only take Nolan, Elliott, Gudni and Per from Sam's.

I'd welcome any of that 2001 back four - plus Gardner and Mick Whitlow, besides the ones you;ve mentioned.

Know what you mean though. It's a sum-of-parts job: Sam excelled at maximising players; Todd didn't always, although he did indeed give us the finest season of my BW-supporting life.

Todd spent money, but Hargreaves signed the cheques. Not many managers don't spend what they're told to. You can't blame Todd for spending a budget he'd had signed off.

Had Todd kept us up, would we have appointed Sam? True, Todd wouldn't have stayed forever, but don't forget we turned to Sam in financial desperation. Would we have done so had we been in our second or third successive PL season?

[coffeymagic]

Just rewind a bit...

...he [Todd] will always be the manager who pitted Curcic and Sellars against Keane and Butt.

What would you have done? Curcic was the best player at the club by a country mile and Sellers was a more than able pro.

This was Manchester United we were playing here.

Branagan, Green, Coleman, Fairclough, Phillips, Curcic, Sellars, Thompson, Blake, Lee and Daffy De Freitas.

Versus. (Eventual champions for the how many'th time?)

Schmeichel, P Neville, Irwin, Bruce, Pallister, Beckham, Butt, Keane, Cole, Cantona, Giggs.

I can't remember who wasn/wasn't injured but who would you have replaced Tomo, Lee, Sellars and Curcic with? Andy Todd? Gerry Taggart? Was McAteer still at the club?

Whoever Todd would have picked that day would have been on the losing side. Would it have been different if that early (only) effort from Sasa not rattled the bar? Yeah, it would have been 1-6.

PLUS! That was the dream team season of Roy and Colin wasn't it? By the time McFarland got the boot (he's up there with Megson and Neal in my book) we were already doomed although we still went down I'm sure we started playing better and actually won a few.

Nah, Todd was a good manager.

[Lord Kangana]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

PLUS! That was the dream team season of Roy and Colin wasn't it? By the time McFarland got the boot (he's up there with Megson and Neal in my book) we were already doomed although we still went down I'm sure we started playing better and actually won a few.

As you may know, TC, I was inspired by your Normid Nomad to help with Tripe 'n' Trotters, and by that season I was joint editor. In the aftermath of relegation I researched a league table from the point McFarland was sacked (or possibly Ian Porterfield hired as Todd's assistant) and our form was nearer mid-table than relegation.

[BWFC_Insane]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

A manager who you frequently used as an example of a "shit manager" and someone who you thought was "worse than even Coyle" (and a therefore reason NOT to sack Coyle) managed 105 points a few years later........

[coffeymagic]

As you may know, TC, I was inspired by your Normid Nomad....

That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said. A little tear rolled down my cheek when I read that.

You did mean inspired in a 'good way' didn't you?

[bwfcdan94]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

Exactly, I obviously don't remember his time as manager but from what I can gather he was superb, keep in mind that 98 broke the record for 1st division points. In fact from what I know of Colin Todd I would have him over Our Dougie.

[thebish]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

A manager who you frequently used as an example of a "shit manager" and someone who you thought was "worse than even Coyle" (and a therefore reason NOT to sack Coyle) managed 105 points a few years later........

ooooff BWFCi bishes LK!

[BWFC_Insane]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

Exactly, I obviously don't remember his time as manager but from what I can gather he was superb, keep in mind that 98 broke the record for 1st division points. In fact from what I know of Colin Todd I would have him over Our Dougie.

Trust me Dan you wouldn't. To be fair to Todd he or his scouts had a great eye for players. However as a manager overall he was Owen Coyle standard.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

As you may know, TC, I was inspired by your Normid Nomad....

That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said. A little tear rolled down my cheek when I read that.

You did mean inspired in a 'good way' didn't you?

I did indeed. Fanzines, eh? Might have to explain it to some of our younger viewers.

[Lord Kangana]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

A manager who you frequently used as an example of a "shit manager" and someone who you thought was "worse than even Coyle" (and a therefore reason NOT to sack Coyle) managed 105 points a few years later........

If you're referring to the Ginger Hatchet man, I think you willfind that I simply thought he was a total c*nt. And the reason I'll always prefer Coyle is because he isn't Megson.

Interesting aside, was chatting to a couple Wednesday fans the other day. They thought he was a total c*nt too. I call that the wisdom of the crowd.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

A manager who you frequently used as an example of a "shit manager" and someone who you thought was "worse than even Coyle" (and a therefore reason NOT to sack Coyle) managed 105 points a few years later........

If you're referring to the Ginger Hatchet man, I think you willfind that I simply thought he was a total c*nt. And the reason I'll always prefer Coyle is because he isn't Megson.

Surely he can't be referring to Megson. How could a team of his tot up 105 points in a season?

Sunderland got 105 in 98/99 under Peter Reid.

[BWFC_Insane]

Shit managers don't assemble teams that gain 98 points in a season.

A manager who you frequently used as an example of a "shit manager" and someone who you thought was "worse than even Coyle" (and a therefore reason NOT to sack Coyle) managed 105 points a few years later........

If you're referring to the Ginger Hatchet man, I think you willfind that I simply thought he was a total c*nt. And the reason I'll always prefer Coyle is because he isn't Megson.

Interesting aside, was chatting to a couple Wednesday fans the other day. They thought he was a total c*nt too. I call that the wisdom of the crowd.

I wasn't referring to him. You're obsessed!